Sorry, rex, I would never pronounce the first sound in carrier and barrier as the sound in tare. Webster's even shows a difference. Carrier and barrier are more like cat; tare is like there, as you mentioned.

in Italian:
c before i = ch
vowel i = ee (English long e)
qu = kw
vowel e = ay (English long a)

cheen-kway tayrr-rray

Roll those r's!

... and in Sicilia, the "c" is sometimes soft, even before "e" and "i" - perfect example is the mountain town of Erice, with a "shhhhh" - always quite and beautiful, regardless of how one says its name.

perhaps the pronunciation difference in the US between mare and merry is something only a Jesuit would appreciate.

Really, there is no discernible difference in the way most Americans pronounce the vowel in care/bare/carrier vs. merrier to my ear, and it's not because of the South. Oral language is fast and not that specific and these vowels aren't that different even purely. And "cher" isn't an English word, anyway. I really don't think it makes any difference for someone who doesn't know Italian anyway to debate over whether the vowel in question is pronounced as in barrier vs. merrier.

I knew someone who said she thought it was "practically illiterate" for someone to pronounce cot and caught the same way. I thought the same thing of that comment as the debate between carrier vs. cher

I for one LOVE this discussion, even though we are a little off the path that links one terra to the others!

Nope..."tare" in my accent does not have the same sound as "barrier," but the people where i live would pronounce it that way.

In NYC, my accent, which has mellowed BTW, would have me pronounce "ferry" as "feh-ree," but here in Western NY it would be the same as "fairy." The accent here is very mid-western. Likewise, i say "sure"...as in "shoor," but here they say "sher." Go fig-ya!

My teacher, who grew up in a small town between rome and Abruzzo would also say sheeng-kway

I'm told by italians that my accent, non e' mica male.

Christina, I'm quite surprised by the "edge" to your post. Obviously, personas don't travel from one board to the next. Hope it's not me to whom you refer as the one who doesn't know any italian. I doubt that those who live in italy are the only one's who can make themselves understood. I, for one, find the discussion of language and accents always interesting and entertaining.

<<there is no discernible difference in the way most Americans pronounce the vowel in care/bare/carrier vs. merrier to my ear>>

Well, there certainly is to MY ear! The "a" in "carrier" is much flatter than the "a" in care and bare. And "merrier," well, that's altogether different.It's an "e" sound for one thing, not even a variant on an "a" sound.

These seemingly minute differences in pronounciation is what language is all about - and knowing the differences among them, and being able to pronounce the distinctions, is what enables people to learn and speak foreign languages with acceptable accuracy.

SfINK ter?

It is interesting the way everyone has an opinion on how to pronounce Cinque Terre...
In Italy every region has a different way to pronounce certain words, and just like in America the accent varies from region to region..Therefore, if you ask somebody from Sicily to pronounce certain words, he would pronounce it a certain way and it will sound different from someone that is from Venice... So, everyone is a winner in pronouncing Cinque Terre...

Actually, Kismetchimera, that's not true. One of the first things one learns when studying Italian is that it is one of the most rock-solid languages as far as pronounciation is concerned.I'm not talking about regional differences, but about basic pronounciation. Italian words can be counted upon to be pronounced the same way, all the time, because the rules of pronounciation are simple and straightforward. That's what makes Italian one of the easiest Romance languages to learn. Of course there are some differences in the hardness or softness of the consonants, which have been discussed here already, but this American view that "everyone is a winner" in pronouncing Cinque Terre or anything else in Italian is a myth. It's not as though there are myriad variations, even though there are myriad Italian populations. The American viewpoint that so many different variations are all acceptable for anything, including the pronounciation of an Italian placename simply doesn't apply here.

Some of you might like to play with this: http://actor.loquendo.com/actordemo/default.asp

For what it's worth, I tried to bring some of this thread's debated points into the breakfast conversation with our youngest daughter this morning - - she is planning to be a high school teacher AND (not this is really relevant, but...) is taking Italian as our her college second language, after four years of Latin in high school.

And she was of the opinion that "it" was much ado about nothing - - and that it was unlikely to be of interest among high school English teachers. I won't try to speculate as to whether she represents a mainstream view of the English teachers of the future, nor of the teachers she has had in the past x years.

She went on to say that phonetics, pronunciation and laying the foundation for good spelling is essentially the province of elemntary school teachers.

I tried to disagree, but she didn't budge. Even brought up what I had perceived to be a "movement" (and no doubt some backlas counter-movements) to offer the teaching of "more standard" diction (translation: "white"?) to American English speakers of other ethnic backgrounds. Again, this seemed to be far removed from what she sees as her role in life as an English teacher.

Of course, this is all just an anecdote of one.

Though not exactly right, the short "e" sound in English is closer than the "ay" if you are trying to pronounce the Italian "e." In fact, I remember being in a group of Americans and Italians when the Italians were mimicking the way Americans pronounce Italian badly, while Americans were mimicking Italian accents. One of the things the Italians found particularly amusing to imitate in American tourists's accents was the tendency to stretch out vowels in Italian words, for example, by pronouncing Dante as "Dantay." The "ay" sound in English is approximately like the "ei" in Italian. The "e" standing alone in Italian does not have that subtle "y" at the end of the sound.

(There's no perfect way to explain these sounds, using only the alphabet. We can't type the international phonetic symbols here, and anyway most of us either never learned them, or have forgotten them.)

"..tendency to stretch out vowels in Italian words .."

I agree. I have noticed the American (or the anglophone in general, I don't know) do the same when they say French words. eg "sauté" > "sautay", is this an good example?

I think many people do that with French too. Italian is so much easier to pronounce than French, though, so this error is just much more glaring in Italian.

As the original poster, I can only say 'WOW'.

Now, can anyone summarise the consensus for me?

Peter

Rockknocker, I read the whole thread and loved it. My summary would be -- chink-way tear-ray (with the understanding that tear is "tear something up" NOT "tear from an eye."

"My summary would be -- chink-way tear-ray"

The e's are not pronounced as the English "ay" - cmt got it pretty much right in his explanation. Don't stretch the vowels out :)

I suppose for an English-speaking person it would be something like
"Chin-kweh Tear-reh". Oh and do roll your r's!
However, the "i" in the English "chin" is different from the Italian "i". In "cinque" it sounds more like in "cheek", but it is a shorter sound like in "chin".

Federico

To everyone who contributed, thanks a heap. I tried Carrol's summary, modified as per Federico (with a few prior practices in front of a mirror) by phone on an Italian business contact, and he understood perfectly.

Many thanks to all.

Now, do we all know how to pronounce "Van Gogh" without receiving blank looks (a past and very useful thread)?

Peter

I don't know a thing about Italian pronunciation (yet), but I'm pretty sharp on my English. I must admit being perplexed by the tare v. tear pronunciation. This is the first time I've ever heard of the word "tare." Seems to be some sort of weed seed afflicting grain fields, so maybe it's a Midwest thing. Anyway, the Merriam-Webster online audio pronouncer for tare and tear (to tear a piece of paper) are identical. And it's darn close to the sound I would make for the first syllable of barrier or carrier or terrier. Thank goodness I've got a year (definitely not a yare) to practice saying "cheenk-way tear-ray" (or tare-ray)!

I always heard of tare as the weight of the carrier of a thing whose weight is measured. Like if you buy candy in a bag the weight of the bag is the "tare" and you're not supposed to be charged for it.