How do you pronounce Giverny?
May 14th, 2006, 07:32 PM
#4
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I think tht "gh" is the wrong way to represent French "gi" (or "ji"
. Suggests the hard G in GHost or aGHast.
It's the soft "zh" as in "Gigi" which is the same consonant sound as <i><u>leisure</u></i> or <i><u>pleasure</u></i>.
Soft "g" in American Enlish quite often has a "d" sound in front of it, as in baDGe or fuDGe. This is how most Amnericans pronounce the first consonant in Germany or giraffe or gymnasium.
By contrast, the French word général or Giselle is much closer to ZHénéral or ZHiselle.
Best wishes,
Rex
. Suggests the hard G in GHost or aGHast.It's the soft "zh" as in "Gigi" which is the same consonant sound as <i><u>leisure</u></i> or <i><u>pleasure</u></i>.
Soft "g" in American Enlish quite often has a "d" sound in front of it, as in baDGe or fuDGe. This is how most Amnericans pronounce the first consonant in Germany or giraffe or gymnasium.
By contrast, the French word général or Giselle is much closer to ZHénéral or ZHiselle.
Best wishes,
Rex
May 14th, 2006, 07:37 PM
#6
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Should have finished the thought...
thus ...
zhee vehr NEE
The "vehr" is a pretty good way to represent the vowel sound in the middle syllable.
This is a subject debated ad infinitum, but the consensus seems to be that "ehr" - - the vowel sound/syllable in berry or merry or cherry - - is NOT a rhyme for HAIR (nor bare nor marry nor chair).
thus ...
zhee vehr NEE
The "vehr" is a pretty good way to represent the vowel sound in the middle syllable.
This is a subject debated ad infinitum, but the consensus seems to be that "ehr" - - the vowel sound/syllable in berry or merry or cherry - - is NOT a rhyme for HAIR (nor bare nor marry nor chair).
May 14th, 2006, 07:58 PM
#8
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I really don't think there is any regional difference in the pronunciation in Giverny.
And perhaps most important - - pointing out the commonest incorrect pronunciation of Giverny... in no part of France does it rhyme with Cabernet.
And perhaps most important - - pointing out the commonest incorrect pronunciation of Giverny... in no part of France does it rhyme with Cabernet.
May 15th, 2006, 02:19 AM
#9
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There is no reason to debate it ad infinitum. That time could be better spent cracking open a book on phonetics and looking up the IPA pronunciation, which I've already given. It shows the exact pronunciation of the name; no pseudo-American/pseudo-French gibberish approximations needed. That's what the IPA was invented for, and it is used for the purpose by linguists worldwide. Most (non-English) dictionaries use it also, for their pronunciation keys.
May 15th, 2006, 02:45 AM
#10
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Of course the IPA symbols are the only way to indicate the exact pronunciation in writing. The only problem is that on this board, these symbols cannot be reproduced. Thus AnthonyGA's transcription earlier is meaningless. To transcribe the sound we are therefore reduced to using what he sneeringly calls "pseudo-American pseudo-French gibberish approximations".
Fortunately, with the resources of the web, transcriptions are not necessary. As others have pointed out in earlier threads, the Natural Voices website will give a realistic version of the sound.
http://www.naturalvoices.att.com/demos/index.html
Fortunately, with the resources of the web, transcriptions are not necessary. As others have pointed out in earlier threads, the Natural Voices website will give a realistic version of the sound.
http://www.naturalvoices.att.com/demos/index.html
May 15th, 2006, 04:02 AM
#13
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This site handles IPA characters with no problem. If you don't see them, it's probably a configuration problem with your PC, not a problem with the site.
I have no trouble seeing them on Windows XP.
I have no trouble seeing them on Windows XP.
May 15th, 2006, 04:14 AM
#14
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While there is much merit in becoming (somewhat) familiar with IPA symbols, I disagree that it is the <i><b>only</b></i> to explain French pronunciation, especially in a setting like this forum. And it's unnecessarily condescending (hmmm... confession: been there, done that) to refer to
zhee vehr NEE
as pseudo-American/pseudo-French gibberish approximations.
With only a modest bit of explanation, as to what I meant by "zh" and "vehr", it is a well-suited and accurate description of the correct pronunciation.
And for that matter... for practical purposes... the very answer given by AnthonyGA largely provided what PJ was seeking.
zhee vehr NEE
as pseudo-American/pseudo-French gibberish approximations.
With only a modest bit of explanation, as to what I meant by "zh" and "vehr", it is a well-suited and accurate description of the correct pronunciation.
And for that matter... for practical purposes... the very answer given by AnthonyGA largely provided what PJ was seeking.
May 15th, 2006, 04:32 AM
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I can only think of one regular post-er on this board who could take a friendly and informative discussion of French pronunciations and turn it into a battlefield.
Thank you, rex, for your ACCESSIBLE advice.
Anthony, ver in Giverny most definitely does NOT rhyme with "hair." Nor does "rue cler" for that matter...
Thank you, rex, for your ACCESSIBLE advice.
Anthony, ver in Giverny most definitely does NOT rhyme with "hair." Nor does "rue cler" for that matter...
May 15th, 2006, 10:00 AM
#17
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Yes, it does rhyme with hair, in GAE, as one can easily see from the phonetic transcription.
The problem with not using something like the IPA is that approximations will be pronounced in different ways by different people. In fact, the variations are so great that often the instructions for pronunciation, no matter how detailed, are practically useless. The IPA fixes this by using specific symbols for specific sounds, period. One need not try to approximate a sound in a foreign language with sounds in another language (complicated by questions of dialect).
I've already taught these two languages; I know what mistakes people make, and I know how hopelessly unreliable approximations can be. If you want to know how Giverny is pronounced, look at the IPA pronunciation. If you don't know the IPA, look up a definition of the symbols; the more academic sources are very precise (and language-independent) in their explanations of the sounds.
It pains me to see people fumbling through inadequate explanations of pronunciation, only to end up just as incorrect as they were when they started. That's why I gave the correct pronunciation. But you can take it or leave it.
The problem with not using something like the IPA is that approximations will be pronounced in different ways by different people. In fact, the variations are so great that often the instructions for pronunciation, no matter how detailed, are practically useless. The IPA fixes this by using specific symbols for specific sounds, period. One need not try to approximate a sound in a foreign language with sounds in another language (complicated by questions of dialect).
I've already taught these two languages; I know what mistakes people make, and I know how hopelessly unreliable approximations can be. If you want to know how Giverny is pronounced, look at the IPA pronunciation. If you don't know the IPA, look up a definition of the symbols; the more academic sources are very precise (and language-independent) in their explanations of the sounds.
It pains me to see people fumbling through inadequate explanations of pronunciation, only to end up just as incorrect as they were when they started. That's why I gave the correct pronunciation. But you can take it or leave it.
May 15th, 2006, 10:46 AM
#18
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Well, if your IPA pronunciation is so fool-proof, Anthony, why bother with your English approximation at all? And by the way, your "soft g" explanation is also misleading, since OP might have easily confused that with the "g" in "giraffe." Rex's "s" in "leisure" is much more accurate.
The reason to answer as rex did and not as you did is that pjsparlor may not have had any idea what the symbols you offer as the IPA meant, how to go about retrieving that information, or even what IPA is.
If you were half as interested in helping pjsparlor get her answer as you were in showing off, you wouldn't come off as such a sneering know it all. Why not congratulate rex on his user-friendly post? Not everyone has an hour to kill researching your erudite symbols.
The reason to answer as rex did and not as you did is that pjsparlor may not have had any idea what the symbols you offer as the IPA meant, how to go about retrieving that information, or even what IPA is.
If you were half as interested in helping pjsparlor get her answer as you were in showing off, you wouldn't come off as such a sneering know it all. Why not congratulate rex on his user-friendly post? Not everyone has an hour to kill researching your erudite symbols.
