For me Spanish, Italian and. French have been much easier to "get into"
Took only one course in German. ...not sure if I wish to continue( tend to agree with MT)
Slavic languages are even more difficult IMO.

I was fluent in German by the age of 16. I took other languages briefly in school but had an affinity for German and always found it logical and easy to learn. I did study what was referred to as "High German" which is more easily understood in Austria than in Germany IME.

These days I get out my copy of Rosetta Stone a couple of months before I travel and it helps me refresh the basics.

I also have an easy time with Italian, perhaps due to my love of Italy and growing up with Italian being spoken by some relatives at home. I took one semester of French but never cared for it so never pursued it further.

Anna_Galea makes a good point. It is constant exposure that keeps language knowledge alive. But, as ever, the more you know, the more you realise you don't know. I have a degree in French and German and a fair knowledge of the history and literary culture, but I always feel there are more sub-texts and nuances there than I'll never get. And there just isn't time to keep up with everything!

I've really enjoyed reading each and every reply.

StCirq, kfusto, danon, nytraveler, Kandace_York, annagalea, DAX, lavandula, Gwendolynn, swandave2000, farrermog, Christina, quokka :)--I love your gamut of perspectives.

Russ, Greg, PatrickLondon, lincasanova-- Word order sounds pretty similar to Dutch, where you have to think about a number of things you describe: separable prefix verbs (my nemesis, although I'm beginning to get used to them), modal verbs, subordinate clauses, reflexive verbs and how they affects word order. Time before manner before place too. "Can I tomorrow with you into the city go?" would be the order in which I'm used to having to think in Dutch too.

PatrickLondon-- Dutch has a few of these particles I think too. The words "wel", "maar" and "even" affect the mood, if we're talking about the same thing.

So, there definitely seems commonality between German & Dutch in sentence structure, which would make the process easier. tom 18-- I find the Germanic similarity of words between Dutch & English has helped me build my vocabulary rapidly, and I imagine the same to be true in German. Yet I wonder a bit that when visiting Holland last June why a number of Dutch people who speak English & took German described German as "hard". (Maybe DAX or Lavandula might have an idea?)

Lsky-- I love your sentences "When I go to Germany, people can understand me. This is good but they insist upon answering my questions and this is where trouble begins. " I felt the same visitng Holland sometimes.

Thanks... I'm loving this post & the replies.

>>Yet I wonder a bit that when visiting Holland last June why a number of Dutch people who speak English & took German described German as "hard". <<

Probably precisely because it is so similar - it's more confusing! One thing (going off at a tangent) I have noticed from the crop of Scandinavian detective series we've been having in the UK in recent years, is that I could catch some words in Swedish and Danish because they were similar to Dutch (more so than to German).

>>"When I go to Germany, people can understand me. This is good but they insist upon answering my questions and this is where trouble begins. " I felt the same visitng Holland sometimes.<<

Oh yes, I was caught out last time I visited Amsterdam, and went to buy something in HEMA. Everything was fine until my card wouldn't work, and the desk clerk rattled off some advice in Dutch which I couldn't follow, and when I gave up, she said (rather grumpily in the Amsterdam way, and in perfect English) - "Well, why didn't you say you spoke English?".

I'm here in Germany and trying like crazy to learn but believe that without immersion - and someone to ask a million questions - learning is close to impossible. The classes I've taken are usually of limited use. A German boyfriend would be perfect. I do find that reading is easier than speaking (forget understanding) because many words are similar to English but also because they are often strung together to form a new word or "thought." The word can often be broken down to derive meaning. I'm also finding that letters in German sometimes replace other letters in English (durst = thirst). And nouns are capitalized so that helps. Learning words in a context also helps(the back of a food package is easy for me to understand because I know what it is likely to be saying). I have fun figuring languages out and finding connections (was an English major so words and grammar thrill me), but I'll never be able to utter more than very simple phraes. And so many just speak English back to me instead of speaking German VERY slowly so I can hear the words better. But if you enjoy figuring out languages, go for it. Of course, then, there are the dialects. At least the Germans will help you with the language. I have a great time with the Bofrost guy - his English is limited and we laugh a lot as I try to speak German. Once I told my landlord I was going back to the states because, in German I said, "my mother is sick (meine Mutter ist kranke)." He looked at me - then laughed and said, "Oh! German!" I felt like such a doof but these people are so good-natured about it all that I'm not too embarrassed and keep trying. And BTW, I hooked up my internet connection with all the instructions in German. Took two very serious tries but - oh! - the victory when I finally connected!!! Good luck.

My sons all learned German at school here in the Netherlands. They all hated it and dropped it as soon as was allowed. They found it very difficult, mainly because of the declension issue. Word order wasn't a problem because of their Dutch, and the fact they are bi-lingual helped with learning other languages.
One picked up French really easily and is now learning Arabic, but still hates German. The other two did OK at French - better than me.

The oldest is now pretty fluent in spoken German - due to his job. When he started as mate on a charter ship the groups were nearly all German school groups. He had to explain sailing and safety to them, and ate with them so his German came on in leaps and bounds. Now he has his own ship and his guest are still mostly Germans.
He is also now married to a German, and converses with his in-laws in German, though they say it is not truly correct German he is perfectly understandable, and only the worst language snobs (of which there are plenty in Germany I understand) would object to some of his German.

Plenty of Dutch people find German very hard, some think they speak it well, but don't and a few manage to master it. Some words are the same but have a very different meaning - doof is a prime example.

I've never attempted to learn it. I learned some when testing my kids, but it isn't a language that appeals much - though if you want to travel in Central and Eastern Europe German can be useful to have.

Daniel, I think because German is gramatically more complicated than Dutch and English (more cases with more specific changes). Obviously English is the easiest Germanic language to learn. That said you have a huge advantage due to your exposure to the similar vocab and reversed word order (though here and there you'd find some subtle word order differences in daily expressions).

I sometimes wonder when and why the germanic word order changed in English.

Aside from linguistic features, there is also a certain amount of rivalry between the Dutch and Germans, and German does not have the prestige for the Dutch that French has. French is to some degree still the international language of diplomacy and still has that cachet. I think this does not make it simple to learn German for the Dutch because of some latent negative feelings associated with it. In some cases feelings still run back to WWII, but that is changing slowly. The Dutch also have a rude name for the Germans, 'mof', which is like the British 'jerry' (sp?), but 'mof' is actually a much older word than WWII. But the Germans give as good as they get IME - plenty of times I have been the butt of jokes about me driving a caravan and blocking the road, because this is the clichéd image Germans have of the Dutch, holidaymakers with caravans who are inconsiderate on the road (crazy because I grew up in Australia and have never been on a caravanning holiday in Europe!).

Lavandula

Everyone here seems to agree that you need to be exposed to a language to leean it - and most importantly, understand and speak it well. as PatrickLondon commented, even if you have a degree in a language, you would still find out that there is still always more to learn.

It would take years and years of exposure to really master a languag. The easiest way to learn is when one has a parent, for example German, and lives in say England, or those who continuously talk to a relative/friend in that language. Those who go and live in a particular country and spend years mixing with the locals, in my opinion, have the best chance of speaking and understanding the language perfectly.

My cousin studied Italian at school up to fifth form, married an Italian guy and went to live in Italy. She has been living there for years now, more than 20 years in fact, and she literally speaks like a local, is totally knowledgable of all the sayings etc, is extremely fluent as much as any Italian person, knows and talks the dialect of the area, and even works as a translater with a company - Italian to English. She is not even English or Italian, but Maltese, so she also knows her native language, but being brought up talking bi-lingual from birth, and studied English, besides Maltese from pre-school, I can say that she knows all three like they were her first language.

You can know all the grammar etc in your head, but when it comes to a good long conversation, you tend to get stuck(. (I am not referring to just asking a common short question, like when one is on vacation)., You know that you are really good in a language, when you feel you are not focusing and straining to understand what the other person is saying.

Of course, the more you study a language, the more you automatically get involved in it, as you need to read more books and talk it more whilst studying it. It also makes you want to go to that country or area where it is talked to try out your language skills and to talk to people who know the language. You also tend to watch tv and read more in that particular language. Continuous exposure would then be the cherry on the cake, really essential for good communication skills.

Personally, I would prefer to learn fewer languages, and master them really really well, before moving on to study another language, But that is only my opinion, others might prefer to learn the basics (IMO studying a languages for a couple of years is basic), like to get by when travelling to a particular country. But that might become a bit confusing whilst studying, as a Fodorite remarked, (regarding German and Dutch) - being similar in some areas but still different might be more of a disadvantage than an advantage as at the back of your head you would be thinking of the other language.

Now, the question posed by the OP, on whether German is easy to learn - those who have been exposed to German or are drawn to that particular language, would say it is easy (just as I would say the same for English (say that to an Italian - many find it so hard to learn the English Language) - so it all depends on how eager you are to learn a particular language, and how much time and dedication you are willing to give to learning it. It will take a lot of time (and years for sure to master it well),, but if you are so eager to learn it = then go for it.

>>I sometimes wonder when and why the germanic word order changed in English.<<

Small matter of three hundred years or so of law and government being controlled by French-speakers: which is one of the reasons why there are many clear indicators of social class and status in English, showing whether you're using "Queen's English" or "Anglo-Saxon". (Also things like words for meat relating to French origins (beef, mutton), while the words for the animals they came from relate to Germanic origins (cow, sheep): that tells you all about the primary form of contact each group had with the animal concerned!).

hetismij-- I always appreciated your advice on my recent trip to Holland and I equally thank you for the interesting perspective on your children's take on learning German.

Lavandula-- I'd wondered if these reservations remained about learning German, so I appreciated your perspective.

Shanna-- I know what you mean about lacking immersion and a boyfriend helping! My French didn't reach a level of fluency and comfortability until I lived in Quebec and dating Quebecois definitely helped too!

DAX,PatrickLondon-- I've wondered too about how or whether the Germanic word order switched for English-speakers. If I had the time and ability to read Old English and Middle English, I think I'd find the changes in the language fascinating. I've wondered if Frisian and Scots retain the Germanic word order too?

Anna_Galea-- I know what you mean about mastering few languages and learning them really well; I worry too about spreading myself too thin. My most recent sally into Dutch means I've emphasized Spanish less of late and consequently I find myself searching for words more than ever in the tongue of Cervantes. However, I find it borderline thrilling when a new language (such as Dutch of late) opens a door to new TV shows, books, songs, culture and even simply the different means of expression that otherwise would be closed. I want to be more proficient but I just love opening those new doors too!

Mark Twain called it "the awful German language" and claimed that there were 16 ways of saying "the" in German.

I've studied German off and on for many years, but I've never become truly fluent because of that "off and on" thing. I attended German Summerschool of the Pacific (Deutsche Sommerschule am Pazifik) and Goethe Institutes at various times, but years lapse in between courses, which is the main problem.

I didn't begin studying it until my early 30's, which is also a problem.

I don't find word order a problem, but my vocabulary isn't what I want it to be, and while I can express myself fluently, I know I don't sound like a German.

In some ways I've found German easier than Spanish. Spanish is easier at first, but then you run into those awful verb tenses. The subjunctive---yech! Ditto for the difference between the past and the imperfect.

Shanna's post about telling her landlord that her mother was sick reminded me of the time I asked a Japanese waiter for another cup of coffee in Japanese. "Mo epai, kudasai," if I remember correctly.

He didn't appear to understand me, and I was quite deflated. I asked my companion, who was Nisei and fluent in Japanese, if I'd said it wrong. She told me I'd said it right, but that he didn't expect me to speak Japanese, so he didn't understand.

Daniel, your comment about searching for words in the tongue of Cervantes is so typical. If I can't find the right word easily, my subconscious pulls up a word from another language. Sometimes I'll combine a word from German and a word from Spanish--"dos mal." My Spanish classmates really liked that one.

I think there is some issue with recognition when people don't expect you to be speaking a language, something in the brain changes and needs to be prepared as to what to expect. I've had the same thing happen to me in Egypt when I learned a (very) little Arabic and said something to some vendor in my hotel in Arabic. He didn't react or seem to know what I said. So then I said in English (they speak it a lot there) what I wanted to know and asked if I had pronounced the words wrong or something and he said, no, I had pronounced them just right, in fact, he just wasn't expecting some blonde American tourist to be speaking Arabic, so it didn't register.

Peg,
I did not have much trouble with Latin languages use of subjunctive or different "past"
expressed by past tense versus imperfect.
Once you " get" it in Spanish- Italian and French follow the similar pattern.
What drove me nuts in learning German was the constant guessing
of gender due to the absence of any rules.
I never got that far, but I assumed there had to be subjunctive in German?

I tried learning German last year and gave up, partially because of the need to memorize the form of each and every noun. I studied Russian in college; that was actually easier. Now I'm sticking with French.

<< I worry too about spreading myself too thin>>

I wouldn't. I think for people with a penchant for languages there is no such thing. I've just come back from France after a four-year absence (almost unheard of for me), and was astonished how many new words I learned and how many old ones I'd forgotten came back to me just in everyday dealings with people. I had countless, and I mean countless, moments where "the bell" went off in my head over some word I was pondering...for example, I was going nuts one night trying to remember the word for "poster," which was certainly a word I learned 30+ years ago and used a LOT...and we were sitting at the train station at La Rochelle waiting to go to Paris and wondering which repère we should be at because it was a 20-voiture train and I was on crutches and wanted to make sure I could get to the right car, and kept looking at the plaque where they show the composition des trains, and
some SNCF lady came up and said "Ce n'est pas affiché encore...c'est trop tôt," and the lightbulb went off...affiché means posted...affiche is a poster!

This morning I was reading the Air France magazine on the way home from Paris and though it has everything in both French and English, I was reading the French. There was a headline about some artist who had "dévoilé" some exhibit, and my brain did a stop at that for a moment because I don't think I've ever used, or maybe even seen, that word. But it took only a second to get that it was "unveiled," even though "voile" has many meanings in French.

I've had moments, in particular on one trip where we were at the confluence of Switzerland, Austria, and Italy, and had to change languages it seemed every few hours and I ended up producing sentences with bits and pieces of three different languages, that were taxing, but I wouldn't worry about spreading yourself too thin. Ever. If you're a language nut (and I certainly am), the challenge is what it's all about.

Daniel - just found this thread, after returning from my italian conversation lesson. [lucky me, our teacher is a native italian speaker and we have a nice size group of 8, all of whom know each other now, this being our third year]. I was pleasantly surprised out how much I remembered after a break of about 3 months over the summer.

Like you, [i think] I find languages relatively easy, but I have found learning italian much harder than german, mainly because I started it much later. I think that with your dutch learning experience, your determination, and the fact that you actually studied german for a short while when you were young and your synapses were still forming, you should do pretty well.

I do think that the Michel Thomas tapes are good, as they teach you basic grammar, not just phrases, and that if you really want to make progress, you should go to Germany and do an immersion course.

Good Luck!

I was assigned to Germany in 1974 and took 4 semesters of German on the military base. Conversational German came because I could use it almost daily, even if just for shopping. I returned to Germany in 1985 and renewed my German a bit, again as I lived "on the economy", that is in civilian housing in a village.

My German lay idle from 1988 til 2006 when we started returning to Germany for vacations. Exposure to the language was limited to 10-14 day intervals as a tourist. I decided to charge my use of the language by reading fiction written in or translated into German. I have slowly progressed to the point that I can read popular fiction (Krimi - crime novels) fairly well. I have also found that reading German does little for my verbal skills. I do exchange emails with a friend in München. We will visit her for the second time in December and will, as before, likely find some comfort in the language after 1/2 hour or so, like watching Shakespeare. Still, I will never get to the point that I can follow a newscast. Of course, my native tongue is all that great either.

Regards, Gary