How can we make it easier to find useful info on this forum?
 

Hi, as much as I like the search function, when you type "Paris" as a word to search, it's just not very useful.

What do people think of the idea of a superthread? We could create "superthreads" to various cities and keep our commentary to the minimum. Each posting will have a title followed by a link to the thread containing information referred to in the title. Then we can all refer to the superthread from now on. And we can also refer newcomers to the superthread so that we don't need to add additional commentary if we don't want to.

This idea is of course similar to what ira has thought of for Italy and France -- but maybe we can take this one-step further. Basically a superthread will just become a "table of contents" of sorts. That way no one has to read through commentary on subjects that don't interest them.

We could also create a superthread for issues like transportation, etc. (relevant subjects here could be budget airlines, Eurostar tickets, etc.).

What do people think of this idea? Are there any other ideas out there regarding how we can better organize the information in this forum so that whatever we need is all in one place?

I'll create an example posting as a followup to this posting.

[This is an example posting. For example, in a superthread on Paris, we may want links to Mike's Bike Tours. So we do the following:]

Mike's Bike Tours (and Segways):

http://www.fodors.com/forums/pgMessa...p;tid=34468561

[Perhaps it's even more useful if we bother to include a direct link to Mike's Bike Tours, so we may want to do this also.]

http://www.fattirebiketoursparis.com/

[What are your ideas?]

[Of course, in the real thing we would keep the commentary to a minimum, so reading the superthread is very much like reading the table of contents in a book -- or look at the index at the back of the book. We only click on the links that interest us.]

It will only be as good as the "ownership" attached to it.

And people who have that much interest to develop a comprehensive storehouse of info seem likely to use a website - - or in a few cases exemplified by some contributors of note here - - files that they circulate around by e-mail (Ben Haines, elaine, maribel). Of course the problem with any approach is keeping the info current.


Isn't that wht this forum does, in the aggregate?

No "superthread" here will ever be able to hold a candle to an actual (current) guide book - - to a country, a city, or a subset of either (restaurants, museums, lodging, or a single place).

Converseyl, no guide book can ever be as current as this forum (or the internet at large), in the aggregate.

There are over 100,000 threads on this europe forum - - and fortunately, as a supplement to the often cantankerous "search engine", there is a lot of corporate memory.

If you think you know what question you have, you can probably find someone here to get it answered - - or in some cases, get it formulated in a fashion that others can answer it.

I fo you don't know what you don't know - - or don't know where to even start to put to gether a (list of) question(s), then that works here as well. You may get directed to books, web sites or other resources. 500(-or-less) word snippets are not a match for well-written and edited material, on paper, on in electronic form.

But those sources will always be benefit from the real-time supplelemntation that comes from asking good questions, and having an army of other travelers willing to help get them answered.

Anything Fodors could do to make searching work better would be a more useful boost than "superthreads", IMO...

Best wishes,

Rex

I'd agree with you -- Fodor's could definitely improve the search engine, and that would be much better.

At the moment, though, it's clear that there're postings that get skipped. When if you type "Paris," say, into search, a lot of postings probably aren't relevant to what you're looking for -- this thread will probably come up because "Paris" is in the thread or not (if the search engine is throwing tantrums).

I guess what prompted me to post this is that I'll be off to Paris again in a couple of weeks. I'm just curious to see what there's to do beyond the usual Louvre, Orsay, Pompidou, etc. It seems like what I want and need is an interesting list that I can use to investigate. Perhaps a "superthread" would have pointed me to things that I've not thought of, etc. When I type Paris into the forum, I see hundreds of postings that have nothing to do with what I necessarily want or am interested in. After a while, I just give up.

A superthread would be more akin to my browsing a guide book into the store, if you know what I mean.

I agree that a superthread is obviously only as good as we make it. And that a guidebook or the forum in the aggregate is much better. Still it may be useful for just random browsing. I'm not suggesting that a superthread supercede any of the other methods that people use (read this forum, search this forum, look at guidebooks, do web searches, etc.), but I think that it may be useful anyway.

Anyway, perhaps you're right. Maybe it's an idea that just won't work for many of the reasons that you've already mentioned.

I think this forum would be a lot easier to navigate if you could have a directory structure - like a folder for each country or location. For example, if you wanted info on France, click on the France folder.

You can kind-of do that now by selecting the country from the drop-down list. But as soon as you post, it takes you back to the whole Europe listing.

This thread might give you some ideas for your upcoming trip:

http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...p;tid=34496680

Hey, thanks mvor! Maybe I should have just asked. :-) I always prefer to look first. Still I think that a superthread can be useful. We can link the thread you just referenced in a superthread for Paris. :-)

<<if you wanted info on France, click on the France folder.

You can kind-of do that now by selecting the country from the drop-down list. But as soon as you post, it takes you back to the whole Europe listing.>>

and then to get back to the (virtual) "France forum" - - you just click on it again, as you did the first time - - is that really a problem?

Anyhow, I think that what 111op is lamenting is predominantly an issue in connection with Paris, Rome and London. Country searching is of very little help (yields too much other), and city searching, using the search engine is just as disappointing as has already been mentioned. Most frsutrating of all, is that it misses thestuff that may have been posted just days (or weeks) ago - - but has already fallen way off the first few "pages" here.

Anybody can start this ball rolling, of course. The header would/could/should be...

"The top 100 previous threads on Paris" (or wherever)...

and contributors would give a BRIEF mention of what's good in the thread, along with its URL (still, a lot of people - - even veterans - - don't know, or remember how to do this).

Keeping it current is still the problem.

I have referred, more than once, to a URL, cited on multiple threads here for http://www.nytimes.com/library/magaz...tra-paris.html ("Paris: An Insider's Address Book") - - for example - - but it's getting close to three years old now. In fact, just nytimes.com material on Paris - - http://travel2.nytimes.com/top/featu...ris/guide.html - - has six items newer than this.

That's why Paris is Paris - - the info you might like to glean through is inherently 100 times (1000 times?) more than you can ever see in one trip; maybe in one lifetime. And never static.

Glad to help 111op. Perhaps when you get back, you'll add something you discovered to the thread. We'll make our 8th trip in November and we haven't done a fraction of what's on our list.

I try to save interesting threads when I see them since you NEVER know what the search function will come up with and it's much too difficult to remember all the good postings. Good luck with your superthread idea (sounds like a travel superhero will be needed to maintain them).

Meanwhile, I think I'll go add the "been before thread" to the "Paris 100" while I'm thinking of it.

Maureen

Ha. I don't think that it's that difficult to maintain -- I could be wrong, of course. After all, you all will be contributing to it. :-)

I'm planning a long-weekend trip for Labor Day weekend. I've some ideas and I'll try to post them here. I guess if I want something, the best thing to do is to offer something. Maybe that will encourage people to pitch in (or not -- then the thread will just die). I'll think about it and do some sample posts next week.

But well, rex, I don't think that any thread (or the superthread) needs to be completely current. I think of this more, as I said, more like browsing a book and keeping a file of interesting things to do. People who want more current information can ask again, do a web search, or whatever.

I probably have that Insdier's Address Book for Paris whose link you mentioned, for example. I frequently clip stuff from the Times. Their web travel section is, by the way, pretty well organized.

For example, this is the main index page for Paris:

http://travel2.nytimes.com/top/featu...ris/guide.html

You can just browse whatever articles you feel like from it, by looking at the titles.

You get the main travel page here:

http://travel.nytimes.com/pages/travel/index.html

If Fodor's had something like this, I wouldn't be thinking of a superthread.

Of course, I'll have to link the Times link to my superthread. :-)

I think it is always useful when folks try to improve things BUT all of this discussion and possible preparation and brainstroming, such as it is, seems to hinge on whether or not Fodors will accept this, incorporate it, etc.

To avoid both disappointment and anger it might be useful to contact someone...whoever that "someone" is and ask them if the idea would be considered if presented. Just my opinion, of course.

That's a good idea. Though Fodor's would presumably not care if we create a couple of threads. As far as the content goes, maybe we do have to be careful as to what we can link? Are there restrictions? No overt advertising, but anything else?

Hi
there are some websites such as paris.org that cover little-visited sites as well as the popular ones, and a good bookstore will have some specialized guidebooks on narrower topics for Paris. \

ira did have a good idea with the Italy "super thread." Still, some of it will become out of date, inaccurate info can't be deleted from it, it doesn't get topped every day, and there are also many people who prefer newly asking a question for TODAY's answer, even if it's a common question about how to travel from the airport, or
travelers checks.

As rex put in a plug for my file on Paris, I'd be happy to send it to you if you email me. It has both common and arcane info in it, and I update it weekly when I come across new info here and elsewhere.
[email protected]

One key would be to remember to actually use the word 'SUPERTHREAD' in the title and the body, so we can find it in a search (and distinguish it from any other "Paris" thread).

Hi, thanks elaine. I'll e-mail you for the file. It's always interesting to see what people have filed away. If I create a superthread, do you mind if I list your e-mail address in that thread? (Presumably not?)

No, I don't think that it's good to top a superthread every day. But if there's enough useful stuff in the superthread, it will be referred to and the usefulness will perpetuate itself, if that makes sense.

I do agree that threads can get outdated, etc., but everything does.

Basically, just better organization, that's all -- there's so much useful information here. It just would be nice to have everything "in one place." Of course people can always ask again.

Anyway, with all this talk, I'll just start the superthread now. :-)

Ok, I've created the superthread here:

http://www.fodors.com/forums/pgMessa...p;tid=34519236

Let's keep the discussion separate from the superthread. Fire away. My first indexed item will be ice-cream in Paris. Yum! :-)

<i>&quot;and then to get back to the (virtual) &quot;France forum&quot; - - you just click on it again, as you did the first time - - is that really a problem?&quot;</i>

Well, not a problem. But in response to the original question, it would make the information on this site easier to navigate, thus more useful. Afterall, if I'm researching a trip to Greece, I don't necessarily want to have to keep &quot;re-entering&quot; the Greece forum so I don't have to weed through all the posts about Italy, France, UK, etc...

But this would have to be a structural change in the website by fodors - not something the users could do.

But wouldn't the posting of these superthreads sort of defeat the purpose of discussion forum? I know that the same questions are asked over and over as new travelers discover the forum, but it kind of seems to me like we'd be saying &quot;that's already been discussed here - got to this thread and read all about it.&quot; It may be a bit off-putting to a newbie.

And eventually it might turn it into an 'information only' forum instead of a discussion type forum.

I certainly like the idea of a superthread of &quot;things to do in paris&quot;... especially since when you type in only a search of &quot;Paris&quot; you get everyone's Paris trip reports and their dog named Paris, etc.

Then again, I'm fairly adept at using the search function.

I also know there are a couple threads I keep my eyes on and can find them quickly when I need them... i.e. 100 top things to do in Paris, London, etc.

Good luck trying to maintain a superhead, though.

~kat

IMO(and if this isn't your opinion, that is ok) I think that this site will be so much easier to navigate and find what we are looking for if people start creating better subject titles.

When I am looking down the list of titles, it would be much better for me if I saw (for example only - and making something up off the top of my head) &quot;Help me decide what 3 cities to visit in France this August&quot; and NOT &quot;help me decide&quot; ... It gets frustrating sometimes.

Questioners might get appropriate information by including relevant personal information. Yes, I know many do. For instance: My husband and I are both 60 years old, we are mobile and have considerable disposable income. Please suggest a one week museum and art gallery tour of Paris. Or: My boyfriend and I are in our early 20s. We want to experience Paris night life. Suggest some venue, please.

The forum doesn't seem to be designed to replace guidebooks, which have all the information in one place and are indexed. We must also acknowledge that permanent threads, which are otherwise known as articles, are under the jurisdiction of the site managers/editors. It is up to them to decide what merits permanent display and what does not on the site. Fodors' three day itineraries for various cities being a case in point: it is easy to find this information, but one must go elsewhere on the site (to 'Destinations') to do so. On other travel sites, one can solicit the editors to post an 'article' written by a user, but again, it's up to the editors. You could always try contacting Fodors', as someone has already suggested.

My problem with a superthread concept would be as for threads in general. Once they get big enough, the responses in them need to be indexed themselves, and there's no way of doing that.

..just a comment relating to (i hope) common sense as opposed to any major changes..i have noted that many of the same questions are posed over and over (and over) again..ex Does any one know aboiut hotel muget? limo vs rer from Roissy ect ect...do people know to put key words in the white bx? if not should intructions to new users be clearer? i find that at least half the stuff seems to be repeat questions with the same repeat answers,,if there was less of this, i think it would be easier to find new relavent info..so much for my 2 cents worth..

Was just taking a look at what people --now, of course I'm not the Fodor's editor. :-) Actually I haven't written them. Not sure if I would.

Threads are cumbersome once they become big. And the search function isn't particularly useful. Perhaps what I'm also saying is this -- if you're planning a trip and you've done a search on some topics and found some relevant stuff that people would be interested in knowing about, cull that info and post that stuff to the superthread. That way, no one has to run another search to get the same info. Or perhaps miss some information that someone else might have gotten somewhere that was useful.

As the superthread gets big, we can always reindex by category -- for example, create subthreads for hotels, restaurants, tourist attractions, etc. Or even by neighborhood. And then relink these to a main thread. Maybe I won't be here by then. :-)

No, I don't think that this will replace a guide book, but I think that if enough people try to organize what's available here, we can all make it easier for people to find the information they/I need. Maybe people won't be asking the same questions over and over.

And of course I'm not saying that people shouldn't be asking questions. I don't know about the others, but sometimes I like to read and observe what others have to say before asking my own questions. A superthread would be useful in this regard. I don't know if people read newsgroups online, but many of them usually have an FAQ. So a superthread could also serve that purpose.

111op

Rereading my post I can see that once again I didn't manage to convey the tone that I wanted. In retrospect I can see how my comments such as &quot;it's up to [the editors]&quot; must have sounded like an accusation of presumptuousness, which must have been hard for you to read. When truly, 111op, this was not a reflection on you but on my own clumsiness with words.

Let me try again by expressing my concerns as a question, e.g., how to handle the superthread once it becomes very large ?, or, how to get around the fact that only editors have the ability to make 'permanent' indexed postings, such as articles ?

I made mention of the articles and hotel/restaurant reviews by Fodors editors because even though these are easy to find, and very succinct, the subjects of these articles often turn up in questions on the board. This tells me that people often ask questions quite apart from ease of searching. Some need is being fulfilled when they ask questions. Maybe it's the sense of being personally looked after. Or maybe they need the reassurance of a range of opinions instead of a summary of facts. Or maybe they just want to experiment with board participation.

Sue_xx_yy,

Don't be so hard on yourself ... this happens to me on here ALL the time ;)

Hi Sue, I didn't think that what you said was presumptuous at all. But actually I *should* post links to Fodor's info on the superthread, which I'll do after I post this.

Now, again, I'm not disputing that people should be asking questions -- or that people would want to ask questions. Ultimately, whether the superthread succeeds or fails, obviously people will continue to do whatever they want anyway. :-) All I'm hoping for is a more efficient collection of useful information and links all in one place, that's all, if that makes sense.

111op
I think this is an excellent idea. I was thinking of suggesting such a plan but was too lazy to follow up.
I have booked many hotels and B&amp;B's recommended by those considerate enough to contribute. I also obtained 2 discounted flights at substantial savings.
The problem is, unless you tune in at the right time and the message is titled so you can retrieve it the messages are scrolled down into limbo and you miss them by the next day.
If set up properly we should be able to
make an entry under 'search this forum' and find what we want. This would also eliminate the need of those new to the forum from asking the same questions which have been answered many times. For example persons having knowledge of airline specials could title their thread as follows
Airline Special Fares:(or some such)
Airline :Backfire Airlines
From /to: San Diego/London
Fare R/T:$350
Purchase by: Jul 17 to Jul 28,2004
Contact:www [email protected]
Remove this web on:Aug 29,2004
(this would have to be coordinated with Fodors in order to eliminate fares no longer valid and avoid cluttering the site)
This same system could be used for lodging.
Example: Enter Venice Hotels under'search this forum' and find what you need.
111op if interested I will work with you and maybe we ,and all others who are interested, can come up with a workable system to submit to fodors for approval
Hopefully it will be shorter than this long winded thread of mine.
don76

GSteed, et al,
Amen!
M

Wow. I'm always too lazy to contact the powers that be. :-)

I think that you're right that threads keep disappearing and so it's difficult to keep things current. Apart from improving the search function, I think that Fodor's can also create more static online forums under their destinations section. For example, they could have sections on food, hotels, airlines, etc. under Paris and people could write there. That way, that stuff is always easily accessible. Some websites have this sort of function.

We could always e-mail Fodor's editors and alert them to this thread on this forum and they can read about what people think are the good and bad of various ideas.

By the way, you can check the Paris &quot;superthread&quot; here:

http://www.fodors.com/forums/pgMessa...p;tid=34519236

It's obviously a work of progress. I guess my idea is very primitive -- basically we can all keep posting summaries of various things to it. That way the thread will always remain visible. And as it gets better, we can refer people to it too. So this doesn't really require any special help from Fodor's. We can obviously create superthreads for Rome, London, etc. and also for the common travel questions that pop up regarding air and train tickets.