Honest Question about dress codes!
 

An honest question and in no way intended to stir up the usual US v Euro bickering we get so often.

I've been kicking around the US and Europe boards for a while and noticed frequent post on the Europe board regarding what its acceptable to wear in such and such a place and how not to stand out as a tourist. I've seldom see similar queries on the US board from European posters.

Do Europeans not care about this issue when travelling and do the US posters find the responses to these questions useful?

Europeans are very happy to look like tourists when they visit other countries, and the farther away from home they are, the sloppier they dress.

Also, in many of their tourist destinations, there is no risk at all of NOT looking like a tourist. People of European stock kind of stand out in Africa, Asia, the Carribean, or the new resorts of the Middle East, so there's no point in wearing camouflage.

In terms of North America, unless they are visiting office buildings in Manhattan or Beverly Hills, even sloppy European tourists will be better dressed than a significant percentage of the locals anyway.

Really, I couldn't care less about dress codes, if such a thing has ever existed except in a few places I won't be visiting anyway. So no, I won't be asking about that if I were to visit the States.

My only concern is practicality, so I am more interested in climate or weather than in dress codes; I don't even think in terms of dress codes.

German tourists certainly don't care. Otherwise, here in Florida, you wouldn't see so many sandals with socks. Yikes!

Behavior may be the key to acceptance in a foreign society. That said, Some tourists are not concerned what or if the locals identify them as strangers. Has anyone ever asked about the 'dress code' at a Disney Park?

I just dress the same wherever I go and know that shorts are for the beach, that you dress fairly smartly to visit a posh restaurant etc. etc.
I strongly suspect that most Americans are just the same.
In my town, we see many tourists and the vast majority dress perfectly normally. I was walking behind a group the other day who looked just like everybody else in the street, but one old boy had a baseball hat where the elastic bit at the back had ridden up and hadn't stretched. Immediately, I thought "American" and when I heard him speak, I knew that I was right.
I wasn't tempted to mug him or serve him with an Asbo though, forbidding the wearing of a baseball hat in a public place by a man over 60.

LOL MIss Prism, my thoughts exactly. When I'm away I just dress for the appropriate activity as I would at home, making allowances for the weather of course.

Do people go out and buy new wardrobes on the strength of advice given here?

Why should I care about what maybe some people on the other side of the world think of me? I will never see them again, and they will probably never see me again.
And what is wrong with being a tourist? It's exactly what you are when you are abroad on vacation.

When I first stumbled across Fodor's Forums I seriously thought for a while that all these "dress threads" were just some tongue-in-cheek jokes because I was not able to understand that grown-up people can fuss for ages over that kind of questions.
(Questions re. proper attire at special occasion, e.g. houses of worship etc. are exempt)

Do people go out and buy new wardrobes on the strength of advice given here?

Ah, you've rung one of my bells!
Completely off-topic, of course, but I always wonder about those people who try to tell us how to live.
If Fiona Ranger-Sloane or Jeremy Chinlesse-Wonder write in a magazine that wallpaper or hollyhocks are out, do people rush to scrape off their wallpaper or dash into the garden to uproot the hollyhocks?

I'm not that fussed about whether I look like a tourist, though I will make sure I'm aware of what is considered appropriate dress (particularly for women) in some countries or regions, as I have no desire a) to offend or b) to be harrassed as a result of what I am wearing.

I certainly never give a thought to blending in when I go to the States - I wear what I wear at home.

Why should I care about what maybe some people on the other side of the world think of me? I will never see them again, and they will probably never see me again.

Have you read Cranford by Mrs. Gaskell?
In it she says that the ladies of Cranford don't worry much about being fashionable because when they are at home everybody knows them and it doesn't matter, and when they are away, nobody knows them, so it doesn't matter there either.

<i>even sloppy European tourists will be better dressed than a significant percentage of the locals anyway.</i>

yeah right.....

you haven't been to Florida, have you?

European beach attire is a reality TV show waiting to happen
Overweight women in thong bikinis
Men in speedos with black socks and sandals

European casual wear
Men in tight hot pants with the same black socks and sandals
Women for the most part dress better and blend in.


That said, we love the Europeans. It's good for business and for all the young people employed at the local restaurants, bars and hotels. I just wish that the Europeans followed the motto of &quot;when in Rome...&quot;
and realize that we have a different system here. It's customary to tip your server at least 10% and if the service is excellent as much as 20-25%.

AAFrequentFlyer, we will agree to tip in accordance with American customs when we visit America if you lot agree to tip in accordance with local customs (variable, according to where you visit) when in Europe.

Re. Beach attire:
Yes, it is also not always a nice sight at European beaches. But again: People do not care.

Re. tipping:
I understand it can be a PIA for people working in restaurants.
BUT: What keeps the restaurants in areas that get much tourism from Europe, e.g. FL, to put a &quot;tipping guideline&quot; in writing in their menus or somewhere else? I mean, if a country can put a man on the moon, it cannot be an unachievable task to find a way to solve THAT problem...

I remember reading an article somewhere about this, and the writer made a point of trying to &quot;dress local&quot;. It just seems silly to me. In a place like Asia, I'm not going to be confused for a local anyway, so it just seems like playing dress-up to bother trying.

In Europe, I don't find the locals to dress differently enough to even worry about. Indeed, as best I can tell, the US and most of Europe have largely settled into a pretty generic style, dominated by a few major brands. Some of the names may differ, but there really isn't that much to tell Zara apart from Banana Republic. Or H&amp;M from Old Navy.

I don't want to make this into a debate about whether one system is better than other.

In the US, tipping is expected.

I believe that as a tourist one should know few thinks about the destination. I can almost excuse the first timers, but a repeat visitor should know better.

Yet, I have heard from many youngsters working on our little paradise island that the same visitors that are here once or twice a year and in some cases own condos and they visit multiple times a year still don't tip.

<b>Padraig</b>

agree....:-)

&quot;there really isn't that much to tell Zara apart from Banana Republic&quot;

You've clearly not shopped in either lately. The day Banana opened in London a couple of months back, you could hear the snores of the rag trade - who hadn't seen such boring clothes since C&amp;A hit the dust - from the other end of Oxford St.

btw, my dear Irish friends that own a condo and all their friends that stay there are some of the best tippers. The village restaurant/bar employees love them. :-)

AAFrequentFlyer wrote: &quot;my dear Irish friends that own a condo and all their friends that stay there are some of the best tippers.&quot;

That might be in part because tipping restaurant staff is more usual in Ireland than in continental Europe.

Tipping in the US is usually 20%, more for very good service, since the minimum wage for servers is 30% less than the national minimum. The government feels that tips will make up the balance. Tipping 10% or less is an indication that the service was poor.

Well, as someone who lives in Florida, and someone who just returned from Europe, here is my take...

When I even bother to notice what I assume is a European tourist's clothing, I just think to myself, &quot;Oh there's another European.&quot;

In Paris and Rome, not once did I feel like someone looked at me in my Levi's jeans, Old Navy t-shirt, and Gap sweater, and think anything more than, &quot;Oh, there's another American.&quot; In fact, I don't think anyone even noticed me at all.

I truly never felt like it was an issue to me or to anyone who lived there. We didn't eat anywhere fancy. If we did, of course, I would have worn something better.

Having said that, jeans, t-shirt, and sweater is considered dressed up at home. So, I actually felt pretty fancy while I was there. ((#))

That could be true, but some of their friends are Brits and Scots and Swiss.

btw, they are from N.Ireland.

I believe that it has more to do with destination awareness.

I just remembered this story from our last night in Paris:

We were walking over to view the Eiffel Tower one last time, and a girl came up to me and starting speaking French. As I was trying to say (in French) that I don't speak French, she held out her camera and said &quot;Photo?&quot; Then, I realized she was American and took her photo. I asked her if she thought we were French, and she said that she did because we weren't carrying lots of stuff with us, so she assumed we were locals.

So, even though I was dressed very American, it was the lack of paraphenalia that made the difference.

paraphernalia...not paraphenalia

gah!

The shop assistants at Munich airport's duty free shops often address me in English. Which I think is cute. And it does not keep me from wearing a baseball cap, jeans, and sneakers most of the time.

One question bugs me (a bit in the line of what shelly_m wrote):

When you, as an American tourist in Paris or Rome, look at all the other people (which are mostly also tourists from all corners of the world), do they all appear to you as being dressed in a &quot;European way&quot;? Or do you notice that you can see all types of clothing when lining up for the Vatican or Eiffel tower?

AAFrequentFlyer, what I said about the Irish also includes Brits (which category includes Scots). It does not apply so much to the Swiss.

I accept that destination awareness may indeed be a factor.

<i>You've clearly not shopped in either lately.</i>

Actually, I stopped into both this past weekend, while in London. Both were busy. As were Uniqlo and Gap and H&amp;M and most of the other chains. I saw a lot of Abercrombie bags going around as well, though I didn't go in. Passed a lot of shoe stores with stuff in the window largely indistinguishable from what I saw a month ago in the US.

Selfridges was packed with the same labels found at most mid-tier department stores elsewhere. Liberty was a bit more daring, but no more so than someone like Nieman Marcus, in the US. About the only store I found selling anything even remotely bold was Desigual. But nothing that would be too out of place in many US stores.

I assume that you will be able to offer some observations from your recent, extensive travels to the US?

Cowboy:

Actually, when I was in Paris, it was very warm (for what I think was the first warm weather in a long time). On that Sunday, most girls were out in mini-skirts and tank tops, which looked pretty much the same as what they wear here. I even took a photo of the Converse Chuck Taylors seen in every store just to show my daughter that the &quot;cool kids&quot; in Paris are wearing the same things the &quot;cool kids&quot; in Florida are wearing.

The one thing that really identified a Paris local to me was the scarf-skirt-leggings-boots outfits that they were wearing when it was cold. Of course, that may have just stood out to me because we don't wear clothes like that at all at home. Those people could have been New Yorkers, for all I knew. I did think they were cute outfits, though.

I suspect that Europeans are abroad so often that they realize there are no right answers to what is the dress code in any particular country. Once you've been to five or six different countries in Europe you realize that fashions, for the mainstream, are seldom much different.

They're also exposed to US media, culture and fashions to such an extent that, at least on a superficial level, they are familiar with what to expect when they travel there. Perhaps that goes some way to explaining the general lack of angst on the topic.

Well, looking back at old holiday photos I have to conclude that I have no shame and don't give a stuff what anyone thinks of my clothes on holiday!

Crete in August - a particularly awful massive straw hat. (boy it was hot and I burn burn burn so had to get the biggest one I could find).

funniest - camping in a tiny tent on a Suffolk farm in rotten weather for 3 weeks with few facilities and a toddler. We went into a tearoom in Bury St Edmunds and the lady who greeted us at the door very discretely and sympathetically asked if we were here for the charity clothing handouts from upstairs!

I suspect that Europeans are abroad so often that they realize there are no right answers to what is the dress code in any particular country. Once you've been to five or six different countries in Europe you realize that fashions, for the mainstream, are seldom much different

That's right enough.
I'm approaching my three score years and ten (groan) and go to Italy most years.
Quite honestly, I look just like the local old Italian wifies.
I haven't been in the US for decades, but I certainly wouldn't buy a new outfit in order to fit in.
The last time one of my American friends visited, she looked pretty well the same as any middle-class Englishwoman of her age.
The American bum-bag, shorts and baseball hat brigade and their European equivalents make themselves conspicuous, but they are only a minority.
The majority of people just dress appropriately for their age, size and the venue and you don't notice them.

The Europeans truly believe:

There is no Da Vinci code
and
there is no dress code
(except for churches, some beaches, businesses and certain evening venues.)

Okay, here is the other side of the &quot;Americans in Europe/Europeans in America&quot; issue, though my example is about people from the UK, who aren't really Europeans.

We live in an upscale resort on an island off the coast of Massachusetts and have frequent visitors. One pair of wonderful UK friends dress so casually when they are here that we simply can't take them or let them take us to any of the better restaurants for dinner.

Their idea of holiday clothing from trips to Spain and Florida is shorts, T-shirts, and sandals, and that's all they bring. These are fine for lunch at many places but not for dinner most places. So we wind up eating at home.

To show that our town is not alone, when we visited friends in Charleston, SC, and went to a nice restaurant for dinner, SNOB or Magnolias,maybe, I asked my friend what to wear. His reply, &quot;Charleston casual.&quot; I said, &quot;Khakis and a blazer?&quot; and he responded, &quot;Yes.&quot; It is a uniform.

When we owned a condo in Naples, Florida, I would skip the blazer when going to dinner but would wear nice trousers and a neat shirt with a collar at any place that might have table cloths.

So the answer for Europeans as it is for Americans, is that you should dress for what you hope to do. If you are happy with casual meals in casual places, take casual clothing. If you want a broader range of choices, take a broader range of clothes.

We returned last night from France, our first trip there since 2004. I was surprised how much &quot;sloppier&quot; many Europeans were dressed compared to past visits (especially compared to my first trip in 1977!), e.g., T-shirts, sneakers. I did notice that even on quite warm days, most French wore jackets and coats. No doubt, more Americans were seen in Paris wearing shorts and flip-flops - mostly the younger ones - but I think it's about time we can stop obsessing over this.