Homelidays - I wished I had been warned!
Dec 20th, 2006, 08:07 PM
#41
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The risk of renting an apartment can in no way compare to the "risk" of reserving at a hotel. Even if you were to arrive to a "shell" hotel, the next day you could find another hotel and move. You ahve not made a sizable investment in an apt. rental.
Actually, the thing that holds me back from renting an apt. or house is the fact that it will look great in the pictures but in real life it'll be a dump!
Actually, the thing that holds me back from renting an apt. or house is the fact that it will look great in the pictures but in real life it'll be a dump!
Dec 20th, 2006, 10:59 PM
#42
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I'm sorry, but I keep my stance on Western Union. From their website :
"
Western Union vous déconseille d'envoyer de l'argent à quelqu'un que vous ne connaissez pas. Transférez de l'argent uniquement à des individus que vous connaissez personnellement ou dont vous pouvez vérifier l'identité.
Si vous achetez des biens ou services et que vous utilisez le réseau Western Union pour régler vos achats, vous le faites à vos risques et périls. Western Union ne recommande pas l'utilisation de son service de transfert d'argent dans le cadre de relations commerciales avec un inconnu et décline toute responsabilité quant à la non livraison ou à la qualité des biens et services.
Western Union interdit le recours à ses services de transfert d'argent pour le règlement d'achats effectués sur des sites d'enchères en ligne.
N'envoyez pas d'argent à un bénéficiaire utilisant un faux nom. Vous ne serez pas protégé si vous achetez un bien ou service à quelqu'un que vous ne connaissez pas."
In other words : they couldn't care less if you send money "lightly".
They might be reasonably safe in France where their representative is la Poste, but in other countries, you have no way to check that the receiver will have to display sufficient proof of ID.
"
Western Union vous déconseille d'envoyer de l'argent à quelqu'un que vous ne connaissez pas. Transférez de l'argent uniquement à des individus que vous connaissez personnellement ou dont vous pouvez vérifier l'identité.
Si vous achetez des biens ou services et que vous utilisez le réseau Western Union pour régler vos achats, vous le faites à vos risques et périls. Western Union ne recommande pas l'utilisation de son service de transfert d'argent dans le cadre de relations commerciales avec un inconnu et décline toute responsabilité quant à la non livraison ou à la qualité des biens et services.
Western Union interdit le recours à ses services de transfert d'argent pour le règlement d'achats effectués sur des sites d'enchères en ligne.
N'envoyez pas d'argent à un bénéficiaire utilisant un faux nom. Vous ne serez pas protégé si vous achetez un bien ou service à quelqu'un que vous ne connaissez pas."
In other words : they couldn't care less if you send money "lightly".
They might be reasonably safe in France where their representative is la Poste, but in other countries, you have no way to check that the receiver will have to display sufficient proof of ID.
Dec 21st, 2006, 07:49 AM
#43
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I have rented two apartments in Paris through homelidays and both times I was very happy with the experience. Each time I contacted several owners and eventually made a decision after a fairly long correspondence which ( I felt) gave me a good feel for the personality I was dealing with. I rejected one apartment because the deposit seemed outrageously large - 1200 euros.
I am about to rent another apartment for four weeks next spring and am still debating. Luckily my daughter is currently studying in Paris. Last week I hesitantly asked 2 of the owners if it would be OK for her to take a look at their apartments to help me make a decision, and was surprised that they very readily agreed. (She liked one, hated the other)
Hey, it just occured to me - this could be a business opportunity for my daughter - independent assessments of prospective rental apartments! (Just kidding)
Sorry about your bad luck, mwiars, and thanks for the heads up. I wish you would post more details of the apartment which was fraudulently advertised.
I am about to rent another apartment for four weeks next spring and am still debating. Luckily my daughter is currently studying in Paris. Last week I hesitantly asked 2 of the owners if it would be OK for her to take a look at their apartments to help me make a decision, and was surprised that they very readily agreed. (She liked one, hated the other)
Hey, it just occured to me - this could be a business opportunity for my daughter - independent assessments of prospective rental apartments! (Just kidding)
Sorry about your bad luck, mwiars, and thanks for the heads up. I wish you would post more details of the apartment which was fraudulently advertised.
Dec 21st, 2006, 07:57 AM
#44
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Interestingly mwiars hasn't answered a lot of questions posed to him on this thread and these are his only posts.
If his story is true I think the point is not that others have had success with this company but that the guarantee, which would have been enough to attract my trust as well, did nothing to protect him.
If his story is true I think the point is not that others have had success with this company but that the guarantee, which would have been enough to attract my trust as well, did nothing to protect him.
Dec 21st, 2006, 08:55 AM
#47
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I don't understand what mwiars is up to.
He claims he's sent money and had it stolen. But Western Union has a photocopy of the alleged criminal's French ID card.
So why hasn't mwiars simply reported the theft to the police?
Incidentally, one very simple precaution you can all take when sending money this way. There's a space on the Western Union form for the payee's ID number. Ask them for it before sending the money: that way they know you know.
And I've never known Western Union local franchisees be anything other than absolute bastards for meticulously checking that a payee's ID matches the details the sender has supplied perfectly. I once spent three days getting a payment through when I put the payee's first two names in the wrong order.
He claims he's sent money and had it stolen. But Western Union has a photocopy of the alleged criminal's French ID card.
So why hasn't mwiars simply reported the theft to the police?
Incidentally, one very simple precaution you can all take when sending money this way. There's a space on the Western Union form for the payee's ID number. Ask them for it before sending the money: that way they know you know.
And I've never known Western Union local franchisees be anything other than absolute bastards for meticulously checking that a payee's ID matches the details the sender has supplied perfectly. I once spent three days getting a payment through when I put the payee's first two names in the wrong order.
Dec 21st, 2006, 09:07 AM
#48
I totally agree w/ flanner re western union. Have had to send funds to a neer do well brother (only a slight exaggeration) overseas a few times and each time the ID requirements were extremely stringent.
mwiars story totally confuses me. Often when a first timer posts this sort of rant I question the motivations, but am usually shot down that "newbies can give valid warnings too . . . ." But this one does smell.
When I've dealt w/ homelidays landlords there have been multiple e-mails/phone calls and things sorted out to a T before any money changed hands. Of course there could be a crook on there - but w/o more feedback from mwiars - just count me as a skeptic . . . .
mwiars story totally confuses me. Often when a first timer posts this sort of rant I question the motivations, but am usually shot down that "newbies can give valid warnings too . . . ." But this one does smell.
When I've dealt w/ homelidays landlords there have been multiple e-mails/phone calls and things sorted out to a T before any money changed hands. Of course there could be a crook on there - but w/o more feedback from mwiars - just count me as a skeptic . . . .
Dec 21st, 2006, 10:16 AM
#49
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<<sorry to insist, but the problem with in fact non-existent rentals is almost the same with hotels. I'm sure you, too, will have heard countless stories about hotels booked that turned out to be merely shells of buildings on arrival, still far from being finished >>... Franco
Countless stories of people booking shells for hotels???? I have never heard of such a story, but the risk is obviously less for a hotel as you can leave. I rarely prepay hotel bills, though, and would never prepay an entire hotel bill for a hotel I have never heard of and wasn't well known (which would have to be the case for a shell). I have prepaid hotels twice in my life, places I knew for years, because I got a good discount for that.
I haven't ever dealt with a private owner and said that, but I never made any recommendation to anyone about what they should or shouldn't do. In fact, contrary to someone's complaint that people were recommending that one only rent from agencies, I don't see anyone recommending that. I see everyone simply stating what they do and why, which is all I did. I have my reasons for what I do, as do others, and what I am comfortable with. I don't personally care about vacation apts. that much, I generally think they are too much trouble and too expensive in comparison to hotels, but I don't have a lot of the desires many people have who must rent apts when on vacation for less than two weeks.
I am a cautious person by nature, it is true, but that has served me well on many levels. I also won't send cash for apts., either, I have only dealt with agencies that accepted credit cards. One agency I used in France did want a cashier's check for some deposit, as I recall, but I know that agency (have been in it, physically) and it's been around for many years, so I trust them.
I would trust a private owner if I had some recommendations from someone I trusted as to the experience (not just reading a blind recommendation from their own website from someone who could be them), even if it were someone I knew from Fodors.
It is kind of funny mwjars hasn't commented on these things. I am a skeptic, but I'm not one of those who claims posts are made up just because I don't agree with the position, and I tend not to believe posts are made up that have such unusual and specific details. I don't think people do such things, and see no purpose to people making up very specific unusual posts. If someone just wanted to be a troll on the internet, there are much more interesting and easy ways to do it. I do think that sometimes when you see complaints from a newcomer, that the story may be true to some extent, but that sometimes the details are distorted or things are ommitted to make it look in their favor (not this case, but certain consumer complaints on here have been like that).
Countless stories of people booking shells for hotels???? I have never heard of such a story, but the risk is obviously less for a hotel as you can leave. I rarely prepay hotel bills, though, and would never prepay an entire hotel bill for a hotel I have never heard of and wasn't well known (which would have to be the case for a shell). I have prepaid hotels twice in my life, places I knew for years, because I got a good discount for that.
I haven't ever dealt with a private owner and said that, but I never made any recommendation to anyone about what they should or shouldn't do. In fact, contrary to someone's complaint that people were recommending that one only rent from agencies, I don't see anyone recommending that. I see everyone simply stating what they do and why, which is all I did. I have my reasons for what I do, as do others, and what I am comfortable with. I don't personally care about vacation apts. that much, I generally think they are too much trouble and too expensive in comparison to hotels, but I don't have a lot of the desires many people have who must rent apts when on vacation for less than two weeks.
I am a cautious person by nature, it is true, but that has served me well on many levels. I also won't send cash for apts., either, I have only dealt with agencies that accepted credit cards. One agency I used in France did want a cashier's check for some deposit, as I recall, but I know that agency (have been in it, physically) and it's been around for many years, so I trust them.
I would trust a private owner if I had some recommendations from someone I trusted as to the experience (not just reading a blind recommendation from their own website from someone who could be them), even if it were someone I knew from Fodors.
It is kind of funny mwjars hasn't commented on these things. I am a skeptic, but I'm not one of those who claims posts are made up just because I don't agree with the position, and I tend not to believe posts are made up that have such unusual and specific details. I don't think people do such things, and see no purpose to people making up very specific unusual posts. If someone just wanted to be a troll on the internet, there are much more interesting and easy ways to do it. I do think that sometimes when you see complaints from a newcomer, that the story may be true to some extent, but that sometimes the details are distorted or things are ommitted to make it look in their favor (not this case, but certain consumer complaints on here have been like that).
Dec 21st, 2006, 10:39 AM
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Well, I agree with those recent posters who wondered why mwiars doesn't show up anymore to answer the posts on this thread, so I think it may be wise not to continue this discussion. I just want to make one point clear, since I obviously didn't explain that well enough (see the posts of Christina, WillTravel or cruiseluv): the "shell" hotels! This, of course, works ONLY with entirely prepaid holidays - it's a typical package holiday fraud. You've prepaid at your travel agency for everything: flight tickets, accomodation, full pension; typically, it's a "brand new" hotel, the catalogue pictures are splendid, and it seems logical that there are no reviews on the web (not to speak of the fact that package holidays are very often booked by less experienced travelers who might not use sites like Fodor's or TripAdvisor!). So, the problem is exactly that the victims of these frauds have prepaid sizeable amounts; and that they cannot easily change the hotel after one night - first because it's a question of money, second because all hotels around may be booked, third because those less experienced travelers might not be able to help themselves. This is really a recurring, and all-too-well-known, problem for
Dec 21st, 2006, 10:43 AM
#51
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...ooops, hit the "post" button erroneously, sorry. A recurring consumerism problem, I wanted to say - way more often to be encountered than problems with fraudulent apartment owners, but really WAY more often (at least in the consumerism sector, maybe due to the fact that, as I tried to point out, package tourists typically are less able to help themselves, e.g. by using forums like this one).
Dec 21st, 2006, 10:49 AM
#52
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Wow franco - I have never heard of this. I, unlike Christina, often prepay a deposit to a hotel or register my CC. I do try to do my homework. I would think that anyone not willing to do so would be safer to go through a travel agent but that is counter to your post.
Dec 21st, 2006, 10:51 AM
#53
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Yes, I am with Franco-I recall a very well known fraud that caught out toursts that booked pre-paid package holidays to this fabulous looking place, "brand new" in Turks and Caicos some years ago. But mwiars situation was different and I am still unsure as to whether he was an innocent victim or a PO'd ex-employee or some such variation.Guess we'll never know for sure...
Dec 21st, 2006, 12:11 PM
#54
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Hotels are often not as good as advertised, but I can't see that type of package holiday fraud happening in my case (or most people here):
1) We would generally pay by credit card, so could likely get a refund.
2) In my case, if I were to book such a deal, I would use a provincially certified travel agency, which is required to pay into a provincial fund meant to deal with such cases.
I'm sure this could have happened quite easily back in the day when if people paid by cheque or money order and did not have easy access to the Internet for information. Nowadays any "new" hotel would have a whole chain of Internet press releases behind it.
1) We would generally pay by credit card, so could likely get a refund.
2) In my case, if I were to book such a deal, I would use a provincially certified travel agency, which is required to pay into a provincial fund meant to deal with such cases.
I'm sure this could have happened quite easily back in the day when if people paid by cheque or money order and did not have easy access to the Internet for information. Nowadays any "new" hotel would have a whole chain of Internet press releases behind it.
Dec 21st, 2006, 12:46 PM
#55
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OK, OK. Give me a break some of you. It's the holidays and I'm busy shopping for my family and finishing up some reservations for Rome.
First and foremost, thanks to many good ideas. For instance, this is the first time I've used Western Union. I plan on contacting them right after Christmas now knowing the ID required to pick up money overseas. I also plan on contacting the Austrian police since the money was wired and picked up in Austria since the owner implied he was a doctor and had some rental properties in Paris (this is not too uncommon, I have a business associate that rents his condo in Manilla and another that rents his condo in Florida).
I initially posted on Frommers. If you check, you will see I have used them to ask questions of others regarding Italy and southern France since I am unfamiliar with that part of Europe. I was emailed and asked by others to also post on Fodors and SlowTravel since other posters thought the comments contained good advice. I thought those requests were reasonable.
I've only started to use these forums which is the reason I don't have many posts. In fact, I didn't even knew they existed until a couple of months ago when I Googled something and Frommer's travel forum came up. I usually travel on business and know my way around those places. I find this true for most business travelers and don't find too many posts in this area so I am not much use there. This time, however, I am taking my family on a month's trip to Europe next summer. This will be the last family trip we will probably take together since my oldest daughter will be going off to college. I was using the Frommers forum to ask some questions. I know I can learn from others to avoid repeating their mistakes and to glean information for a fun trip.
A contract was electronically signed.
The house advertised was at: For the house situated in 12 Rue de Castiglione, Paris (F).
The owner's name was/is: Mr. and Mrs. Reynat, 29 Kaerntnerstrasse,1040 Wien
Osterreich
I'm sure others have had good experiences with Homelidays. I did not give up on Homelidays at first. After the initial fraud, however, I became more aware of owners' replies which I now see is a common suggestion. I found at least 3 other 'owners' responses very suspicious.
I used to speak German fluently in high school and college. I know grammar, etc. can get lost in translations and I assumed (wrongly) that what might have and should have been original concerns, I wrongly chocked up to simple translation differences. Too trusting, by fault.
I did Google "homelidays" and didn't find too much. I hope these good posts from everybody will now help others just to be very cautious, and like suggested by others, go slow, ask a lot of questions and try not to send cash.
This was my first time trying to rent an apartment. I thought I had done all my research. If it could happen to me, it could happen to any other new renter.
I have a family of 5 which others know is difficult to find a room for in Europe. Sometimes even hard to find 2 rooms for 5 in Europe (including some Hiltons).
In Paris, I eventually found Fraser Suites, Harmonie – Paris La Defense. It's a little ways up the Metro but acceptable and priced similar to an apartment. It's right next to a Metro stop.
Through my business, I can receive free Disney tickets. We are staying for several days at Marriott's Village d'lle-de-France.
In London, I found family accommodations at the Hilton London Metropole.
Yes, I am upset. I think anybody would be with the aforementioned information. I did everything I thought was prudent and reasonable and I still got ripped off. It's not thousands but $600 is still $600.
I became even more upset when Homelidays and their insurance company became silent despite reassurances on their web site that renters were not left on their own with problems.
All businesses have problems. How a company handles those problems defines the character of the company. I gave Homelidays many opportunities to resolve the problems and/or help me resolve it but they remain silent. Therefore, these comments.
Had Homelidays (and if they someday will) handled this differently, I would be more than glad to report that as well.
I hope I answered everyone's questions and concerns. And I am alive, real and a successful businessman.
Again, thanks to many great suggestions I was not aware of. Thanks again!
First and foremost, thanks to many good ideas. For instance, this is the first time I've used Western Union. I plan on contacting them right after Christmas now knowing the ID required to pick up money overseas. I also plan on contacting the Austrian police since the money was wired and picked up in Austria since the owner implied he was a doctor and had some rental properties in Paris (this is not too uncommon, I have a business associate that rents his condo in Manilla and another that rents his condo in Florida).
I initially posted on Frommers. If you check, you will see I have used them to ask questions of others regarding Italy and southern France since I am unfamiliar with that part of Europe. I was emailed and asked by others to also post on Fodors and SlowTravel since other posters thought the comments contained good advice. I thought those requests were reasonable.
I've only started to use these forums which is the reason I don't have many posts. In fact, I didn't even knew they existed until a couple of months ago when I Googled something and Frommer's travel forum came up. I usually travel on business and know my way around those places. I find this true for most business travelers and don't find too many posts in this area so I am not much use there. This time, however, I am taking my family on a month's trip to Europe next summer. This will be the last family trip we will probably take together since my oldest daughter will be going off to college. I was using the Frommers forum to ask some questions. I know I can learn from others to avoid repeating their mistakes and to glean information for a fun trip.
A contract was electronically signed.
The house advertised was at: For the house situated in 12 Rue de Castiglione, Paris (F).
The owner's name was/is: Mr. and Mrs. Reynat, 29 Kaerntnerstrasse,1040 Wien
Osterreich
I'm sure others have had good experiences with Homelidays. I did not give up on Homelidays at first. After the initial fraud, however, I became more aware of owners' replies which I now see is a common suggestion. I found at least 3 other 'owners' responses very suspicious.
I used to speak German fluently in high school and college. I know grammar, etc. can get lost in translations and I assumed (wrongly) that what might have and should have been original concerns, I wrongly chocked up to simple translation differences. Too trusting, by fault.
I did Google "homelidays" and didn't find too much. I hope these good posts from everybody will now help others just to be very cautious, and like suggested by others, go slow, ask a lot of questions and try not to send cash.
This was my first time trying to rent an apartment. I thought I had done all my research. If it could happen to me, it could happen to any other new renter.
I have a family of 5 which others know is difficult to find a room for in Europe. Sometimes even hard to find 2 rooms for 5 in Europe (including some Hiltons).
In Paris, I eventually found Fraser Suites, Harmonie – Paris La Defense. It's a little ways up the Metro but acceptable and priced similar to an apartment. It's right next to a Metro stop.
Through my business, I can receive free Disney tickets. We are staying for several days at Marriott's Village d'lle-de-France.
In London, I found family accommodations at the Hilton London Metropole.
Yes, I am upset. I think anybody would be with the aforementioned information. I did everything I thought was prudent and reasonable and I still got ripped off. It's not thousands but $600 is still $600.
I became even more upset when Homelidays and their insurance company became silent despite reassurances on their web site that renters were not left on their own with problems.
All businesses have problems. How a company handles those problems defines the character of the company. I gave Homelidays many opportunities to resolve the problems and/or help me resolve it but they remain silent. Therefore, these comments.
Had Homelidays (and if they someday will) handled this differently, I would be more than glad to report that as well.
I hope I answered everyone's questions and concerns. And I am alive, real and a successful businessman.
Again, thanks to many great suggestions I was not aware of. Thanks again!
Dec 21st, 2006, 12:51 PM
#56
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WillTravel, I didn't say it would or could happen to you or me - but if you allow me, your point of view is very, very local. Not every traveler lives in a country where such a thing like "provincially certified agencies" exists, nor in a country where internet access is as widespread as in the US of A. Tourists from, say, Croatia or Romania can easily fall victims of this kind of fraud, still today. And as for the credit card payments, see my posts above - 1. you can pay Western Union by credit card, in which case it involves absolutely no risk for you, but 2. direct credit card payments are a true risk for the receiver - your safety is his risk, since there are as many fraudulent tourists as fraudulent members of the tourism industry. To sum it up, there are just two payment options that are safe for both parties:
1. PayPal payments WITHOUT involving a credit card (PayPal provides a similar safety system as a credit card company, but for BOTH parties - but if you use your credit card for a PayPal transfer, the credit card safety system would overrule that of PayPal, and the receiver risks to be cheated by the tourist)
2. yes, actually: a Western Union transfer paid BY credit card (which is possible online). In this case, you have the safety the CC company provides while the receiver has already got the money cash, so the risk is really that of the CC company's insurance, and neither yours nor his.
1. PayPal payments WITHOUT involving a credit card (PayPal provides a similar safety system as a credit card company, but for BOTH parties - but if you use your credit card for a PayPal transfer, the credit card safety system would overrule that of PayPal, and the receiver risks to be cheated by the tourist)
2. yes, actually: a Western Union transfer paid BY credit card (which is possible online). In this case, you have the safety the CC company provides while the receiver has already got the money cash, so the risk is really that of the CC company's insurance, and neither yours nor his.
Dec 21st, 2006, 12:53 PM
#57
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Oops, sorry, I forgot to mention TripAdvisor. I just found them a couple of weeks ago. I really like how they rate hotels based upon travelers comments. It's helping me narrow down some hotels in Rome and Venice.
I see some comments about hotel rip offs. Anybody heard of anybody getting ripped off from hotels top rated at TripAdvisor (say, the top 50)?
I see some comments about hotel rip offs. Anybody heard of anybody getting ripped off from hotels top rated at TripAdvisor (say, the top 50)?
Dec 21st, 2006, 01:00 PM
#58
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Franco, how do you get the credit card company to reimburse you from Western Union?
I used my credit card with Western Union and my credit card company (First One United Mileage Plus) stated since I actually authorized the transaction, there wasn't anything they could do about it(it's not like somebody fraudulently used my credit card).
Thanks in advance!
I used my credit card with Western Union and my credit card company (First One United Mileage Plus) stated since I actually authorized the transaction, there wasn't anything they could do about it(it's not like somebody fraudulently used my credit card).
Thanks in advance!
Dec 21st, 2006, 01:01 PM
#59
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mwiars - thanks for writing all this - it has been a stressful time for you.
Please keep us up to date with your attempts to derail this fraud. I am sure that you can tell homelidays that there are a lot of prople on this forum very interested in how they handle customer service. You might want to send them a link to your thread.
Good luck.
Please keep us up to date with your attempts to derail this fraud. I am sure that you can tell homelidays that there are a lot of prople on this forum very interested in how they handle customer service. You might want to send them a link to your thread.
Good luck.
Dec 21st, 2006, 01:02 PM
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Paypal will protect you to a degree, but only on tangible goods, not services. Even then, it's iffy.
I bought an item that was covered by Paypal's Buyers Protection Plan. I never received it and filed a claim with Paypal. They investigated, ruled in my favor but didn't give me a refund because the seller had emptied their account. Should the seller ever have a positive balance in their Paypal account, they assured me they would freeze the funds and refund my purchase. I'm not holding my breath.
I bought an item that was covered by Paypal's Buyers Protection Plan. I never received it and filed a claim with Paypal. They investigated, ruled in my favor but didn't give me a refund because the seller had emptied their account. Should the seller ever have a positive balance in their Paypal account, they assured me they would freeze the funds and refund my purchase. I'm not holding my breath.
