DejaDeb

My husband and I are planning a "once-in-a-lifetime" 16-day trip (actual time there, not including flying) to the UK this fall. We plan to fly into London and spend several days there, then rent a car and drive around the countryside; we hope to include Wales and Scotland. Our return flight departs from Edinburgh.

We'd like to see as much HISTORY and NATURAL BEAUTY as we can, and would very much appreciate some feedback on the following travel itinerary, including the order in which we should arrange our itinerary (to eliminate "back & forth" driving), how much time we should allocate to each area, what we might want to eliminate in the interest of time, what we absolutely should not miss, etc.

Even as I'm writing this, I'm thinking we might have to take Canterbury and Dover off our itinerary and head from London straight to Hampton Court, Kew,etc ... although I would like to see Sissinghurst and Hever Castles. Since we're driving (except for inside London), we have a lot of flexibility in our travel plans. Here's our preliminary itinerary:

London (4 days)
Canterbury Cathedral
Dover Castle
Sissinghurst Gardens
Hever Castle
Hampton Court Palace
Kew Gardens
Windsor Castle
Winchester Cathedral
Salisbury Cathedral
Stonehenge
Bath
Coswolds
Cardiff Castle (WALES)
Warwick Castle (is this more of an "attraction?")
Beaumaris (WALES)
Conwy Castle (WALES)
Rievaulx Abbey (YORKSHIRE)
York
Fountains Abbey (NORTH YORKSHIRE)
Whitby Abbey (NORTH YORKSHIRE)
Barnard Castle (NORTH YORKSHIRE)
Hadrians Wall
Glasgow (Scotland)
Stirling (Scotland)
Edinburgh (Scotland)

Whew, that DOES look like a lot -- I'm sure some things will have to go! I really appreciate any constructive advice! Thanks in advance!

ira

Hi DD,

Have you used www.viamichelin.com to plot your routes and travel times?

stevelyon

Whew, this indeed is a lot. Others will be much more skillful in pointing out the pitfalls of your itinerary, but I will offer some suggestions. Cotswolds is an area not a town, you could do with researching where in particular you want to visit. I think you can sacrifice Hadrians Wall and Whitby Abbey (the latter is indeed located in a beautiful town but if you have limited time then I would take it out) Glasgow could also go. I would go direct from York to Edinburgh and possibly leave out Stirling. Allocate your time between London, York and Edinburgh - Rievaulx and Fountains Abbey are side trips from York but aren't must sees. Hope this helps.

janisj

Your list would be next to impossible in a month let alone 2+ weeks. So you need to cut more than a few of the places from your list

But just some random thoughts:

• Hampton Court Palace and Kew Gardens are in outer London and MUCH easier to do by public transport from the city center than by car. Windsor Castle is just outside London (very near LHR) and an easy day trip by train. Add a few days to London and do these from the city.

• You don't have time for London and parts of 3 countries. London/Yorkshire/Scotland would fill your time. <B>OR</B> London/Bath/the Cotswolds/bits of Wales. <B>OR</B> London, the southeast/Salisbury/Stonehenge/Bath. Something along those lines

• So back to the drawing board and refocus . . .

Morgana

My head is spinning just reading that list and it needs a lot of trimming down! But I'll leave one of our itinerary 'experts' to do that - I don't quite know where to start except your end list is going to be about half what it is now!
I should be able to help you with your Yorkshire part once you have sorted things out a bit more. Barnard Castle isn't in North Yorkshire by the way, it's in County Durham - why do you want to go there? The Bowes Museum?
You clearly have a big interest in Abbeys - which would make Fountains Abbey a 'must see' as a World Heritage site I would have thought. But there are other Abbeys up here - Mount Grace, Byland, Jervaulx.

ron

It strikes me you have used up at least 11 days by the time you get done with the Cotswolds on your list. With the five remaining days, you could choose Wales or North Yorkshire/County Durham or Edinburgh/Glasgow.

annhig

good grief - more like two months to do these places justice.

in 16 days you have time to do 3 places thoroughly,

starting in london, you could do this:

5 days in london, 5 in yorkshire [get the train from London to York, then from York to Edinburgh] 5 in Edinburgh.

or 5 days in London, 5 days in sussex, fly from Gatwick to Edinburgh, etc.

or...well, you get the idea.

bilboburgler

I've culled the bits that don't hit your objectives
London (4 days)
Canterbury Cathedral
Hampton Court Palace
Windsor Castle
Winchester Cathedral
Salisbury Cathedral
Stonehenge
Bath
Cardiff Castle (WALES)
Beaumaris (WALES)
Conwy Castle (WALES)
Rievaulx Abbey (YORKSHIRE)
York
Fountains Abbey (NORTH YORKSHIRE)
Whitby Abbey (NORTH YORKSHIRE)
Barnard Castle (NORTH YORKSHIRE)
Hadrians Wall
Stirling (Scotland)
Edinburgh (Scotland)

I'd tun google maps against this list and see how it looks

DejaDeb

Thanks for the replies so far. Not really what I wanted to hear, but definitely what I NEEDED to hear: My "dream list" is just that ... not a reality. **sigh**

I'll start by taking Canterbury and Dover off the list and adding extra days to London, so Hampton Court Palace, Kew Gardens, and Windsor Castle will be "easy day trips."

Cotswold is also off the list. I really wanted to visit that area -- with their "quintessentially" English cottages -- but it sounds like that could take an entire week (not that that would be a bad thing, but just not this trip.)

Now to go back and refocus ...

janisj

quick study

I'd consider a full week in London - that would give you a chance for a day trip to Bath. This would still be VERY rushed and you might decide to drop one or more of the day trips once you are in London.

In your re-thinking, do consider a combo of train/rental car. It could stretch your too short time just a bit. . .

For instance something like London w/o a car (of course), train to York. One day/night there car-less and see the city. Collect a car the next morning, explore the Abbeys/Castle Howard. One more night in York. Next day see Whitby etc. and drive on to Northumberland. Spend the next two nights in this area for the Wall and Alnwick Castle/Gardens.

Then up to Edinburgh/Stirling/etc. for the rest of your time.

This is just one option - but gets you on the right track.

sarahpoppet27

Hello

One more Brit adding her thoughts to the mix, so here goes

- You're attempting too much in 16 days. Sorry. A lot of the things are similar to each other, so don't worry about cutting some out.

- Kew and Hampton Court Palace are London attractions and can be done in one of your London days. Don't rent a car in the city. Public transport is very good here.

- Canterbury, Dover and Cardiff are 'meh' in my opinion. Not a great deal to see and a great distance between them

- Bath, Salisbury, Stratford-Upon-Avon (I know you didn't mention it but Shakespeare!) and small Cotswolds villages should be done in one burst.

- I would then go to York, Fountains/ Bolton Abbey/ Pickering and Whitby. You could take a train to York or Leeds. PS, forget Barnard Castle. You'll get the same thrill from, say, Pickering castle and it's on the way from York to Whitby.

- Then dump the car (if you still have it) and book a train to Edinburgh. York to Ed is easy, comfortable and so scenic. You could get a single from York to Ed, then a single from Ed back to London (presume that's where you're flying home from?) and if timed well, might be cheaper than a round trip return.

Don't forget our trains are not like in the US, they're a major part of British life and we use them very regularly.

Hope this helps!

sarahpoppet27

ALSO
Oh god, don't swap the Cotswolds for Windsor IMHO!!

Windsor is full of tat: union jacks, overpriced teddies, chain restaurants (sad) and Japanese tourists. Getting lost in Cotswolds villages is lovely..you will regret it if you don't see quintessential English countryside.

Speaking as a resident of London, I wouldn't spend more than 4 days here. It will knock you out. Mentally, and money-wise. x

ron

Deb, you are leaping from one unrealistic side to the other too quickly. Your original plan would have given you maybe 1 hour as you drove across one corner of the Cotswolds on your way from Bath to Cardiff. Now you say you are dropping the Cotswolds, because it would take a week. No it won't. For most visitors, one day would give a solid overview and understanding of the area - you could see a couple of villages, admire one of the great wool churches, see the fields of rape and flax, etc.

Really, think that you can see at most two attractions a day, use the RAC or AA journey planners to compute travel times and pick 10 to 12 things you really want to see after London.

historytraveler

The following website works well for the UK:

www.theaa.com/route-planner

You will need to add another 30% (or more) to their times.

janisj

Sarahoppet: Dover Castle is meh and not a great deal to see?? Canterbury Cathedral - meh? Not that they necessarily have time for them - depending on what is cut.But Dover Castle is just about THE premier medieval castle in the UK - not even taking the Roman, Victorian and WWII bits into account.

And - they are flying out of Edinburgh.

texasbookworm

I hope your plans are coming together quickly and smoothly for you.

There are many good suggestions above.

We planned a pretty ambitious 13 day trip (4 nights in London and 9 on the road) in 2010--after London we went (one night each, but several hours in almost every spot) to Oxford, Shrewsbury, Conwy, Carlisle, along Hadrian's Wall all day and spent night in Durham, York, a stop in Lincoln on the way to free hotel east of London, Dover, and a couple stops on way back to London for one night before plane. It was wonderful for us that year. But it was ambitious. We had to wave at the Cotswolds basically and fly through (ok, we kinda crawled in traffic sometimes) the Lake District. But you'll see we didn't make it to Scotland. And we had to fly in and out of LHR (FF tickets). And we'd been to England before and so had already seen Stonehenge, Bath, Salisbury, Warwick, and Stratford so didn't try to repeat those--but all of those are great.

If you're willing to do some one-night stays (maybe lots of them) after London, you can see a good bit. But probably not all on your original list, as you are seeing. But if you want to go quickly and not linger, this is YOUR trip--you don't have to travel like anyone else. But the advice above is very very practical and to the point.

Which is a vague way of saying I'd suggest you shorten your list, but only you know which sights are most important. Then plan your travel so you can make it to those sights BUT you must allow adequate travel time. I used googlemaps to guesstimate and then DOUBLED it to be sure to have enough time in wherever we were going. In actuality, we took 1.25 to 1.5 times the suggeted times on googlemaps (usually closer to 1.5). So by planning for twice as long as internet sites said, we always made it with enough time to do some sightseeing. We did not encounter any major weather, traffic, wrecks or construction, which I think for 2 weeks in summer in England is rather unusual. So just allow plenty of extra time for those car travel stints.

And have a blast and write a Trip Report when you return! (If you have any inclination and want to see how we did our travel, you can read my TR from 2010. http://www.fodors.com/community/euro...-and-wales.cfm

In 2008 we spent 2 wonderful weeks in London and made 5 day trips via train and bus--that was cool, too.http://www.fodors.com/community/euro...-day-trips.cfm)

sarahpoppet27

Janis J - I was being cut throat with her itinerary in the interests of little time she has. I guess you have to be pretty ruthless in deciding places, and I would say Dover and Canterbury are big detours. Whereas the Yorkshire castles and Abbeys trip can incorporate a city visit and an English seaside visit.

janisj

I totally agree they are detours and won't fit here (unless they cut Yorkshire/Scotland/etc) . . . But Dover Castle and Canterbury Cathedral definitely are not 'meh' . . .

DejaDeb

Thank you, everyone!! JANISJ ("quick study" LOL!) and SARAHPOPPET27, I don't think any site on my list is "meh" ;-) but I TOTALLY get that I have to cut some things out, so it's best for us to drop the the Canterbury/Dover part of our trip and focus west (Bath) and north (York.) Thank you, HISTORYTRAVELER, for the "AA" link -- I haven't checked it out yet, but I will; and TEXASBOOKWORM, I will definitely read your Trip Reports! We don't mind "one-night stands" if that means we get more bang for our buck!

Well, we're NOT skipping Windsor but will see about at least driving through the Cotswolds (thanks, RON ... I think, LOL!)

Okay, so in doing some re-thinking, maybe after London:

Sissinghurst Gardens, Leeds Castle, Hever Castle
(I'm thinking maybe we can see these in one day? Or maybe we should leave these out entirely?)

Salisbury, Avebury (?), Bath (maybe spend an extra day here)

Wales via Cotswolds (can anyone suggest a scenic route from Bath to, I guess, Bristol? That looks like the "jumping point" to Wales.) In Wales: Chepstow Castle, Tintern Abbey, Monmouth Castle (these seem to be in the lower corner and thus doable in maybe one day.)

Drive to York (again, suggestions for scenic routes are welcome! ) Visit town of York, Fountains Abbey, Rievaulx Abbey, Richmond Castle, Byland Abbey, Whitby Abbey (this may be ambitious and we may have to cull this a bit.)

Drive up to Scotland (or is this the time to dump the car and take a train?) Figure out how many days are left after the above itinerary before determining what to visit in Scotland, LOL.

I very much appreciate everyone's input!!

annhig

Sissinghurst Gardens, Leeds Castle, Hever Castle
(I'm thinking maybe we can see these in one day? Or maybe we should leave these out entirely?)>>

you might do two out of these three in a day, but you'd need a car to do it. you could add Penshurst to Hever, or Chiddingstone. [where they have a small castle but also a lovely unspoilt village where they often film because there are no phone lines etc.]

the countryside round these places is lovely too, which is why i suggested staying in Sussex and spending a few days exploring that area - there is loads to see and do.