Help with Tuscany part of trip next spring
 

Hello,

I truly apologize in advance for the length of this!

After a long wait our family is formally planning for a trip next May 2023 to Italy. This has been a dream for a couple of years now, but life situations (Covid, aging parents, children moving and changing jobs, etc.) have kept it from coming to fruition. We’re finally at a place where hopefully our family trip is going to occur. Fingers crossed!

We’ve changed the area we want to visit for this trip. We decided Tuscany (rather than Umbria) will be where we venture, before going to Rome. I’ve been doing a lot of reading of advice and thoughts on the fodor’s forum and am trying to incorporate what we would find pleasurable and will tweak it (again and again I’m sure!) because of the amazing advice. For a newbie traveler like me I can’t thank you all enough for all of your posts! We’ve penciled in Friday, May 19 flying out from WAS, arrival at FCO early on Saturday May 20th and then we’d return from FCO home on May 29, so basically 8 full days to explore.

I’m trying to decide on where to base in Tuscany if we decided not to rent a car. (I’ll get to that part later). My first thought is basing ourselves in Siena and then use the public transportation to see some of the beautiful areas. From my initial research it seems bus lines 112 and 114 go to many of the small Southern Tuscany towns we’d like to see: Buonconvento, montepulciano, San Quirico, and Pienza, BUT it seems most don’t leave Siena till almost lunchtime and I don’t know if you could see more than one town in a day with the schedules being what they are. I’m still trying to figure out how to read the schedules, but I worry about heading out by bus to see these places and being really pressured by the pick up times in order to see more than one, or get back to Siena. If anyone could share their experiences with this option, I’d be very thankful. We could train to Arezzo and Florence for day trips easily from Siena - which is nice, plus it’s Siena. My daughter loved That town when she was abroad and many on the forum have spoken of it as a good base for those who aren’t driving.

Just the other day I read a thread about someone suggesting Buonconvento as a good location because of its train station and the capability of taking shorter trips to the above towns from there, as well as still being able to go to Siena or Florence or Arezzo for a longer trip. We want a mix of seeing the mid sized towns like Siena maybe Florence or Arezzo, but balancing it with small, quaint places, too.

There’s so much beauty in that region. With our time I’m really conflicted with how much to give Rome at the end. My daughter has been to Rome, but neither my son nor I have. The area of Tuscany speaks more to my interests, but I feel we need to spend at least a couple days there.

About the car. I’m not totally against the prospect of driving once we got to Tuscany, but it does give me pause. I just do not know if I’d be as relaxed and enjoy the scenery if I was trying to drive and locate places. I drove a manual 15-20 years ago, and think I could do it again with some practice. The cost of an automatic is about double for 5 days rental out of Siena, so thats a big obstacle. Neither of my kids drives a stick.

Anyway, I’ve babbled on too long already! If any of you could give me your thoughts on staying in Siena and using the buses and trains vs. staying in one of the outer towns (using public transportation or a car) and even about the car situation overall, I’d really appreciate it!

Again, all of you that share your time and posts are a tremendous help! I’ve got a notebook that is divided with all the info from everyone- Umbria info from all who are veterans of there, and now I’ll add Tuscany. I can’t wait to visit both!

You've discovered the difficulties of exploring Tuscany without a car. Bus service is commuter/student friendly, and not particularly tourist friendly. Most of the towns that tourists want to visit don't have train service.

For me, driving is easy and much more enjoyable than riding buses and being constrained by timetables. Deputize your kids as co-pilots to manage the GPS and watch for each town's parking signs.

Double-check that Siena-Arezzo day trip by train. By my search, it's at least 2.5 hours each way, and the last return departs before 9:00p.

You need to decide how many days/nights you'll spend in Rome. You can't figure out anything else until you know that part of your itinerary. I will point out that you could spend the entire 8 days in Rome and not see everything. If you wanted to visit a small town from Rome, you could day trip to Orvieto, Tivoli and/or Frascati. BTW, the train ride Rome-Florence is about the same length as Siena-Florence... 90 minutes each way.

Thanks for your reply Jean. I’m leaning toward spending more time in Tuscany than Rome right now, maybe split it 5 days in Tuscany and 3 in Rome. I am much more inclined and happy to spend time in a landscape environment than urban, small towns I favor. I think if we planned our Rome days well - but leave time for spontaneity of course! we’d be OK with three full days. I was wrong to put a trip to Arezzo by train from Siena as a doable day trip; it is about 1:15 to 1:30 by Bus #138 Autolinee Toscane from Via Tozzi. That could work I think. As you said, the train is much longer.

If we decided to hire the car, I think having one of my children be my co-pilot would take some of the pressure off. If we were to choose to stay in Siena over one of the Tuscan towns, I’ll need to research where to park outside of the city I assume. Is that a hassle? Looking forward to reading more replies with insight into this part of the trip planning.

If you pick Siena, look at the Hotel Palazzo Ravizza. It has its own parking lot. The front door of the hotel is inside the ZTL, but the parking lot on the back side is outside. (You can drive to the front door to check in, and the hotel will report your license plate so no citation is issued.) From the parking lot, it's just a couple of turns to leave the city and return, and it's an easy walk (a few blocks) to the Campo. The only downside to the Ravizza is that it's on the opposite side of Siena from the train station and about a 15-20 minute walk to the bus station, so it would be more or less a commitment to do your exploring by car.

And if you pick Siena, consider doing some of your exploring north into Chianti (Castellina, Radda, etc.) and through the Val d'Elsa to San Gimignano and Volterra. One thing that may have less interest to your kids: Abbazia di Monte Oliveto Maggiore near Asciano. It's an active monastery with beautiful grounds and a couple of fresco cycles. Closed in the middle of the day, so plan accordingly.

I would explore the Val d'Orcia area over two days and go beyond the well-traveled road between Montepulciano and Montalcino.... to Montichiello, Bagno Vignoni, perhaps the garden at La Foce.

Tuscany is pretty hilly and that makes access by trains a bit difficult and equally buses have to really twist and turn to get to the hill towns so I might modify my trip a bit to focus on trains. Dig out a Tuscan train map and a whole different bunch of towns appear. Buonconvento is the obvious one but also places like Colle di val d'Elsa which is fantastically beautiful and more or less the new town is in a valley bottom, while the old town (via lift) is on a ridge. It needs different sort of planning but worth it none the less.

We always rent cars in Tuscany and Umbria. It will give you the freedom to explore the charming small towns. Honestly, I can’t imagine trying to see Tuscany without a car.
Siena is a good base and you can easily explore the Chianti region along the historic Chiantigianna, SS222 from there- Castellina, , Radda, Panzano, Greve and many more.

Must be an old "Tuscan train map." Colle Val d'Elsa doesn't have train service.

Buonconvento does have a train station, but there are only a couple of hotels within walking distance. Check their reviews carefully.

You are right Jean, but Poggibonsi does and then that is a short hop across by bus (15 minutes) or taxi (10 minutes)

I admit I prefer to cycle through Tuscany than take the car, but a lot of people would hire a car. Deciding to take public transport is an interesting idea and is worth investigating, but it does mean you need to be more flexible.

I'd probably start with rome2rio website to get a good idea of possibilities but click through to confirm certainties as the data can be corrupted.

Ok, so I’m definitely warming to the idea of a car hire. (Cue the inner Little Blue Engine in me- “I think I can, I think I can”. 😊)

If that happens I’m inclined to maybe use an outlying Tuscan town to use as a base. So many to choose from! I’ve been looking at those suggested In the Val d’Elsa, thank you! Since we’d be in this area for less than a full week, would we need to look solely at hotels? Wasn’t sure if flats would consider shorter stays.

Also, With the original dates planned I’m running into some challenges for the car situation and Sundays in Siena. (Not boy is there no chance I hiring a car with the old dates, I’ve read Siena is not as great to visit on A Sunday)

SO….I’m thinking, if I could get my two working young professionals to agree with having a vacation that started on a Wednesday of one work week and spanned across another to this plan 2 may solve the car hire office time opening constraints and let us visit Siena on a weekday:

Wednesday May 24 fly out of WAS to FCO
Thur May 25 arrive early - train to Siena stay night 1 there
Fri., May 26 Siena
Sat., May 27 pick up car by noon in Siena drive to ————- (Tuscan town)
Sun., May 28 explore Tuscany
Mon., May 29. Tuscany (maybe train to Florence)
Tue. May 30 explore Tuscany
Wed, May 31 return car to Siena catch train to Rome (1/2 day in the PM hopefully in Rome)
Thur., June 1 Rome
Fri. June 2 Rome
Sat., June 3 fly home

(this plan will also give one kid a chance to drive back to his home on Sunday and be able to go back to work Monday)

Still thinking on

*whether it’d be better to base in Siena or to stay in a beautiful town
*which town?

Thanks so much for any and all thoughts about what I’ve presented thus far!

The other town? oh boy a big question, are you
religious?
interested in wine?
want a spa?
interested in Eutruscans?
have loads of money?
want to stay on a farm or in a town?

all changes the answer

Before you settle on a second town to stay in, check the drive times to everywhere else on your wish list. If it was my trip, I'd stay another night in Siena and visit San Gimignano and Volterra in a day, then change hotels (on Sunday) to something closer to (or in) the Val d'Orcia. Pick up the car in Siena when the office opens Saturday morning and get an early start.

The car rental element of travel planning has certainly become more challenging (and expensive) in these post-Covid days. Rather than returning the car in Siena, see if dropping it at Chiusi would work with your sightseeing plans. It's closer to the Val d'Orcia towns you mention, but there could be a one-way surcharge and limits on which rental companies you could use. Worth a look. Some trains Chiusi-Rome are direct, no change, take 2 hours or less. All trains Siena-Rome involve a change and take 3.5 hours or more.

Good advice from Jean

Jean that’s solid information, thank you. I’m definitely going to add that piece of info about the car drop off. Just to clarify, I understand you to suggest picking up the car on Sat while they are open, see the towns of Volterra and SG, then stay in Siena Saturday before heading out to our next town for an early start Sunday? I’ve read Volterra is special, so I think that might be a plan piece we may do.

Bilboburgler to answer your questions and maybe give you some insight into us:
* yes
*as the kids say - “ mid”
*nah
*yes- one of my two kids is a conservator/ historian
*a very B$G nah
*probably a town for possibility of restaurants, shoppes?

thanks to both of you!

I think renting a car will be very helpful for your exploration of Tuscany. Your trip is a year away which is plenty of time for your kids to also learn to drive a manual car (and it's a good skill to have!)

It truly is KTravel. One question about car hires and additional drivers, do they allow for another without an additional charge?

"Or do you mean keep the same plan as above, pick up the car on Sat while they are open, stay in Siena another night then head out to our next town for an early start Sunday?"

Yes, but the early start would be Saturday if you wanted to spend that day visiting San Gimignano and another town, say Volterra or Castellina. Get to the car rental office when it opens Saturday morning. Return to Siena for a final night and head to the next hotel destination on Sunday. That would give you the most time to visit towns.

OR, get that early start on Saturday, check out of the Siena hotel, visit San Gimignano and another town and then drive to somewhere in the Val d'Orcia, say San Quirico. (Siena/SanG/Castellina/San Quirico would be about 3 hours of driving altogether. Substituting Volterra for Castellina would add 20-30 minutes.) You wouldn't have loads of time in either town, but the drives are beautiful and you do have the advantage of sunset not occurring until after 8:30p. You'd need to rent a car that holds the luggage out of sight.

But It's sorta throwing darts at a map until you get a handle on where, exactly, you want to go, your sightseeing priorities, how early you're willing to start, and how much driving you want to do in a day. As you've got a good 6-8 months until you need to book the land stuff, take the time to find info on the many lovely towns in Tuscany, drive times, etc. Find the towns that are most appealing to you and your collective interests. With luck, the car rental issues will settle down in your favor, and you can look at logistics a little differently.

The best thing to remember is that there are no wrong choices. You're not going to see everything. You just need to have a trip you all enjoy.

FWIW, there is a very good Etruscan museum in Volterra and an archeology museum in Chiusi that includes a significant Etruscan collection.

I think most rental car companies do charge a bit extra for additional drivers.

A brain wave:

Thurs., 5/25. Arrive FCO. Train to Chiusi (2:44 hrs.). Depending on the timing, buy some snacks to eat on the train or have lunch in Chiusi. Rent the car and drive to hotel in, say, Pienza or San Quirico (about an hour). Driving away from Chiusi is easy.
Fri., 5/26. Explore Tuscany.
Sat., 5/27. Explore Tuscany.
Sun., 5/28. Explore Tuscany.
Mon., 5/29. Drive back to Chiusi (about an hour), return the car and train to Siena (90 minutes).
Tues., 5/30. Explore Siena.
Wed., 5/31. Train to Rome. FYI, some trains Siena-Rome involve a change in Florence. You could store your luggage at the Florence station, have lunch, wander, then continue to Rome. It's about 90 minutes Siena-Florence and about 90 minutes Florence-Rome.

thank youu

Others can certainly add/subtract from this but DH and I were able to bus and train very easily from Florence and Pisa. Florence's driving zones rules always comes up. Siena is a must see but the stations are not convenient to the historic district.

Thanks to your brain wave Jean. That may make for a good option, especially if there is an issue (or proves to be cost prohibitive) in terms of a one way car hire. You mentioned that it is easy driving out of Chiusi, is driving out of Siena much more complex? I’m going to do some research - I definitely have the time lol) on some of these towns that could be our bases if we opt not to stay in Siena.

Pienza on first glance (I’ve been cooped up in the house due to this dreary, dreary weather so I’m glancing a lot today!) looks like it might be nice. We’d like something not too small, with shoppes and the potential to go to a market or two, and hopefully gives us the ability to feel a part of the culture in this area of Italy. I’m looking forward to learning more! Thanks everyone!

TDudette, your posts and TRs are so wonderful to read and I’ve taken many mental and actual notes from them. I hope we can fit in Florence, but Siena is a must for us. Daughter just loved that place!

Thanks, fernweh1! I'm looking forward to reading all about your trip.

Driving away from Siena isn't difficult, but....

Siena is a fairly big city now, bigger than the idea most people have of the place. (Its population is about 5x that of Chiusi.) On our last visit, pre-Covid so maybe 5 years ago, we encountered slow traffic both leaving and returning from daily excursions, generally in what we would call rush hours. Depending on where you're headed and where your hotel is can make a big difference because you can't drive across the city, you have to drive around it. The Hotel Palazzo Ravizza (I think I mentioned it upthread) is very convenient for most excursions and for getting away, just a few turns to leave and return, but the rush hour traffic is still there. Check the location of any car rental company you're considering. Some are in more convenient locations than others. We've used Hertz which is just a block or two from the train station. Europcar and Locauto seem to be in a fairly remote spots, so you'd need to taxi. I think Avis has left Siena. I don't know of any other companies.

Look at maps.google.com. Search "car rentals Siena Italy" and "car rentals Chiusi Italy" and note how tiny the town of Chiusi is in comparison to Siena and how close the rental offices are to the train station and to the road that takes you away from the city center. I suppose Chiusi now also has its version of rush hours, but the population is so much smaller that I can't imagine the traffic amounts to much. Chiusi also has an Avis office in addition to Europcar and Hertz.

We did encounter traffic driving in and out of Siena (from the previously mentioned Hotel Palazzo Ravizza, which we loved.) It is a great place to stay if you want to concentrate on Siena and perhaps just do a day trip. However, if your focus is being out and about, I think Jean's suggestion is a good one to consider. I haven't been to Chiusi.

I had a conversation with the kids about next year (Happy Mother's Day to all who are celebrating it!) and we are leaning toward staying outside of Siena and taking a day trip there. I have been looking and reading about San Quirico and Montepulciano. Both of these towns would be a short drive, like Pienza, from Chiusi after we pick up the car. (BTW, I tried plugging in a one way hire on AutoEurope, Hertz and Europecar from Siena just to investigate that first option, but had no luck. Kept showing a disclaimer about the added costs, but then would not let me choose a drop off site after trying to identify a vehicle. I did it with numerous dates in this calendar year just to see, but couldn't get anywhere. Maybe it would work later as time got closer)

All of those towns are options as they come in around/under an hour drive- according to Google maps- to many of the places we are interested in. I guess if we centered ourselves in that area of Tuscany, we may forgo seeing San Gimignano, Colle and Volterra, but I would rather not drive too much of the time. I think an hour or less to get to the first stop is enough for me. I just hope that keeping Siena as a full day trip will suffice. I also need to consider the timeframe for touring as I do not want to drive at night. I'd like to be back to our base for dinner each night, so keeping places to see a bit closer would be wise.

Thanks again for all your advice thus far!

You might try calling AutoEurope or Kemwel (owned by the same company but I have found they sometimes have different options) and discussing this by phone. I have found them to be helpful.

San Quirico vs Montepulciano
 

I have stayed in both places in the past and will again stay in San Quirico during an upcoming trip, picking up a rental car in Chiusi. Your children, I think, will enjoy staying in Montepulciano much more than San Quirico. It’s a fun, walkable town to wander around in with lots of shopping and several good restaurants. San Quirico is a very small village, more a one butcher and one baker kind of place, though also with a few good restaurants, which is why I enjoy staying there. I think it might seem too quiet for them.

thanks Italynovice for information on those two towns. They both are definitely options for us. I should clarify, my two “ kids” are in their mid to late twenties, so not really what most would think are kids! (How old do they have to be before I stop calling them my kids? Lol)

I don’t think quiet would bother them too much at all. If one is less touristy over the other and is more conducive to getting a feel for the culture there, they would lean toward that. I think having the end of the trip in Rome and the day trip to Siena will give them enough of an urban “fix”. What are suggestions for accommodations for either SQ or Montepulciano?

Couple of updates on information I have posted, maybe sharing will help others looking at similar travel. I emailed EuropCar about the one way drop off from Siena to Chiusi. It is an option and based on 2022 would be an additional 40 euro charge pus VAT. I thought that was a reasonable charge actually, I was expecting much more. I’m still run leaning towards Jean’s Chiusi plan, but it’s good to know that we could do the other if we wanted to.

I much prefer Montepulciano too, but I hesitated to recommend it too highly to someone who is a bit hesitant about driving a stick shift car. The approaches to both Pienza and SanQ are flatter. Montepulciano isn't crazy difficult, but you might want to pick your lodging with ingress/egress in mind. (No shortage of charming lodging in Montepulciano!) All three towns are quieter at night, but SanQ is pretty quiet during the day, too.

A one-way surcharge of 40-45 euros doesn't sound bad at all and is only a few euros more than the train fare Chiusi-Siena x4.

I knew you meant young adults, I still call mine children in their 30s! I just meant a few more things to do like coffee shops, wine bars, and some shops for gifts to bring back home. San Quirico has no cars on their one primary village street, so we parked outside of the village and walked up stairs to our Air BnB. I recall one shop on that street, one mini store for basic grocery items, and a bar/cafe with coffee in the morning and wine/beer in the evening. We were across the street from their one bakery. There is a fancy hotel with a nice restaurant with outdoor seating. There is a peaceful Romanesque church. Villagers wandering down the street in the evenings, children playing. There is a butcher and true grocery store on the periphery but not really in the walking part of the village. I am staying again in an air BnB for my upcoming trip that opens to the main walking street. The village is fairly flat which is helpful given my knee issues.
I have stayed at the Politian Apartments in Montepulciano. The owner was delightful and location perfect. It was close to the entrance of the town and parking was handy very near by. We walked everywhere in the town and only used the car for day trips. There is definitely some hilly walking! Both of these trips were within the past 6 or 7 years, so fairly recent recollections.

KyBourbon, great information, thank you! One question though, how can you get that bus link to show in English? I’ve seen British flags that when clicked translate, but didn’t see anything for that link. I agree that arriving on a Saturday to FCO is going to make a car pick up outside the airport difficult. It’ll be our first time navigating all of this - well, my first time anyway- and I’m sure we’ll be slow due to that. I thought if we do go the car hire route I am going to need to leave DC either on Wednesday night or Thursday night regardless of where we base.

italynovice, the village “feel” information on SQ, Pienza and Montepulciano gives us more to think about, also. I’m going to need to see what my two are thinking along those lines. Jean mentioned Montepulciano being on some hilly territory. If I were able to practice some on a manual on ascending and descending hills , would it be too difficult if we decided on that size town? I actually looked briefly at those apartments. One site said they were temporarily closed. Not sure if it was accurate. Anyway, thanks to all of you for your thoughts!

**KyBourbon, great information, thank you! One question though, how can you get that bus link to show in English? I’ve seen British flags that when clicked translate, but didn’t see anything for that link. **

LOL. Many Italian websites have an English link, but no actual English pages. If they do have any English, they don't translate everything such as Trenitalia. Trenitalia has some discounts or special fares that are only on the Italian web pages. What did you want to know about the buses? I have a color coded map of the bus routes with bus numbers for Siena province (which is the area that includes Pienza, Montalcino, etc.) at home, but I'm traveling at the moment. Might fly home tomorrow and then I could scan it.

**Jean mentioned Montepulciano being on some hilly territory.**

Montepuliciano is hilly, but you can't drive in it anyway because of ZTL. Most of the hilltowns have parking lots at the edges and some hotels/apartments will give you a pass to park in one of those. You park and walk in. Montalcino is steeper to reach than Montepulciano, but the town itself is not as hilly. Pienza is not steep to reach (but has some sweeping views in places) and the town itself is flat. All have ZTL (as does Siena, Florence, Rome, etc.). Montepulciano has a little internal bus that runs from the edge through the town so you don't have to walk the steep streets if you don't want. The others don't. San Gimignano has a bus that runs around the edge, but the town itself is basically flat.

It appears Montepulciano has a spring fair in May so that may affect traffic/parking and hotel availability. Check for fairs/festivals for the places you are thinking about staying. I've been in Montepulciano right before the rolling of the barrels (they were practicing) and it wasn't so crowded, but I imagine it would be on the actual day.

You will need an international driver's permit and learn the road signs. You will have to wait until closer to departure to get the permit because they expire.

I have visited the area by bus (Montepulicano, Pienza, Montalcino, Siena, San G) so it's not impossible. It's just not as flexible because schedules are more for workers and students, not tourists. Siena is the only one that would have any nightlife for young adults because they have a college, but it's mostly outside the historic center in the newer parts of town.

I've stayed in these apartments in Pienza. They have a nice interior garden, but most don't have comfortable seating inside. Wicker chairs or just kitchen chairs.

https://www.ilgiardinosegretopienza.it/il-giardino/

https://www.portalepienza.it/

https://www.prolocomontepulciano.it/en/

Here's a trip report from Jaime and Scott that covers the towns you are thinking about. It's dead of winter, but still talks about parking, rental cars, etc. along with Jaime's fabulous pics.

https://www.fodors.com/community/eur...years-1001129/

The Politian Apartments in Montepulciano are closed. I hope it's not permanent. Check again later in the year.

You can't totally avoid hills in Tuscany. Every town (whether you stay in it or visit) or the road you take to reach it will have a hill/hills, ranging from gentle slope to steeper incline. Every town will also have a ZTL in effect for at least part of the day, most days of the week. We found it very easy to park just outside the towns' historical centers, and since they don't want you driving into the centers, the parking is well-signed. The towns aren't large, so walking in/out isn't a trek, even with luggage.

BetweenSiena and Florence you will find the historic SS222 with the charming Chianti villages along it. We have stayed in those villages four times and think it is the perfect location for exploring that part of Tuscany. ( Radda, Castellina, Panzano, Greve, and more)
We always visit Siena and have found parking diane’s up the hill every time.