sweetannie

I posted several weeks earlier and received some good suggestions, and am back for more ideas.

Here is what is set.
-Traveling 2 weeks (including travel) US to Zurich and back in early/mid May.
-Traveling w/ elderly parents, my father uses a walker, so this presents its own limitations (such as no pedestrian only towns).
-We will be driving everywhere.
-Primary interest is visiting Alsace.

Right now, I'm looking at a few nights in Black Forest, then on to Alsace, then looping back around to Switzerland to end up back in Zurich. But, mostly it's about Alsace and trying to round out the rest of the trip.

We like interesting historical sites, wine, good food, pretty drives, and smaller charming towns. I understand that early May might be rather cold in certain areas, would like to stay away from that as best as we can.

So, based upon this, can you help with an itinerary? annie

nytraveler

A lot of towns in Alsace - including Strasbourg - have pedestrian centers - although you may be able to get in with a cab. For several of the towns on the wine road you park outside the town walls and walk in.

I would do a lot of checking on this before you finish the itinerary - unless you want to get a foldable wheel chair for your father.

StuDudley

>-Traveling w/ elderly parents, my father uses a walker, so this presents its own limitations (such as no pedestrian only towns).<<

I don't quite understand this - why can't the town be "pedestiran only" - which many of them are?

Have you inquired about getting a handicapped placard for your car?? I've seen lots & lots of elderly people in these small pedestrian only villages with walkers. I "assume" you can drive him right up to the entrance of the village, let him out, and then meet him later after the car is parked. Except for Strasbourg, all the Alsacian towns are quite small & you can get reaaly close to the entrance of town. Even in Colmar, there is a large parking lot adjacent to the pedestrian only section.

Stu Dudley

sweetannie

My father can only walk short distances. As long as we can drive him to the hotel door, we're fine. If it means parking, then walking more than a very short distance, then that's a problem. He's quite gracious about encouraging us travel about when he's not able to join in.

I realize it's not ideal, but he has traveled the world extensively for 60+ years, and he's not about to stop. In fact, they just got back from Argentina. We've made it through the Dordogne, Loire, Italy, and Provence, we'll surely get through Alsace. I was hoping to base ourselves in Obernai.

Any suggestions are most appreciated.

Thanks so much.

annie

StuDudley

Get another opinion on this, but as I remember Oberni, I recall some hilly sections in town. Kayserburg, Ribeauville and Riquewihr are flat. The latter town is quite small & compact, so he can get very close to where you might want to wander. Good restaurants there too.

Stu Dudley

sweetannie

Stu, thanks, your suggestions have helped us through many a trip. If you were to take a driving trip starting and ending in Zurich, and including Alsace, where would you spend the rest of the time (presuming physical limitations were not part of the issue)? I'd just like to know what you really liked (or not)? annie

DalaiLlama

Google the following names and use the websites provided:

Zurich - Stein am Rhein (most picturesque old town, http://tinyurl.com/2ufu9o) - nearby Rheinfall (www.rheinfall.com/index-e.html and http://tompgalvin.com/places/ch/rheinfall.htm) - then drive via Schaffhausen on the border into Germany towards Black Forest region (www.schwarzwald.de/en and www.blackforest-tourism.com) - Titisee (Lake Titi) / Neustadt, then head due west to the Alsace region.

See if the chapel Notre Dame du Haut in Ronchamp, by famous architect Le Corbusier, attracts you. Lots about it on youtube and flickr and, of course, google etc.

Return via Basel, see if you can do a boat excursion on the Rhein from Basel to Rheinfelden and back, then if you have time for a detour before heading to Zürich, head into the Jura mountains instead, to Le Locle and visit a watch factory, or maybe in nearby La Chaux-de-Fonds.

StuDudley

annie

I'm off to the grocery store to get stuff for T-Day, then I have to spend a couple of hours on some prep work. Then I'll suggest an itinerary for you.

It would help me if you gave me some answers to these questions.

1. What day of the week and at what time of day do your arrive in Zurich?

2. Same for departing.

3. We never drive more than about 2 hrs on arrival day. One poster on Fodors planned to arrive in Paris, and drive to Italy that first day. What are your preferences?

4. Some people like to move around quite a but - 1 day in a hotel, then 2 days in another, then 1 day in another, 2 days in another. What is your preference - remembering that you can often visit more places & see more if you move around, but you'll need to be efficient on checking in & out of hotels and "mustering" the entorage.

5. Any "must sees" besides Alsace.

6. IMO, Switzerland is about the Alps - not about the cities, although there are a few interesting ones. I think you'll find the cutest ones in Alsace, however. Do you mainly want to explore the Alps in Switzerland, or the lakes & cities (won't have time for "All the above" )

7. Any maximum number of hours in a car that you want to spend in a day. We like about 3 as a max. My FIL goes to sleep after 1 hr in the car.

We spent about 6 days in Switzerland this year - so my experience & research is still fresh.

I'll attach my Alsace "write-up" to another post.

Stu Dudley

StuDudley

Alsace
Alsace is one of the most beautiful places in France. In fact, the “Wine Spectator” ran a large expose on Alsace about 8 years ago and called it the most beautiful wine growing region in the world. I would probably include the Mosel in this category, but Alsace has gobbled up more of my film per square mile than almost anywhere else in France (we spend 2 months every year in France). It’s kinda like Vermont with vineyards – dozens of picture postcard villages with church steeples sticking up above the houses, surrounded by vineyards, and backdropped by the Vosges mountains. There is also the very pretty town of Colmar, which I would have to rank in the top 5% of all the medium sized towns I’ve visited in France (perhaps #1 even), Strasbourg is one of my favorite large towns in France. We spent a week in a lovely Gite near Riquewihr last year and we’ve visited Alsace on 3 other occasions for a duration of 3-5 days on each visit. If I have any complaint about Alsace, it’s that there is not as much variety to the sites, villages, and countryside as I’ve seen in other areas of France. The villages in Alsace are almost too pretty to be real, but there are a lot of similarities to them. The Vosges are nice, but nothing like the Alps, Pyrenees, or the Cevannes. I would go there in early September, so that the geraniums that are everywhere will be in full bloom. One time we were there the last week of August, and we had no problems with crowds (I hate crowds).

We’re lucky enough to dine in France at least 30 times per year. We found the restaurants in Alsace to be excellent, in most cases. It’s very easy to avoid the pork & kraut, if that’s not your style. If you look at the red Michelin guide, there are more starred restaurants in Alsace than anywhere else in France (except Paris).

If you are starting your trip in Paris, I would recommend that you take the train from Paris Est to Nancy and visit this lovely city. It’s the center of “Beaux Arts”, and the city architecture & the Place Stanislas are spectacular – especially the golden gates around the square. Take the walking tour outlined in the Green Michelin guide for Alsace. Also visit the Musee des Beaux-Arts, if you’re interested in this style. We actually visited Nancy as a day trip by train from Colmar. We had lunch at the Excelsior Flo, which is truly a sight to behold (see the picture in the Green Michelin guide). There are about 6 direct trains from Paris to Nancy daily, and the trip is about 3 hrs or less. There are about 9 direct trains from Nancy to Strasbourg daily and I suspect that most go on to Colmar too (trip is less than 1 ½ hrs). You could stay overnight in Nancy, or even just make it a ½ day stopover, if you can find a way to stow your luggage.

If you stop or stay in Nancy and then go on to Strasbourg and stay there, you perhaps might be getting “a little too much big city”. It would be more efficient that you start your “Alsace central” visit in Strasbourg, but it might be best to stay somewhere in a small village in the countryside and visit Strasbourg as day trips. There are several trains departing from both Colmar & Ribeauville to Strasbourg. If you decide not to start in Strasbourg, I would take the train to Colmar and pick up a rental car there. Colmar is an easy town to get in & out of (Strasbourg is a little more difficult).

If you overnight in Strasbourg, we’ve stayed at the Gutenberg twice, and loved it. It’s small, centrally located, and not that expensive. It’s difficult to park nearby, however, since it’s on the fringe of the “pedestrian only” section. Take the walking tours described in the Michelin guide. I previously said I’m not a pork fan, but we dined at Chez Yvonne twice and enjoyed it. It’s a very popular brasserie serving traditional Alsace food in a rustic décor – reserve ahead. We’ve also dined at Maison Kammerzell, which is more upscale and located in one of the most beautiful buildings in Strasbourg. It was a Michelin 1 star, and the food was OK (we’ve had much better meals at other restaurants), but the main draw at this place is the décor.

The charm of Alsace is the countryside & cute villages. We’ve stayed in Oberni, Kayserberg twice, and in a Gite near Riquewihr. I would recommend that you stay in the Kayserberg/Riquewihr/Ribbeauville area & take day trips from there. These villages are very close together & the area around the villages is stunning. The Route du Vin is a good road to use to visit all the villages, but it gets a lot of heavy truck traffic & there’s a little too much not-so-scenic commerce on it. There is a prettier and less traveled road that goes from village to village just west of the Route du Vin. It’s actually a very well marked bike route that is much more scenic than the Route du Vin. It probably doesn’t traverse the entire length of the Route du Vin, though. There are a lot of signposts along this route that indicate the direction to the next town, distances, etc. The best way to find this route is to go to Riquewihr & walk or drive around the perimeter of town until you find one of these signposts – it’s actually quite easy to find this route.

Villages not to miss are Oberni, Ribeauville, Riquewihr, Kayserberg, and Eguisheim. There are ramparts around Bergheim and its fun to walk on the top of them & circle the village, looking down into everyone’s back yard. There is a very nice lookout in the town of Zellenberg. Go up into the village & try to find it. There is a viewing table there that’s a little hard to locate, but worth the effort. There is also a very scenic lookout in a cemetery just outside of Sigolsheim – it’s marked on the Michelin map. Hike up to the old Chateau above Kayserberg in the early AM or late PM to get some wonderful views. Visit Haut Koenigsbourg. We really enjoyed the Ecomusee d’Alsace, although I’m usually not a fan of this “Williamsburg” type of stuff. It’s a collection of old houses that gives an insight into housing in the different periods & rural areas of Alsace. There are a lot of storks nesting on the roofs of the buildings in this Ecomusee. The Beauville linens factory & 2nds store is just west of Ribeauville on the road to Ste Marie aux Mines, but expect no bargains.

As I said earlier, Colmar is a gem. Follow the walking route indicated in the Michelin green guide & take plenty of film with you. My wife purchased some wonderful lace in this town. We enjoyed the Musee d’Unterlinden. Spend a ½ day at least in Colmar. It’s easy to drive in & out & parking is no hassle. Stores may be closed on Sunday and Monday.

Here’s a pretty drive through some villages, and then into the Vosges. Head south of Colmar going through the villages of Eguisheim (spend several hours in this village – one of our favorites), Husseren, Hattstat, Gueberschwihr, Rouffach, Westhalten, Bergholtz, and then Guebwiller (visit). Then drive to Murbach to see a nice church in a pretty setting. Take the D430 west through Lautenbach and further until it hits the D27. Take the D27 north over the Col du Platzerwasel toward Munster. Continue on to Munster (D27 changes to D10). Stop & wander around in Munster (of cheese fame). Continue on the D10 to Turckheim (visit).

A farther away trip:
Visit Wissembourg and take the walking tour described in the Michelin Green guide. Then follow drive #3 described in the VOSGES DU NORD section of the Michelin guide. This will take you to Chateau de Fleckenstein, Lembach, Hunspach, & Seebach. In these latter two villages, the houses are half-timbered & painted white – it’s quite a contrast from other villages in Alsace. If you want to see how France attempted to defend itself from the Germans and Russsians after WWI, visit a section of the Maginot line at Four-a-Chaux just outside of Lembach. We enjoyed the tour of underground fortifications, hospitals, barracks, etc.

An excellent way to get back to the CDG airport in Paris for your return home is to stay in Dijon the night before. You can take the early TGV to CDG, which leaves Dijon at 7:47 & gets you into the airport at 9:35 (Sunday schedules might be a little different). We drove from Alsace to Dijon (an easy all-freeway drive), and dropped our car off at the train station and walked across the street and checked into the Hotel Jura. Dijon is a beautiful city. We were there on a Saturday AM and we immediately went to the outdoor market next to the “Les Halles” permanent indoor market. Lots of foodstuff, brocante, etc. The “Les Halles” market is one of the largest I’ve seen. Dijon is a very lively town – especially on a Saturday. Take the walking tour described in the Green Michelin Guide (you’ll have to buy or borrow the green guide for Burgundy Jura). We dined at Pre aux Clercs which was a 1 star and also got raves from Patricia Wells. It was good, but about twice the price as places in Alsace. This year it lost its star.

Restaurants.
Maximilien at the base of Zellenberg was our favorite. The ambience was very relaxed (we had to talk in a whisper) and the setting was lovely. This is a Michelin 1 star restaurant and the food was supurb. Auberge du Schoenbourg in Riquewihr was also excellent. It is a Michlein 1 star. We did not like Table du Gourmet, also in Riquewihr (also a 1 star). I had a very sloppy presentation of overcooked Sandre on a bed of scalloped potatoes (very unimaginative). My wife’s dish also did not please her. We dined at Auberge de Norbert in Bergheim, which was excellent. In Colmar, we dined at the Maison des Tetes, which is one of the most photographed buildings in the City. Our dinner was only so-so and the service was painfully slow (we usually we usually spend 2 1/2 hrs on dinner).

Stu Dudley

NanBug

I think NYTraveler's idea of a folding wheelchair is excellent.

How would your dad feel about getting wheeled around?

That sounds much easier to me than scouting around for drop off points, parking the car, picking him up, etc etc.

sweetannie

Stu, thanks, you're too kind.

We will be arriving on a Friday in the morning and departing on a Thursday mid-morning.

I'm OK with driving about 2 hours the first day.

I'd like to stay at least 2, preferably 3 nights per place (not including the last one night in Zurich). Perhaps 4 nights in Alsace.

Other than Alsace, I know I'd like to see pretty scenery in Switzerland. Weather permitting, I think we'd rather see the Alps than the lakes and cities. The Black Forest came up as a scenic way to get to France.

3 or 4 hours driving a day sounds about right.

Thanks so much for your help, any other suggestions from you or anyone else most welcome.

annie

traveller1959

First: Take a folding wheelchair!!! European towns require lots of walking on rugged surfaces. Expect long walks from the nearest car park to the attractions. It is quite different from the U.S.

Second: What about this itinerary?

Day 1: Zürich
2: Zürich
3: drive to Luzern (most charming town in Switzerland, Alps)
4: Luzern (scenic boat trip, cablecar ride up the mountains)
5: Luzern
6: drive to Berner Oberland (Alps)
7: Berner Oberland
8: Berner Oberland
9: drive to Alsace (3 to 4 hours)
10: Alsace
11: Alsace
12: Alsace
13: drive to Zürich
14: Zürich

You can skip one day in Switzerland and add the day for Alsace. Berner Oberland is right in the mountains; therefore, it might be better to drive through and not to stay there too long.

In Alsace, Obernai would be a good place to stay. Obernai IS flat.

Other charming towns are Eguisheim, Riquewihr (however touristy), Turckheim, Kaysersberg.

StuDudley

OK – here’s my recommendation. I have you starting out in Alsace first, then back to Switzerland. If you believe in “averages”, you want to visit the Alps as late as possible so the weather might be better.

I am not a big fan of the Black Forrest – so I would pass through there as fast as possible, or avoid it. Also, we spent 2 weeks near the French/Swiss border this year, plus another week in Switzerland. I considered visiting Basel, but based on what I read in tour books, and from posts here on Fodors, I decided to not visit Basel. My conclusion (second hand, however) is that Basel is not as interesting as other towns in Europe and that it was not even as nice as several other large cities in Switzerland. There are a large number of museums there, and the proponents on Basel sited them as the main reason for visiting. You will drive right past Basel on my suggested itinerary.

Here it goes:

Friday – arrive in Zurich. Pick up car & drive to Rheinfalls (about 45 mins) & visit. Then visit Schaffhauen (if time & energy level allows). Stay in Stein em Rhein. Stein is 50 mins from the airport if you want to go there first. This is a very cute town.

Saturday – Head to Colmar in Alsace – which is 2 ½ hrs away. Visit Colmar & Eguisheim. Stay in Oberni or Riquewihr (latter will reduce driving when you leave Alsace).

Sun – Visit Riquewihr (if you are not staying there), Kayserberg, & Ribeauville. Read my Alsace itinerary for driving between these villages & avoiding the crowded/unscenic Route du Vin. Note – do not visit Colmar or Strasbourg on Sunday or Monday morning when many shops close.

Monday – visit Haut Koenigbourg (check opening days), Barr, & Oberni (if you are not staying there).

Tuesday – visit other villages & sites. Perhaps Strasbourg, if you are getting tired of cute small villages. See my Alsace itinerary for more suggestions.

Wednesday – leave Alsace & head to Solothurn (1 ½ hrs). Visit & have lunch. Head to Gstaad (2 hrs). As you pass Thun and then take the scenic route 11 to Gstaad – check the weather up on Stockhorn, and if it is “perfect”, take the lift up for great views (a little expensive). We visited Gstaad this year in July & though it would be filled up with the rich/famous/glamorous. It wasn’t & it’s a charming village. Explore Gstaad & surrounds.

Thursday – explore the very scenic area. Drive the loop south to Gsteig, Col du Pillon, les Diablarets. When this road hits the route 11, take the 11 east to Saanen (visit) and back to Gstaad. As you pass the Col du Pillon, check the weather up on Sex Rouge (really – that’s the name) and take the lift up for a view. Dad may be able to make it – there is a nice “lounge” up on top where he can relax & not have to climb. We were there this year & we could see the Matterhorn, Mt Blanc, and the Junfrau. 30 mins later we could not see any of these because of the clouds covering these peaks. 1 hr later, the Sex Rouge platform itself was shrouded in clouds & we could not see 50 feet. This is a spectacular (and expensive) viewpoint. When we were “casing” the various lifts for views this year, the weather always seem to be better in the early morning. When we went up Sex Rouge, we took the very first lift of the day.

Friday – leave Gstaad & head back past Stockhorn & towards the Interlaken/Junfrau region (short drive). Check Stockhorn’s weather again. Past Stockhorn and after you hit the freeway around Thuner See (lake), take the extremely scenic road to Kandersteg and back. Kandersteg is a pretty town to visit too. Then on towards the Junfrau region. I would stay in Lauterbrunnen or Grindelwald. Last time we were there, we stayed in Murren & I was glad we stayed there instead of Wengen or Grindelwald - but Murren or Wengen won’t work for your dad.

Saturday – explore the Junfrau region by car, train, cog railway, gondola, etc.

Sunday – Continue exploring the Junfrau

Monday – head to Lucerne. & stay there. Take a trip up the Rigi or Pilatus (check weather conditions on top first). Dad might like a boat trip (we’ve never done this)

Tuesday – Explore Lucerne area more. Note – do not visit Lucerne on a Sat afternoon or Sunday when most shops are closed.

Wednesday - Drive to Zurich & stay overnight

Thurs – depart.

Stu Dudley

sweetannie

Stu, thank you so much for your ideas, they're so helpful. I will discuss them with Dad tomorrow. Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family. I recall that you you live close by my dear aunt in Hillsborough. Cheers, annie

StuDudley

>>I recall that you you live close by my dear aunt in Hillsborough.>>

Yep - we live about 2 blocks away -in San Mateo Park.

Stu Dudley