Help with 3 week Europe Itinerary
Dec 21st, 2015, 10:24 AM
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Help with 3 week Europe Itinerary
Hi, I'm planning my second Europe trip for May 2016 and I'm stuck on choosing to keep my current itinerary or cut out some places out. Last time I took the frequent advice not to pack too much in one trip and did 5 days each in Barcelona, Paris, & Rome. We were ready to move on by day 3 of each place but couldn't because I had already booked planes and hostels.
This time I would like to do 2 days each London, Paris, Amsterdam all by train. Then move on to Gimmelwald, Switzerland for 2 or 3 days train to Venice, Florence, Pisa and then Rome. 5 days total. Next fly to Athens for a day then ferry to Mykonons for 3 days. Get back to London and fly home. It sounds crazy but is it doable? Which would you take out? I was thinking maybe Switzerland to Rome instead to give me more time in other places. I don't plan on being able to do another trip like this again so trying to get as much as I can in of places I've always wanted to visit. Dates are May 20-June 9. Thank you.
This time I would like to do 2 days each London, Paris, Amsterdam all by train. Then move on to Gimmelwald, Switzerland for 2 or 3 days train to Venice, Florence, Pisa and then Rome. 5 days total. Next fly to Athens for a day then ferry to Mykonons for 3 days. Get back to London and fly home. It sounds crazy but is it doable? Which would you take out? I was thinking maybe Switzerland to Rome instead to give me more time in other places. I don't plan on being able to do another trip like this again so trying to get as much as I can in of places I've always wanted to visit. Dates are May 20-June 9. Thank you.
Dec 21st, 2015, 11:36 AM
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If you can do Switzerland later it will be better in the Jungfrau Region where in mid-May mountain conveyances may be down for maintenance in an off season but by June back up and weather warmer - Gimmelwald is at high altitude and may still be very cold - consider a lower altitude base like Grindelwald - great for young folks as it's the liveliest town in the area - Gimmelwald is very isolated and totally dead except for cows coming home perhaps.
Anyway for lots of great info on trains check these IMO informative sources: www.ricksteves.com; www.budgeteuropetravel.com and www.seat61.com.
It don't take much travel in Switzerland to merit a good look at a Swiss Pass - especially if staying in Gimmelwald where the expensive cable car up there is fully covered by a Swiss Pass.
www.swisstravelsystem.comhas lots of great info on Swiss trains, including the iconic specialty scenic trains you may want to ride- a good way though novel and taking a day longer way to go between Switzerland and Italy is via the Bernina Express Railway - St Moritz to Tirano, Italy and to me the most gorgeously scenic train in Europe - use it to go to Lake Como and Milan and on from there.
Anyway for lots of great info on trains check these IMO informative sources: www.ricksteves.com; www.budgeteuropetravel.com and www.seat61.com.
It don't take much travel in Switzerland to merit a good look at a Swiss Pass - especially if staying in Gimmelwald where the expensive cable car up there is fully covered by a Swiss Pass.
www.swisstravelsystem.comhas lots of great info on Swiss trains, including the iconic specialty scenic trains you may want to ride- a good way though novel and taking a day longer way to go between Switzerland and Italy is via the Bernina Express Railway - St Moritz to Tirano, Italy and to me the most gorgeously scenic train in Europe - use it to go to Lake Como and Milan and on from there.
Dec 21st, 2015, 11:41 AM
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https://westbahn.at/en
Westbahn official site - can and should book in advance not to save money but to have everything taken care of - think it is an open ticket that can be used on any train but you may want to make a reservation as those trains, with cheap walk up prices, can be rather crowded I would suspect.
Westbahn official site - can and should book in advance not to save money but to have everything taken care of - think it is an open ticket that can be used on any train but you may want to make a reservation as those trains, with cheap walk up prices, can be rather crowded I would suspect.
Dec 21st, 2015, 11:54 AM
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On your last trip, did you have 5 full days in each place (6 nights) or 5 nights in each place (4 nights)? I ask because I want a better sense of the pace of your previous trip and also because I wonder what you mean by your plan for two days in each city. Is it two nights (1full day) or three nights (two full days)?
Be aware that the places you have listed are to equal in terms of things to see and do. London is by far the largest city both in terms of area and in terms of things to do/see. Contrast that with Pisa and you'll see what I mean.
We all travel differently, but do consider how exhausting this trip would be. If you arrive in London on May 20 and fly out of London on June 9, you probably can't count those days as sightseeing days. So count how many full days you have on the ground, then consider that it takes at least half a day for transit from one place to another (not just train/flight times, but from checking our of one hotel until being checked in to the next). Consider the balance of transit day with days where you stay in a city and see/do what you came for. Personally, this would be way too many transit days for me.
Take a good look at your guidebooks and decide what are the must see/do things for you in each place. How much time will it take to see/do those things? If I knew I wasn't going to be back for a while, I would want to make sure I had spent enough time at the places most important to me rather than seeing the maximum number of countries/cities. But choose on the basis of what is important to you.
Be aware that the places you have listed are to equal in terms of things to see and do. London is by far the largest city both in terms of area and in terms of things to do/see. Contrast that with Pisa and you'll see what I mean.
We all travel differently, but do consider how exhausting this trip would be. If you arrive in London on May 20 and fly out of London on June 9, you probably can't count those days as sightseeing days. So count how many full days you have on the ground, then consider that it takes at least half a day for transit from one place to another (not just train/flight times, but from checking our of one hotel until being checked in to the next). Consider the balance of transit day with days where you stay in a city and see/do what you came for. Personally, this would be way too many transit days for me.
Take a good look at your guidebooks and decide what are the must see/do things for you in each place. How much time will it take to see/do those things? If I knew I wasn't going to be back for a while, I would want to make sure I had spent enough time at the places most important to me rather than seeing the maximum number of countries/cities. But choose on the basis of what is important to you.
Dec 21st, 2015, 12:09 PM
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Please ignore my Westbahn post - ended up in a wrong thread - not of interest to you.
I too after 3 days am ready to move on - the mantra here is 5 days at least which you followed and regretted - 2 days in a large city like Rome however is about a day too short IME - so many things to see. But for a Florence or Venice two days suits many folks just right - even figuring in it's really a day and a half with transport figured in.
I too after 3 days am ready to move on - the mantra here is 5 days at least which you followed and regretted - 2 days in a large city like Rome however is about a day too short IME - so many things to see. But for a Florence or Venice two days suits many folks just right - even figuring in it's really a day and a half with transport figured in.
Dec 21st, 2015, 12:43 PM
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Can't imagine being done with those places in 3 days - but obviously you like to move very quickly just hitting a few high spots.
But I think you still need to consider
1) the size of the places you are going (London has 3 times the pop and size of those places and dozens upon dozens of major sights - so I would do 4 nights to get 3.5 days there)
2) how long it will take to get from one place to another (before you finalize the itinerary get actual train and plane schedules so you can see how few days - or hours - you will have in some places
You last trip was only 2 moves (2 days out of 15). Your proposed itinerary is 11 moves from one place to another - you have to allow some time for that (probably 7 days at least out of 20).
But I think you still need to consider
1) the size of the places you are going (London has 3 times the pop and size of those places and dozens upon dozens of major sights - so I would do 4 nights to get 3.5 days there)
2) how long it will take to get from one place to another (before you finalize the itinerary get actual train and plane schedules so you can see how few days - or hours - you will have in some places
You last trip was only 2 moves (2 days out of 15). Your proposed itinerary is 11 moves from one place to another - you have to allow some time for that (probably 7 days at least out of 20).
Dec 21st, 2015, 01:20 PM
#7
I can't even get my head around 'doing' London in 2 days. Pisa -- half a day is fine (and then only if one must).
But two days in London will let you see 3 or 4 major sites - max. Out of the 15 or 20 really major sites, which 15 or so do you want to skip?
But two days in London will let you see 3 or 4 major sites - max. Out of the 15 or 20 really major sites, which 15 or so do you want to skip?
Dec 21st, 2015, 01:41 PM
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>> Last time I took the frequent advice not to pack too much in one trip and did 5 days each in Barcelona, Paris, & Rome. We were ready to move on by day 3 of each place.......
This time I would like to do 2 days each London, Paris, ..... and then Rome<<
If you were ready to leave Paris & Rome after 3 days - why are you then returning to Paris & Rome? To see what you missed on your prior trip???
Stu Dudley
This time I would like to do 2 days each London, Paris, ..... and then Rome<<
If you were ready to leave Paris & Rome after 3 days - why are you then returning to Paris & Rome? To see what you missed on your prior trip???
Stu Dudley
Dec 21st, 2015, 01:45 PM
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A 15 day trip with only three destinations is a totally different animal than a 20 day trip with 10 destinations. I can see how some people want to experience a lot of places, and get bored after less time than other people, so your urge to pack in a lot is understandable. But maybe cut the difference between your first trip and this one you are proposing.
One technique if you feel you might have too long in one place is to plan day trips. Things you can either do or not do once you get there and decide if you are 'done' with a place. For example there are tons of great day trips from London (Oxford, Cambridge, Stratford, Warwick, Dover, Bath, etc. etc.) so plan at least 3 or 4 days there and if you are 'done' with London after two then go on day trips the other days, but you don't have to commit to them in advance since you wouldn't move hotels. There are lots of great little towns you can do as day trips from Amsterdam as well.
Why are you going back to Paris and Rome if you have already been there and were ready to move on even before you did? Those would be two obvious places to cut.
How about 5 nights London (which is only 4 days), train to Amsterdam for 3 nights, fly to Venice for 2 nights, train to Florence for 3 nights ( do Pisa as a day trip), fly to Athens for 2 nights, ferry to an island (why Mykonos) for a few days and back to Athens then fly home from there. Still way to packed for most people but less crazy (your word) than what you have now.
One technique if you feel you might have too long in one place is to plan day trips. Things you can either do or not do once you get there and decide if you are 'done' with a place. For example there are tons of great day trips from London (Oxford, Cambridge, Stratford, Warwick, Dover, Bath, etc. etc.) so plan at least 3 or 4 days there and if you are 'done' with London after two then go on day trips the other days, but you don't have to commit to them in advance since you wouldn't move hotels. There are lots of great little towns you can do as day trips from Amsterdam as well.
Why are you going back to Paris and Rome if you have already been there and were ready to move on even before you did? Those would be two obvious places to cut.
How about 5 nights London (which is only 4 days), train to Amsterdam for 3 nights, fly to Venice for 2 nights, train to Florence for 3 nights ( do Pisa as a day trip), fly to Athens for 2 nights, ferry to an island (why Mykonos) for a few days and back to Athens then fly home from there. Still way to packed for most people but less crazy (your word) than what you have now.
Dec 21st, 2015, 03:16 PM
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isabel's idea of day trips and examples is a brilliant thing to consider - don't sit bored in a city you booked for 5 days, "to just be able to touch the tip of the iceberg" mantra, yes take delectable day trips to smaller cities many tourists never get too - spending all their times in big cities seeing every possible site - in many ways the smaller places are much more typical of that country - like day tripping from Paris to Chartres for the world-famous cathedral and sweet lively regional town with a thronged pedestrian main shopping street - same stores in many cases as in Paris.
Anyway isabel has given sage advice - still book 5 days in London and perhaps day trip to some of plethora of neat places she mentions - again seeing a more real side of England than tourist-infested cosmopolitan central London!
Anyway isabel has given sage advice - still book 5 days in London and perhaps day trip to some of plethora of neat places she mentions - again seeing a more real side of England than tourist-infested cosmopolitan central London!
Dec 21st, 2015, 03:33 PM
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I think you want to be somewhere in between the 2 and 5 days in some of the major cities. 2 simply isn't enough. I think this trip is a little rushed, but this can be fixed by removing Paris and Rome, where you've already been. I would suggest tacking on an extra day to each London and Amsterdam (at the expense of Paris). For the Italy leg, you can get by with 4 days (1.5 Venice, 2 Florence, 0.5 Pisa - fly out of Pisa). That buys you an extra day for Athens or London. The rest looks fast-paced, but reasonable.
Dec 21st, 2015, 04:37 PM
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Have to agree about Switzerland. May is a bit early for alpine villages, unfortunately. Had your trip departed instead of finished on June 9, I'd have a different answer.
We like moving around on our trips too, but we always make room for the 'what-ifs' - trains and planes can be delayed, for example. And frankly, having ridden on many a ferry, I would not be keen to do a 6 hour ferry run Mykonos-Athens at the near end of my trip, just before attempting to connect with a flight home. Or even a faster high-speed ferry - I have had bad luck with all kinds of ferries, they always seem to suffer mechanical failure on the day I want to sail. Anyway, that part sounds like way too much pressure, because whereas a missed connection nearly always means expense, when that missed connection is to a transatlantic flight, it gets very, very expensive. No, the airline won't be 'understanding.'
I'd stick something like Athens/Mykonos in the middle of my itinerary so that if something went awry, I'd have a chance to catch up.
We like moving around on our trips too, but we always make room for the 'what-ifs' - trains and planes can be delayed, for example. And frankly, having ridden on many a ferry, I would not be keen to do a 6 hour ferry run Mykonos-Athens at the near end of my trip, just before attempting to connect with a flight home. Or even a faster high-speed ferry - I have had bad luck with all kinds of ferries, they always seem to suffer mechanical failure on the day I want to sail. Anyway, that part sounds like way too much pressure, because whereas a missed connection nearly always means expense, when that missed connection is to a transatlantic flight, it gets very, very expensive. No, the airline won't be 'understanding.'
I'd stick something like Athens/Mykonos in the middle of my itinerary so that if something went awry, I'd have a chance to catch up.
Dec 21st, 2015, 04:39 PM
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<i> Help with 3 week Europe Itinerary
Posted by: jmoral1225 on Dec 21, 15 at 2:24pm
Posted in: Europe
Tagged: France , Greece , Italy , Netherlands , Switzerland , United Kingdom </i>
<i>It sounds crazy but is it doable?</i>
You will spend half of your time in transit. This is nuts, unless you are in the "Amazing Race" and hoping to win some big bucks.
Posted by: jmoral1225 on Dec 21, 15 at 2:24pm
Posted in: Europe
Tagged: France , Greece , Italy , Netherlands , Switzerland , United Kingdom </i>
<i>It sounds crazy but is it doable?</i>
You will spend half of your time in transit. This is nuts, unless you are in the "Amazing Race" and hoping to win some big bucks.
Dec 22nd, 2015, 01:31 AM
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If you end up keeping a Greek island in your itinerary check out the possibility of flying directly to the island from Italy. In the nice-weather season -- sometimes as early as May -- it is possible to get a cheap flight from airports in Italy (like Pisa or Verona, but also the major cities) to a Greek island, maybe even Mykonos. There may also be non-stop flights to Greek islands from other countries you intend to visit.
I think May is bit early for reliably clear weather to enjoy the majesty of the scenery, so I would eliminate it were it my trip. Some peope think it is silly to think about likelihood of poor weather spoiling your trip ("Hey, who knows when it will rain anywhere?") but when planning an expensive trip to Switzerland or London, I don't.
Regarding your overall question, looks to me like you might end up in the same situation as you did before: taking advice from others about how to arrange your trip, and then when you execute the advice, it is unsatisfying to you. (I hate day trips.) Perhaps you need to plan your "days" in greater detail in advance, identifying from guidebooks what you want to see in each stop, calculating the hours it will take to complete your agenda, and being clear about how much time it actually takes to get from one place to another based on looking at actual departure and arrival times for trains and flights, how long it takes to get from station to hotel.
If you personally map out your agenda each day for the places you want to visit, and clock it, you'll have a better idea than anybody of whether it looks like a good plan for you.
I think May is bit early for reliably clear weather to enjoy the majesty of the scenery, so I would eliminate it were it my trip. Some peope think it is silly to think about likelihood of poor weather spoiling your trip ("Hey, who knows when it will rain anywhere?") but when planning an expensive trip to Switzerland or London, I don't.
Regarding your overall question, looks to me like you might end up in the same situation as you did before: taking advice from others about how to arrange your trip, and then when you execute the advice, it is unsatisfying to you. (I hate day trips.) Perhaps you need to plan your "days" in greater detail in advance, identifying from guidebooks what you want to see in each stop, calculating the hours it will take to complete your agenda, and being clear about how much time it actually takes to get from one place to another based on looking at actual departure and arrival times for trains and flights, how long it takes to get from station to hotel.
If you personally map out your agenda each day for the places you want to visit, and clock it, you'll have a better idea than anybody of whether it looks like a good plan for you.
Dec 22nd, 2015, 12:07 PM
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Especially places like Gimmelwald at high altitude - average hi in May would be I think around 0 C - freezing - not that great for hiking and snow could block the trails. June would be much better with many more lifts running too and hotels open than May.
Dec 22nd, 2015, 02:08 PM
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"If you were ready to leave Paris & Rome after 3 days - why are you then returning to Paris & Rome? To see what you missed on your prior trip???"
Suppose you really liked the Orsay museum, had a memorable meal (or have been told by friends about a restaurant you wished you had gone to), enjoyed the view from the Eiffel tower. I can see someone wanting to repeat a few experiences & maybe get a few new ones in a city they've already visited.
Might not be everyone's cup of tea, but I trust the OP's instincts. If they were bored after 3 days and were stuck for 5, no sense repeating that. Given the mention of hostels I'm going to guess the OP is on the younger side. So lots of trips ahead in the years to come. They tried one with longer stays. I say go ahead and try this fast-paced one to see what they think. Maybe it turns out perfect, maybe its another sample in calibrating their travel experiences.
Suppose you really liked the Orsay museum, had a memorable meal (or have been told by friends about a restaurant you wished you had gone to), enjoyed the view from the Eiffel tower. I can see someone wanting to repeat a few experiences & maybe get a few new ones in a city they've already visited.
Might not be everyone's cup of tea, but I trust the OP's instincts. If they were bored after 3 days and were stuck for 5, no sense repeating that. Given the mention of hostels I'm going to guess the OP is on the younger side. So lots of trips ahead in the years to come. They tried one with longer stays. I say go ahead and try this fast-paced one to see what they think. Maybe it turns out perfect, maybe its another sample in calibrating their travel experiences.
Dec 22nd, 2015, 06:23 PM
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Thank you. I read everyone's replies and will consider removing Switzerland due to bad timing. I should have mentioned this is my original post that my sister really enjoyed Paris and wanted to go back as well as another friend who has never been to Europe who would also like to see Paris & Rome. I wanted to fly into London because it's the cheapest to fly into otherwise I would remove it. I know I made the mistake the first time with not doing enough research for things to see so once I can get an itinerary together this will be my next step. I chose Mykonos for the beaches, architecture and "party scene" since my sister and her friend her younger. I originally chose Santorini.
About the day trips, I do find this as a good idea and actually did a day trip to Versailles but these trips can get expensive so we only chose one.
Well I have a lot to think about because I know this is very rushed we just need to chose what's most important to us. Thank you for all of your help.
About the day trips, I do find this as a good idea and actually did a day trip to Versailles but these trips can get expensive so we only chose one.
Well I have a lot to think about because I know this is very rushed we just need to chose what's most important to us. Thank you for all of your help.
Dec 22nd, 2015, 09:47 PM
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The wild party scene you may have on mind is a late July/August thing on Mykonos. You will find plenty of mellow bars around and maybe a few low key party nights here and there, but do not raise your expectations too high.
