Help setting itinerary...which countries, what time of year, how long, etc.
 

My husband and I and two of our dear friends are planning a trip to Europe. There's so much to we want to do and see we are having a hard time deciding. We are in the very early planning stages as we won't be traveling until late 2012 or early 2013 for a 2-3 week stay. Our top 5 countries include Italy, Germany, Ireland, France, and Greece. We've started researching but some guidance as to how much (and how many countries) we can see in our time limits would be appreciated. I'm also wondering when the best time of year is to go as far as weather, cost, and crowded-ness. My personal hangup is feeling like I need to see more than one country if I'm making the trip there. Help!

Well, I'll start off with some basic guidelines that help me.

For 2-3 weeks, I'd choose 2-3 countries at the most. You have to consider that you'll lose at least 1/2 day changing locations/countries/cities including travel, in/out hotels, etc.

Your country choices are kind of spread apart so it will be tough. But if you're set on those choices, I'd go for flying into Ireland, stay for 5-6 days; fly to France (or Italy), stay for 5-6 days, and then you can probably take a train to Germany. Fly home from Germany. This is not an itinerary yet, just a suggestion of countries.

Just those 3 countries (and we haven't even discussed which cities in each of those) would take up most of your 2-3 week vacation.

If you were only doing 2 weeks, I'd cut it down to 2 countries esp if one of them was Ireland. If you stayed on the continent and chose. say, France, Italy and Germany, it would be tight but you could possibly have 3-4 days in each country, if you chose only one city to sleep in each country and maybe did day trips. But I wouldn't plan on moving around too much.

Personally, I need 3-4 nights per city, otherwise it gets crazy. I have done one and two-nighters and I just don't care for that pace anymore. Sometimes it's necessary and it does work out, but you wouldn't want your whole trip like that.

I'd leave Greece out of this itinerary unless you just did: say Italy and Greece. You'd fly into Italy and home from Greece.

OK, that's a very quick overview. I am sure many others will chime in here.

Mostly, it would be helpful if you looked at a map and saw the distance between the countries. I say this in the kindest way possible. The distances between are large - sometimes we don't realize it. So maybe narrow down your counties and get some books and read, read, read. You are very smart to plan way ahead and think about what you want.

Good luck!

BTW: I love Europe in Fall or early spring. For me it's the best weather, not too crowded. Prices are decent.

Two to three weeks is a relatively short time, and you could go to one country and only scratch the surface. Think about locations rather than countries, and plan your trip accordingly. Were it me, I would limit the trip to two countries that are close together, e.g. Germany and France or Italy and Greece.

IMO the best time to travel in Western Europe is June or September. The weather is good, and most European children are in school, so families aren't on vacation. :-)

I disagree- to me May is the best time to go - unless you are determined to do a beach vacation. (And I never understand going to europe for beaches - since they are generally much better in other parts of the world - IMHO one goes to europe for history or culture - not beaches that are rocks or pebbles with flat water - and not what most people go to beaches for.)

As for May - you have very long days, weather that is warm but not very hot, and a limited number of tourists clogging up facilities.

Thank you for all the replies! This gives us a good start to thinking about out itinerary. I had in mind May if we went in the Spring because I wanted good weather but not too hot and crowded so thanks for the comment. I had my heart on Italy and Greece if I had to pick just two mainly because I think we want a mixture of those "hot spots" and "must sees" and some less visited areas. Would anyone suggest a better two countries if we were to only visit two?

I have lived in Europe for many years, and know how unsettled May weather can be. Europe is a large continent, with different weather from north to south, just as in the United States, so it's impossible to generalize on "weather in Europe". Cities in Europe are further north than many Americans realize, BTW, with Rome about the same lattitude as Boston.

In one of the hottest summers on record in England (1976) snow fell on June 1st, while this year May was warm and sunny. I have been on the Greek Islands in mid-May when it was so cold that I needed a jacket <i>and</i> sweater to sit at a sidewalk cafe in the evenings, while other years have been warmer.

Yes, May is a good month to travel in Europe, but June is even better. By then the weather is more settled throughout the continent, and less of a gamble. Most European schools are in session until July (Norway and Sweden exceptions) so families have not yet begun their summer vacations in June. :-)

As a footnote, I travel to Greece once or twice a year, always in June and September. I used to go in May, but prefer guaranteed warm weather. One year, when getting off the ferry on Naxos in May, the hotel owner greeted me with the Greek word κρύο (cold). :-D

I spend half time in Europe and like Heimdale I think June is actually better. I would be inclined to start in mid to late May in Greece and then work my ay up to France and Germany and then fly out from Ireland. If you leave the cooler places like Germany and Ireland to the first 2 weeks of June you may be happier.

If you do decide to come to Ireland then I can advise you further just let me know. My honest opinion is to fly into Cork form the European side and then fly home (Is it to the US?) from Shannon. Shannon is a good place to fly to the US as you do the immigration business on this side instead of when you arrive from the US. There is much less hassle then flying from an English Airport!
Cork airport is very near the City and you could explore the City for a few days then rent a car and travel to Shannon taking in the South West Coast.


And finally yes June is a lovely time to travel to Ireland but towards the end of June, early July is my favourite time and trust me there isnt a tourist problem.

Happy Travelling

<IMHO one goes to europe for history or culture - not beaches that are rocks or pebbles with flat water - and not what most people go to beaches for.)>

Just to put the record straight, jwood - there are many, many beautiful sandy beaches in Europe and beach holidays are very popular with Europeans. Just off the top of my head, some beautiful beaches include Newquay (lots of big waves!) and Bournemouth in the UK - the Costas of Spain - Lido de Jesolo, Italy (near Venice). In fact, the second most beautiful beach I've ever been to (second only to Kailua Beach, Hawaii) is in the far north of Scotland - white sand, from shells and (if the sun's shining!) deep torquoise water - like something in the Caribbean!

I also think you would be best to stick with 2 countries. Italy and France would be my choice - and I would go in June or September. Happy planning!

Thank you all for your suggestions! I am having a tremendously hard time picking where we want to go out of all the possibilities. All the places we want to see in Italy would make a trip of their own--I just always thought a trip to Europe would entail more than one country. But I suppose it doesn't have to. We have started to look at distances between countries which does prove a challenge if we plan to visit the countries on our list. I suppose if we knocked out Ireland and Greece from this trip, it would be easier. What is the best way to travel between countries and cities within the same country? Fly? Train?

I'm not a beach person, but I'm with wildblueyonder. Yes, there are plenty of pebbly beaches (I grew up in England, and believe me, I've seen a bunch), but what do you think people holiday on the Med for? And then there are coastlines that are scenic rather than for sunning - the Amalfi Coast, the Cinque Terre, the Pembroke coast, etc. etc.

I also disagree that June is a better month than May. It depends entirely on where you are. For me, the south of Spain is already too hot in June. I've visited Greece and Italy in April and not been too cold.

jwood -- It comes down to some "musts." Does Ireland have a pull because of family? What are the instinctive attractions of each? History? Religion? Food? Landscapes?

If you don't care about water & swims, May is a terrific time for France & Italy ... If you love being in the water (I don't mean lying on a beach & baking, I mean experiencing the gorgeous Blue Aegean), Greece is Eden. An italy-Greece trip 3 week trip could be Italy for last 10 days of May, Greece for first 10 days of June. In Italy, Do Rome-Florence-Venice, then fly to Athens and do 2 islands & Athens then fly home.

I understand the desire to "see everything," but it's not possible and it would be a pretty crappy trip to try to cram that many countries in two weeks.

Even if you chose a "highlights of France and Italy" trip, it would be hard to do in just 2 weeks. A trip of Paris, Venice, Florence, Rome would need more than 2 weeks imho, and in 3 wks you'd still just be seeing the highlights, but it would be do-able, with some side trips into the country.

So you need to decide how many days you have, and focus on the places that are highest on your own "must see" list. I love Greece, but I would choose France and/or Italy for a first trip.

travelerjan: All 4 of us just have an interest in the beautiful landscapes of Ireland. It's on our top 5 but I'm not sure it's on our top 2-3. It may be our first to cut since it's so much farther from the others. Germany is also on our top 5. Because I have family roots there, I may make that a trip on its own. Though I would really love to go on this trip.

cheryllj: We are between 2 and 3 weeks. Our friends, as of right now, won't be able to take more than 2 weeks off work. My husband and I are wanting to do 3 weeks. We may do the first 2 weeks together as a group of 4 and the last week on our own.

Another question, I've looked at pictures of Switzerland, and it looks amazing! Would anyone do Switzerland/Italy/Greece over France/Italy/Greece? Or just Switzerland/Italy?

jwood, obviously you are just in the wonderful fantasizing stage now ... most peple have advised you to limit yourself to 2 countries ... but YOU are the ones who are going to have to focus, before you ask us to start advising on logistics. Otherwise we'll all be spending time on scenarios that will prove to be irrelevant, and that will be a waste of time both for you and for us. Dream your dreams, then focus, then come back.

And you don't have to see it all at once. Believe it or not, you can go another time. I took one trip to Europe in my 20s, for about 3 weeks. Then not until my 60s. And now they cannot keep me at home. But you don't have to wait that long... so please, bite off a manageable chunk, then come back for 2nd helpings, and 3rds, etc.

Italy and Swiss---that will take a month to scratch the surface.

travelerjan: Yes, you are right! I am definitely dreaming of all the places I want to visit. I was just trying to get a feel for how many places we could see. A lot of tours go to several countries within our time frame but most everyone on here seems to disagree with that approach. So, I guess we'll need to go back to the drawing board and pick a max of two countries then the must see cities within those countries.

Thanks everyone for your advice. I'll be back again when we have more of a definite itinerary to get more advice on the specifics!

You can do two countries but I think you will have a much better experience if you concentrate on only one.

Happy Traveler don't rain on her parade ... this person perhaps is not as fortunate as you, and able to go abroad frequently -- this may be her very first time! And she wants to See and Do. I know how she feels. Two is not overly ambitious; one country is for the traveler who expects to take another 6 or 8 trips to Europe in the foreseeable future.

Yes agree with travelerjan!

Jwood is just trying to figure things out, throwing out ideas here and seeing what sticks. I believe she has been taking this advice to heart and will figure out what works for them on this trip.

No need to stick to only one country in 2-3 weeks if one's desire is more. She can easily combine Italy/Greece for example. Maybe Germany/France.

Jwood - I know the "agony" of trying to choose where to go! You are making progress. You really cannot go wrong with ANY of your choices.

Ok. I have taken the advice of many of you and have now proposed a very preliminary city itinerary to our friends. Here's the general outline:

Rome - 5 days
Florence - 3-4 days (w/ possible days trips to Pisa, through Chianti, and/or Siena)
Venice - 3-4 days
Paris - 5 days (w/ possible day trip to Normandy Beach)

This itinerary is dependent on whether or not our friends can stay for more than two weeks. If not, we'll have to cut a city. Our group definitely wants to spend time in Rome, so that's a must. We have tons of time to plan but wanted to nail down our cities so we can (1) get an idea of cost and (2) start to research and plan the details. Any comments you have, please share. Thank you!

NOw THAT sounds like a very do-able itinerary! I would think about going perhaps in May ... warm but not hot, not too crowdy yet. Plus, the loooong days (more for your money!). I shall never forget in May the early evening in Paris (sorry: name of awful cheap US 'drugstor perfume' of the 1950s) .... the sun doesn't set until 9 or later, and the afterglow -- it's this amazing lavender/blue light. In French it's actually called "l'heur bleu" (which is another parfum, but French, and a better one).

Yes, I'd agree that two countries is ideal for your itinerary.

Now I wonder if anyone can match a two week trip I took in my 20s, driving my Porsche 911? Countries visited in order: UK - France -Andorra - Spain - France (again) - Monaco (for the Grand Prix) - Italy - Austria - Germany - Belgium - UK. :-D :-D

I think that itinerary is very doable. One suggestion is to read some trip reports (there are many, many here for Italy and Paris) - when I'm planning trips, I find that those can give me some good ideas I might not have thought of, and help me figure out how long I'd like to spend in each place (which may not be the same amount of time everyone else would like to spend!).

Heimdall, you really know how to hurt. Young. Wealthy. Porsche owner. Why did we not meet then? And now ... it's all memories and Antiparos. And a 3-speed bicycle.

And me with a VW. ;-)

BTW, a dollar went a long way in those days. I certainly wasn't wealthy, but as a bachelor officer in the USAF, could afford a sports car and a bit of travel. :-)

Aaaah. A uniform. An officer. And with a floppy hat-brim. Swoon.

We just got back from three weeks in france and I still feel like we didn't really get to see that much of this beautiful country. If you want scenery and beautiful places - I would go to france and northern italy, including the Lake districk - loved Lake Como, Lake Garda, and of course Venice. In France, the Loire valley and dordogne are amazing. We went in May this year and had amazing weather....We usually travel this time of the year in europe and have been very lucky with weather. If you want to go to Germany, then you could do Germany, Austria and France. We drove from Germany to Paris and it was an easy drive. Austria and Germany are very beautiful as well. Also went there in late May, early June and it was beautiful. Switzerland - much more expensive. Remember the more distance traveling you do, you take a day away from sightseeing, so unless you are driving, you will miss scenery if you are in airports.

<i>"Ok. I have taken the advice of many of you and have now proposed a very preliminary city itinerary to our friends. Here's the general outline:

Rome - 5 days
Florence - 3-4 days (w/ possible days trips to Pisa, through Chianti, and/or Siena)
Venice - 3-4 days
Paris - 5 days (w/ possible day trip to Normandy Beach)

This itinerary is dependent on whether or not our friends can stay for more than two weeks. If not, we'll have to cut a city. Our group definitely wants to spend time in Rome, so that's a must".</i>

New outline looks great. All 4 destinations are "must" IMHO, but Rome, Venice, and Paris are absolute musts! If you absolutely must cut one, then grit your teeth and cut Florence.

<i>"We have tons of time to plan but wanted to nail down our cities so we can (1) get an idea of cost and (2) start to research and plan the details. Any comments you have, please share. Thank you!"</i>

Yes, you have plenty of time... but I would seriously start looking at accommodations 6-9 months before you leave. While it's true you can always find some place to stay much closer to departing, securing that "one" special apartment on the perfect block, or that "one" flat with a perfect balcony/terrace, or even that "one" special room (number xx) in that one small, well located, hotel with the perfect view often means being the first one to request it.

Your new plan is just about perfect. If you do have to cut, I agree with Bardo1 to cut Florence, or do it as a day trip from Rome if you find you want to do that once you are there. If you have a week longer than your friends, they could depart from Paris and you could spend another week with lots of options: the rest of your time in France, the Netherlands or Belgium, England or Ireland. I would probably choose Provence because it is so different from your other places, gets you away from cities and would not eat up too much travel time. However, neither would England or Belgium. I know you didn't mentioned these, but I would choose them over Ireland: first, because I like them more, and second, because they are logistically easier from Paris with less travel time from place to place once you are there.

The other alternative would be for you to fly into Italy a week ahead and spend a week in Tuscany or on the Amalfi Coast before your friends arrive. I would choose the AC because you could visit Pompeii (and other similar sights), and it is a wonderful place to relax and get your first taste of the most beautiful landscapes you can imagine. IMHO, this would be the most perfect experience you could have on a first trip to Italy, and you could depart from Paris with your friends.

The only problem with this is that your friends could be terribly jealous, especially if they see pictures of Positano. You might have to think about that. If they have traveled much before, they probably would not care. If they haven't, they might want to start out together. The beginning of a trip is always so exciting.

Bardo: We did Rome-Florence-Venice-Paris about 5 years ago. What a fabulous trip! We took the train to Florence and Venice. Flew to Paris Orly from Venice.

Compared to most newbies, you've hit on the practically-perfect itinerary on your first day. That's a big accomplishment!

Ooops, Bardo. That was meant for Jwood. :-]

Our top 5 countries include Italy, Germany, Ireland, France, and Greece>

Of course for 2-3 weeks you must chose as these are in 3 far-removed places and even though you could fly between them I'd settle for say three contiguous countries like Italy, Germany and France (OK not contiguous but almost as tiny Switzerland or a slice of Austria is between Italy and Germany).

You could though open-jaw - into say Dublin - then do a cheap Raynair flight to someplace in France or Germany and go south to Italy - if going mainly to big tourist cities then I'd go by train as cars these days are white elephants in many european cities - either outright banned from city centers or with many areas off-limits - parking can be expensive and hard to find as cities seek to deter vehicles from their already congested city centres. Rome and Florence and of course Venice for example have pretty much banned private vehicles from their historic cores (and many Fodorites post later about getting home and finding they got a ticket when cameras snapped their license plate entering a no-go zone since they did not recongiize the no-go zone sign. so if cities take the modern high-speed rail system between cities - if wanting to visit countryside then rent a car - most tourists however want to visit the cities like Rome, Florence, Paris, etc they have always dreamt about visiting.

anyway for lots of great info on train travel, which I admit I am partial to after riding the rails in Europe for decades now - check out these superb IMO sites - www.seat61.com; www.ricksteves.com; www.budgeteuropetravel.com - check out the latter's online free European Rail & Planning Guide that is a good itinerary planner aid for each country - esp if going by rail. Fodor's and Fodorites are as a group an excellent source of info - amongst the best of any travel forum IMO so ask new questions and be surprised by how many experts there are on a plethora of topics here.

As a practical matter consider the issues of clothing and mixing two distinct climates. Going to say Ireland and Greece implies clothing for cooler, wet weather and clothing for warmer, beach weather. Given the limitations and significant cost of bags that are overweight on intra-Europe flights, you can see the issue.

We in fact did that this past summer. We went to Ireland and Paris. We needed in effect two types of clothes as we intended to visit places in Paris that required a bit more dressed up look that we needed in Ireland. The excess weight fee on Air Lingus was more than the cost of our 4 tickets. (We knew this going in as my wife and daughter are crazy for clothes and shoes.)

Depending on time of year, you might consider a cruise. Not the ideal way for me to see Southern Europe, but for your first trip that could provide a lot for year.

I know there are cruise lines that will go from say Italy or Spain on a "Grand Europe" Tour that will take you to cities along the Baltic.

Perhaps that option is something to consider.

The real question comes down to depth versus breadth. You can easily spend a week touring Ireland or even a week in just Paris. Depth probably implies just three locations over the course of three weeks, which leaves time to travel within that area. For breadth and not depth, a cruise might be the best option.