Help selecting a new non-European used car
 

I know this is off topic but you Fodorites know everything and I think my dilemma is probably not uncommon. I have always owned a European car (VW, BMW, Jag, Volvo). But the old Volvo station wagon is on it's last legs and we need a replacement. With gas prices soaring, I'd like to get something that uses regular (not premium) unleaded, is awd or 4 wheel drive and economical to maintain. I've resisted the SUV route. First choice would be a wagon. What are some good used car options?

If you've got some website recos I'll take those too. I found a decision matrix but only for new cars. I want something 2-3 yrs. old. Thanks in advance for any info or personal experiences.

www.kbb.com
www.edmunds.com

Subaru Outback wagon...we loved ours. Fun to drive, dual sunroofs, regular unleaded, great gas mileage, tons of space!

I wouldn't think of buying a non-European car (wagon or otherwise), but if I had to, then, it would have to be a Subaru station wagon or Forrester.

No question, Subaru. [I have had a WRX and a Legacy 2.5GT.]

The Outback (not Outback Sport, which is a different model) is based on the Legacy, with slightly higher ride-height and different trim/options.

If you don't care for those, you can just get a Legacy wagon.

The Subaru 2.5-liter flat-4 uses regular unleaded, and makes 165hp. It's not the most powerful, but is reasonably peppy. I believe fuel economy is about 22/29 or something close to it. Not bad for a AWD vehicle.

Have you tried looking at any of the millions of auto websites. there are reviews of all new and used models - including consumer reports - all the details you need - and the info you need to figure out a fari price to pay.

IMHO - you're always better with a Japanese car - with Honda/Acura, Toyota/Lexus you get much more for your money and quality is at least as good and problably better - than with a european model - unless the BMW etc logo is a key selling point.

http://www.canadiandriver.com/news/050314-1.htm

Best wishes,

Rex

Thanks all for the help. Nytraveler I had looked at some of those millions of websites (Kelly's blue book, edmunds, nada, yadda, yadda, yadda) which is why I asked the question. Information overload. #-O

Rex, I'm intrigued by the Hyundai option. I sort of wish there were an American option (I really like the Chrysler Pacifica but it's too new). :-?

DH was looking at the subaru wagon and in the end bought the volvo xc 70--wagon, *not* SUV--and has been grateful every day he went w/volvo!!

We have experienced only minor repair with Camrys. My 1987 has had repairs only to the transmission and the a/c and the CV joints at 130,000 miles.

Other than that: mufflers, tires, brakes, and batteries

Mclaurie---while seeking experience and recommendations on autos from people on this forum will give you specific pro's and con's, the individual experiences should not take the place of the mass of statistical information that is available free to you from several sources. Persons on this forum will give you their own specific ideas, but for every record of a wonderful car of XYZ make, I can find a specific tale of lousy experience with the same car. So I'd suggest you go back to your broad sources of information rather than relying on a few tidbits out of the millions of car owners whose data is available from the other sources.

Mclaurie,

Why don't you pose your question to the boys on "Car Talk" on NPR Saturday morning?

The reason why I (and others) can answer mclaurie so readily with Subaru is that it's basically the only "right" answer.

Non-European + station wagon + 4WD = Subaru.

There's no other alternative.

BTW, the Volvo XC90 is definitely a SUV. You can call it whatever you like, but it's as typical a SUV as one can find. If you want a traditional wagon, Volvo has several good ones. The V70 can be ordered with a powerful turbo engine too...

HI rkkwan--I was referring to the 70, I was just afraid that if I did not clarify that I was not referring to the SUV, I would confuse someone. I find it confusing that both models--wagon and SUV--use the designation "XC", so in my attempt to be clear, I was not!! Of course the 90 is an SUV. We have the XC 70 AWD wagon w/turbo assist and DH says it drives like a dream!!

socialworker - Sorry, my bad... Yes, you did say the 70.

Speaking of Swedish brands, how about the Saab 9-2X? It's built by Subaru in Japan, as a clone of the Impreza wagon. That'd be a little "different", But you still get the reliability, AWD, and regular gas if you pick the non-turbo "Linear" model.

But that's a relatively new model, and I doubt you'll find any used ones, and nothing 2-3 years old.

Turbochargers rarely give give long-term owner/buyer satisfaction. They usually fail after a few years and the repair bills are often staggering.

Mclaurie - with your wish for 4 wheel drive, I say shop for a Subaru.

Coming from left field however, is that 4 WD Jaguar sedan (Jags take such a beating in the used car market, that it is worth checking prices.).

As always, when buying a used car, a thorough inspection by a professional mechanic is a must.

I totally disagree with Doble. Saab, Volvo and Audi have been using turbos in many of their cars in the last 20+ years. While none of the brands is the most reliable overall, their engines are all very solid. I haven't heard of many engine failures - it's usually other stuff like electronics that fail those cars.

And I'll give you another example. I bought a used 1989 Toyota Supra some years ago. I bought the naturally-aspirated model when so many people around me told me "turbos are not reliable, blah blah blah...". Well, the Toyota 5M-series inline-6s are extremely well-built; and while some engines do have bad head gaskets, they affect the turbo and non-turbo just the same. Some tuners in Japan get up to 1,000hp from these engines with moderate modifications.

Now, I sold my Supra because it's not fast enough. If I had the turbo version, then it would be easier to upgrade the turbo, increase boost, etc... But to do that with the non-turbo version, it'd mean big bucks. So, I would have <b>much higher long-term satisfaction</b> with the car if I had the turbo engine.

Or ask someone who's driven a Subaru with the 165hp naturally aspirated 2.5L and then the 250/300hp turbo version which car will give them long-term satisfaction?

Modern turbos are better designed with increased oil-flow - and therefore cooling - so premature death is basically history. Well, sure one can still cook a turbo if you race the car and then shut it off immediately; but with just small precaution, it's really a non-issue.

Ditto Subaru Outback Wagon - but it's really hard to find one in my neck of the woods (for resale).

Well I know this is on-topic, so excuse me.

Not for someone looking for a non-European used car, but for someone looking for an economical, safe, affordable new non-non-European car, think about Volvo's overseas delivery program, the one that throws in a couple of tickets to Sweden and a night in lovely Goteborg as well as a savings of a couple-three grand on the cheapest Volvos. Look at the V50 AWD - not a bad rig.

Details at http://www.volvocars.us/FinancialServices/Overseas/ - look at individual models for pricing, and at the &quot;special offers&quot; for air promos.

Gardyloo - You might want to look at the Audi A3. About the same prize range as the V50. I test drove it a few weeks ago, and it's sweet. The new 2.0T engine is very strong, especially with the 6-speed manual. The current Car &amp; Driver has a favorable review.

Don't know if Audi has a European delivery option, or if the A3 is covered.

Thank you all for talking the time to provide input and recommendations.

Wayne, I had no intention of using &quot;Mother-in-law research&quot; for this purchase decision, but given the number of vehicles available, I thought some help from my very knowlegeable Fodor's friends would narrow the field for me and it certainly has! I spent a day looking at American cars and notice not one person has mentioned an American car.
:-?

Underhill, what a fun idea! I used to enjoy those guys. I haven't listened in a while. I might give it a try.

Socialworker &amp; Gardyloo, we would <i>love</i> another Volvo, but servicing/running costs have been out of sight in our experience. In contrast, the Japanese cars seem to need very little expensive servicing. But I love the idea of a trip to Sweden. ;) Btw Doble, we have a 740 turbo and to my knowledge it was never the turbo or the engine we had problems with (until now). But I will look into Gardyloo's suggestion and maybe have a look at the Audi quattro. A friend actually mentioned that as an option and I don't know much about it.

I am not adverse to the idea of a European car. It's just the servicing/ownership costs seem to be so much more.

Sooo, if I were to restate the question, regardless of nationality, what's a dependable, low cost maintenance vehicle, good in snow that would replace a Volvo wagon, would there be different answers?

My answer would stay the same...Subaru Legacy Outback wagon. Drove ours (used) for a few years here in DC in snow and ice and it was fantastic. Only maintenance for it was replaced brake pads.

We have a second house in NH (live in NJ) from what I've noticed the Subaru Outback is the &quot;official&quot; car of NH. They are all over the place, no matter what people can afford, they have an Outback and LOVE them....snow, mud...

Another vote for Subaru. We live in NH, and just bought our 3rd Subaru, a Forester. We just sold our '95 Legacy wagon, which was the most reliable, practical car we ever owned. The Forester is slightly shorter, higher off the ground, more SUV like (but with no rollover issues), the Legacy was more car like. Either vehicle is great.

Not that you need to hear it, but here's another vote for the Subaru. My wife absolutely loves her Outback. And in the NC mountains, you see them all over the place.

Unfortunately Audi doesn't have an European delivery program. I was suggesting the Volvo approach because when we interviewed a bunch of cars 18 months ago to replace one of a series of Camrys my spouse had owned (nice car, but basically a kitchen appliance - it runs, you don't fix it until you get tired of it, which in my case took several weeks...) we looked at all the Subarus along with everything else.

When we lived in Alaska the Subaru 4WD wagons had just come out and were used and owned by everybody - it outsold every other vehicle in the state except Ford pickups that you could jack up, put a light bar on top, and stock with cases of beer and rifles for good times in the woods...erg. We owned one too and then another when we got back to the states. Nice. Another appliance.

Tastes differ. I think the current Subs are rather overpriced myself, but who am I to argue against success.

Volvo overhauled their maintenance and upkeep regimes, but I mentioned the freebie Sweden delivery trip because hey, this is a Europe travel board. When we picked up a car (a Snaab in our case) in a Euro delivery program some years ago the trip went straight to the top of the list of fun times (as of then) with a bullet. Fun when buying a car? Who knew?

I had planned to buy a Saab 95 wagon after returning to the US after living in Ireland, and driving a Saab 93, which I loved. However, the dealer I went to sold both Saabs and Subarus, and the salesman had me drive an Outback as well as the Saab. The Outback won hands down. Now, if Saab made a 93 wagon, I'd buy it, but I love my Outback.

mclaurie,

as you are now considering to take a look at Audi, I feel tempted to throw in a recommendation. I own an A3 and am enthusiastically convinced of its qualities.

Over here in Germany Audi has just passed Toyota in recent reliabilty statistics. And they have started a new campaign to become the industry leader in reliability and quality.
Over recent years they have already managed to become the benchmark in haptic quality and it shows.
Their driving performance has been increased significantly, too, and they are currently in close competition with BMW.
The Audi allroad quattro wagon is an understated all terrain vehicle with reasonably sporty on-road performance and excellent off-road qualities.
And the ordinary quattro models will most likely not disappoint you.
One downside may be that the loss in value in the U.S. is presumably still a lot higher than here in Europe, but then this might even be beneficial as you are looking for a used one anyway.
Another important factor may be that Audi has just introduced a new A6 Avant wagon over here which is likely to be on the market in the U.S. soon, too. This might lead to an extra loss in value of the previous models.

Ann21,

Saab has just started the production of a 9-3 station wagon and it gets quite good reviews for its sporty performance!

Regarding my coment on turbos. Mclaurie stated a wish for a used car and &quot;economical to maintain&quot;. If you buy a turbocharged car and sell it at 45,000 miles you will probably love it.

I will admit that this comment is from the 1980's but from the experiences (and repair bills) of four close friends, turbos fail (some at 60,000 miles) and with $1,500 to $3,000 repair bills. I knew one person who got one of these repair bills and did not even know what a turbo was. You are right, a turbo does not affect the dependability of the basic engine.

The normal operating speed of a turbo is 100,000 rpm. This is why turbos fail. In contrast your car engine spends 80% of its time at 4,000 rpm or less.

I was just trying to advise Mclaurie that buying a used turbo car might not satisfy the desire for economical maintenance. You can buy a used car for the cost of replacing some turbos.

For the record, just in case mclaurie decides to get a used turbo-charged Subaru, like a 2002+ WRX wagon - the turbo is readily accessible and easy to swap out. I know many friends who have gotten bigger turbos on their WRXs and it takes just a few amateurs a couple of hours to do. So, even if the turbo does fail, it's not that expensive to replace.

That's all...