Help on overall itinerary (7 countries in 60 days)
 

Hello all,

I'll be going on an extended trip next May-June and we're hoping to cover the following places: (technically it'll be 7 countries, but we're not planning to do a rushed trip of covering all the touristy areas)

Belgium (WWII sites)
Germany (Rhine/Black Forest/Bavaria and Berlin) – have posted on this on another thread
Austria (Salzburg, beer spa)
Greece (Athens, Thessaloniki, Santorini)
Italy (Venice, Rome, perhaps a Tuscan town and Sicily)
France (Monaco, Nice, Paris)
Switzerland (Interlaken, drive through some of the scenic roads)

I have permanent accoms in Belgium, but we'll probably start from Paris or Berlin, depending on the airfares in May.

My problem now is I've no idea how to go about doing those countries! We're planning to take all forms of transport, rail, car, fly and bus/ferry, so anything goes! Most likely for the Germany, Switzerland and Austria part of the trip we're planning to rent a car, but I'm not sure where I should start!

I was thinking the following route:
France - Belgium - Switzerland - Germany - Austria - back to Belgium to rest - Italy - Greece - back to Belgium

Does the following route make sense, or should I perhaps change the places about a little? I'm fine with travelling openjaw or even going back to Belgium as a base (of course it must be cost-efficient and time-efficient) I was hoping to include Spain as well, but I think that we might not have time for that, because I'm thinking probably 3 nights at each location, plus 1 day each week devoted to travelling (estimated).

For those who have done similar Europe trips before, I hope I can get some ideas off you! Thanks

I would read some guide books, study maps of Europe, learn to use " Google Maps", and then come back with a better defined itinerary. You are merely shot-gunning now. We did 8 weeks one trip in 1999 but only covered about half of your proposed distances. My first impression is to drop Greece and forget Sicily--both are too far to be feasible.
I would start in Paris and use the " buy back lease program" for your car. You have a good opportunity to do something wonderful with this much time, but you will need to do tons of homework first.

Like Bob, I recommend plotting the proposed route on the map. For example, you have to cross the length of Germany to do Belgium-Switzerland, so why skip Germany and come back?
Austria and Italy are right next to each other. I can't imagine why it is more cost or time efficient to go back to Belgium from Austria only to go back to Italy.

for such a wide-ranging trip if going a lot by rail and to me rail is the way to go if going mainly to cities, where cars are really liabilities - many city centres off-limits to cars - you have to often pay $30/day or so to park in cities and theft from parked cars is a concern - so for inter-city travel take trains - and there are also many overnight trains so you can move around a lot and even save a hotel cost to boot. I would investigate a railpass of some sort and also the individual railway sites for discounted online only deals - those require advance purchase often of weeks and are train-specific - no changing often so you lose flexibility. Anyway for lots on rail travel in Europe and passes too i always point out these sites that i have found have tons of objective info and not just pass prices and an add to cart button - indeed even if not going by rail these sites have tons of things to plan your trip - www.ricksteves.com; www.budgeteuropetravel.com (check out their free to download European Planning & Rail Guide for itinerary suggestions) and www.seat61.com. I have traveled Europe by train for decades and have had literally hundreds of railpasses - i am partial to train travel and have a bias for passes - assuming one is doing enough travel like you seem to be planning.

hi all

thanks for the replies.
@bob: thanks for the heads up on the buy back lease program! it seems very suited for our needs! Also, I've read your trip reports on Sicily and I'm most likely leaving it for another time. May I know which places you went to on your 8-week trip? Thanks!

@greg and bob: the problem is that I've actually more or less come up with itineraries with the individual portions of the trip, but now have problems piecing them together. I actually have a very good idea of where all the countries/places are on the map since I'm studying history/geography. the reason for be to skip Germany before doing Belgium-Switz, is because I was thinking renting a car from Switz-Germany-Austria would seem more logical. And the reason why I'm suggesting to go back to Belgium once is mainly because I'm worried about the amount of stuff I'll have to bring along, laundry as well as travel weariness.

Hmmm ! 1999, celebrtaing our 40th:
Madrid
Week in Andalusia
Costa Brava
Provence
Menton--French Riviera
Lago Orta
Veneto---Bassano del Grappa
Dolomites--Cortina
Salzburg and St. Gilgen
Vienna
Melk--to Cesky Krumlov
Prague---5 days
Rothenburg ,Germany
Bavaria--castles etc.
Munich---drop car---56 days with car--a Peugeot 400

Note a trend here--very few big cities and lots of natural beauty--that is my style.

For you, I would start in Paris and end in Rome and have 12 to 15 destinations total. Think in terms of regions and not countries--all of Europe is really regions anyway.
Perhaps:
Paris
Belguim
Black Forest
Bavaria
Salzburg/Salzkammergut
Swiss Alps
Italy lakes
Tuscany
Rome

That is not perfect but gives you a flow and direction---you fill in some of the gaps. Pack for 60 days the same as 10 days. Just plan to take time out along the way. We did laundry 5 times--at local wash/dry places. Paris, Rome, and teh Swiss Alps all take 5 days each IMHO--maybe Tuscany too.

Hope this helps. You will not need the car in Paris nor Rome, so that saves you 9 nites on the lease rate. You will go back--save something for next time. We just got back from our 25th trip to Europe--celebrating our 50th this time.

thanks bob!
i'll do more research and definitely come back when i have a more concrete plan!

Hi ins,

>....going back to Belgium as a base (of course it must be cost-efficient and time-efficient)....<

Going back to a base can't be efficient.

I suggest starting at the farthest destination and traveling to the nearest, or VV, with open-jaw air travel.

www.viamichelin.com can help you plot your course.

Some thoughts:

Greece is a major outlier.

You aren't giving enough time to France

Why Sicily and not Florence?

You are going to just drive through Switzerland, with an overnight in Interlaken?

Enjoy your planning.
((I))

I'm always the contrarian on this - - but I would advise starting by knocking off 30-40 days from this plan.

But I would also not dare to make any radical suggestions without knowing a lot more about you - - how old are you? traveling solo? motivation(s) for picking any or all of these destinations? been to Europe before? repeatedly? you have (some) connection(s) there?

And how does the expense of this trip fit in with your travel plans for the whole next decade. I think that making a plan to go to Europe three times in the next "x" years will be better advice than going for 60 days, with not much of a shot to make substantially adventurous travel plans for years to come.

The best thing about this forum is that you will get a broad spectrum of advice.

Best wishes,

Rex

car drop-offs in other countries from which one you rented can be steep so check on that or devise a loop itinerary that brings you back where you started you car rental.

The lease buy back program is not a rental, but there will be a surcharge to drop in Rome.

thanks for the tips guys,

we've shortened our list to
Belgium (WWII sites) -5 days
Germany (probably just Berlin) - 3 days
Austria (Salzburg, beer spa) - 3 days
Italy (Venice, Rome, Florence, Cinque Terre) - 10 days
France (Monaco, Nice, Paris) - 6 days
Switzerland (Interlaken, drive through some of the scenic roads like San Bernardino) - 5 days

We're most likely driving through France - Switz- Germany - Austria, although I think Berlin might be too much of a detour. I've stated the number of days above as the number of days I plan to stay in those places, travelling to/away from the places not included of course. I've actually been to Italy (Milan/Rome/Florence/Pisa) for 3 weeks earlier this year, hence we're focussing more on Florence+Cinque Terre this time around, hence the short 10 days. Same goes for Paris, we've been there twice already, so the 6 days will be concentrated on Monaco actually. Turns out to be 32 days, excluding travel, tentatively, which seems great to me, because then we can take our time to travel from one place to the other, extending the trip when necessary. Will this be a better move? I read that May/June is still the shoulder season, so I'm thinking probably no reservations are required - I'll just move from place to place and look for accoms when I'm there

And the buy back lease program is very much suited for our needs, thanks bob!

Hi in,

>Same goes for Paris, we've been there twice already, so the 6 days will be concentrated on Monaco actually.<

Well, if you think that there is enough to do for a week in Monaco. I have been to Paris numerous times. Age cannot wither her, nor custom stale her infinite variety.

There is nothing in Provence that could entice you away from the casino in Monaco?

((I))

That is better, but you do need to pick up your car in France for best prices. And, I agree that Monaco is worth a max of 5 hours--stay in Nice or Menton.
Of course, the 5 destinations in Italy make no sense at all. Where do you go after Salzburg? If Venice, then that is a long drive. Where next? If CT then that is a long drive. I would forget the cities in Italy until you get to Rome--the car is a real liability in the other cites.
Think logistics--not just appeal.

Monaco would be good for five days only as a base and it can be a great base - you can ditch the car if you want and hop the train to places along the coast, like Nice (big French cities are very car un-friendly IME) or drive from Monaco to places up in the hills like Eze, St Paul-de-Vence, Vence, etc.

One spectacular inland drive i've done loops high up behind Nice en route to St Paul de Vence area - kind of a corniche route but inland - spectacular scenery - you could even leave the Riviera area this way and avoid the tedious coastal autoroutes (and their predatory tolls!)

<< I read that May/June is still the shoulder season, so I'm thinking probably no reservations are required - I'll just move from place to place and look for accoms when I'm there >>

I'm going to plagiarize myself, providing, once again, an answer I have posted here more than once over the years...

==================================================

The success of this plan depends on how much time you want to spend traipsing from one place to another, encountering no vacancies - - when you could have avoided that... with time spent, almost effortlessly, on the internet before your trip.

But, as I have said before on questions of this nature, "we" won't mind if you choose not to make reservations.

All the people who provide and receive advice on this forum will thank you for NOT making reservations in advance - - you won't be competing with "us" for the accommodations with the best locations, the best features and the best rates that we snarf up by making reservations in advance. We appreciate your settling for the places in the less ideal locations, with the crummier features, at the higher rates.

thanks all again for the advice.

sorry i wasn't clear previously - we'll be spending two days in monaco because we'll be catching the race there (we'll be working our itinerary around that date, otherwise everything else is pretty much flexible). the other 4 days allocated to france will go 2 nights each to Paris and Nice.

also, thanks bob for the tips - it's our first drive trip in Europe so we're pretty much very excited and want to include everything in!

This is the modified itinerary
France (Monaco, Nice, Paris) - 6 days
Switzerland (probably Geneva, Interlaken, drive through some of the scenic roads like San Bernardino, nothing much planned here yet) - 5 days
Germany (10 days)

We'll fly into Paris airport, start with the city, and rent a car before leaving for Nice and Monaco. We'll enter Switzerland, and then do the German Romantic Road trip that I've been discussing on another thread. I've decided to not do Austria, Italy and Belgium by car since I find it quite hard to place in the whole itinerary. (The Peugeot scheme doesn't have a dropoff location in Austria, and Germany only has Munich and Frankfurt, and the dropoff fee for Frankfurt is USD180, which is quite reasonable IMO) We'll be dropping the car off in Frankfurt before flying back to Belgium to rest for 1 week (and maybe do some mini trips to Netherlands since the tulips will be blooming then). Then we'll probably do Italy for about 2 weeks by train (flying into Venice and out from Rome tentatively). We haven't firmed up what we want to do exactly in Italy, but I would think 2 weeks would suffice since from my exp, train travel is quite cheap and convenient in Italy (cinque terre aside)

Further comments please? I'm really happy with how the itinerary is shaping up because I was so lost previously!

It'd be great also, if anyone familiar with Switzerland can give advice on where to stay/visit because I've actually spent a few months in Geneva previously for travel and family, so I've pretty much covered the French region of Switz but am quite unfamiliar with the rest. The only one definite thing about Switz is that we'll have to drive through the San Bernardino pass (it's non-negotiable according to my DH).

The drive from Paris to Nice is over 900K and depending on where you leave from in Paris at least 8 1/2 hours. Seems like a long distance to travel for two days in each of those places.

You might take the TGV Paris-Nice in about 5hrs 40 min and see Nice/Monaco/Eze/St. Paul de Vence without a car. Rent the car when you leave Nice for Switzerland. Although the TGV is likely more expensive than renting a car you won't be paying for a car park in Nice and Monaco for the entire stay.

Nice is only about 17k and under 30 minutes from Monaco. I would stay in one place the whole time, not pack and unpack to stay at two places so close to each other. I'm just guessing but during the race week Monaco is likely to be crazy expensive and there may be minimum night stays required.

If you've already been to Paris you might consider skipping Paris altogether this time. Fly directly to the south of France so you don't eat up so much time traveling to and fro and have more time to enjoy the sights.

thanks amwosu, i'm looking into flying into nice directly!

i kinda like the idea of spending some time in/near menton, but i was wondering how convenient it is to do the Nice/Monaco/Eze/St. Paul de Vence without a car? i was thinking maybe we should fly into Nice, do Monaco for 1 day, then rent the car to see Eze and St Paul before driving into Switzerland, but is it difficult to find parking or costly to get parking in those 2 places?

Check out costs for flying into Marseille as well as Nice. I fly from the US and would be looking at prices now for May-June but I usually find the best fares if I wait until Jan-Feb. to buy airline tickets. Know what prices are now so that when a sale pops up you'll be ready to "pull the trigger" without second guessing yourself.

Start a new thread with the title "Nice/Monaco/Eze/St.Paul with or without a car?" Then in the subject ask about seeing Nice and Monaco without a car and the pros and cons of renting the car to then see Eze, St. Paul and other local towns. There are some generous experts on fodors (Stu Dudley comes to mind) who spend months in the south of France and can help tremendously with your question.

It is always nice when someone listens to the suggestions of others when fine tuning an itinerary. So many times people post their itinerary ideas then respond defensively when others suggest alternatives.
-Ann Marie

I agree, get the car in Nice---too far to drive from Paris.
The best of Switzerland is the Berner Oberland and Luzern is also a highlight. Sounds like fun---good luck !

Ira and Bob the Nav.

....check out the five or six relevant threads that this OP has come up with...all as scattered as this one. Methinks there is a problem here when you piece it altogether (if you want to waste your time doing so...I did and I'm finished with it).. She just joined in November...and there are at least a dozen contradictory points....for example, first it's her DH going with her, then it's a "partner", and then it's a "friend"...she's in her early 20's..I think we've all been had. Strange(I'm going to post these comments on the other threads....and the beat goes on!)

stu

Good read Stu !

Your conclusion seems peculiar to me, stu...

There are only _three_ threads that relate to this particular trip: this one, one about Germany and one about Greece. The Greece thread was started the same as this one, and she makes clear that she has dropped Greece from the (too-ambitious) original plan(s). So, really there are just the two.

Segmenting off the Germany questions does not seem suspicious to me.

She has asked only two other questions - - one seems a little peculiar about Sweden; the other (about her mother and friends in England) might have some quirky notions about geography, but nothing else that suggests that "we've all been had".

I had similar thoughts but I chose to give OP the benefit of the doubt even if he/she is only dreaming. I'm guessing the OP is young and seems to be a little clueless about traveling on their own.

<i>"we've all been had".</i>

Rex...perhaps a bit harsh..but if you take a close of her other threads, you'll see an irregular pattern. I answered her Swedish thread, then got to thinking...I still don't think it's real.
stu

Rex...should read: "take a close <u>read</u> of her other threads"...it still makes little or no sense to me, Rex.
stu

hello stu

i think it's kinda harsh but i'll explain what i'm doing. i'm currently doing a gap year and have one year devoted to just travelling. so basically, end of this year, i'll be doing a trip to paris +italy and then to stockholm (which i've planned and asked started one thread one), and i'm actually doing a whole lot more trips in between, which i haven't asked questions on because i've found answers from other threads.

then my mom n friends are visiting in april, hence the thread on uk since they're dropping by my place first. and then my own huge trip with my partner/friend/bf/whatever u call him in may/june. i'm not sure if it seems suspicious but i was just planning and decided to come up with qns at one go. and i'm not sure if anyone would be so free/have nothing to do such as to waste time asking questions and waste time formulating itineraries which will not be put into action.

i hope that clarifies things a little.

don't know if this has already been mentioned, but ...
the cinque terre is most easily reached from monaco as per your itinerary. also, since you are already visiting the french riviera, i might be tempted to substitute a tuscan hill town for the italian riviera.

Insouciance:

Thanks for you partial clarification...<u>but don't you agree that coming out with this information would have avoided any suspicions?</u> There have been too many original posters over the years who have asked a multitude of questions, posted preliminary itineraries, etc, and are never heard from again.

Perhaps if you had answered Rex's list of questions (in one of the posts above), the necessary clarification would have kicked in.

Rex wrote:
<i>But I would also not dare to make any radical suggestions without knowing a lot more about you - - how old are you? traveling solo? motivation(s) for picking any or all of these destinations? been to Europe before? repeatedly? you have (some) connection(s) there?</i>

And you could mention where you will be starting from...country, city, state, region, province..most posters do...it does have a bearing on your itinerary. I'm guessng UK.

It is really none of our business, but you gave further pause when you seem to be unsure about just whom you'll be traveling with, when you write:

<i>and then my own huge trip with my partner/friend/bf/whatever u call him...</i>

...and before that you refer to this mystery person as follows:

<i>drive through the San Bernardino pass (it's non-negotiable according to my DH).</i> Take your choice...which is it? Just pick one and that would not have been an alarm factor.

Good luck, no matter what you finally do..

Stu Tower
(by the way, "insouciance"..good name...are you really that "nonchalant"...?)

You should have made that explanation from the start, so that people as you say who are busy will not waste time carefully formulating itineraries that will never be considered. This would be the thoughtful way to go.

First off, sorry if you guys were alarmed about me having 'had' you guys, but i was kinda upset that some of you jumped to a huge conclusion without even posting on this thread to verify. I'm new to this - as said by someone above, so I'm still learning how to post questions on this forum. And from what I read in previous threads/posts, I generally see people disclosing certain details about their trip, and I've used a similar approach in all my threads, by stating my purpose, what i plan to do, my aims, etc - which i initially thought was sufficient, but i guess it's not judging from the posts above.

so for more disclosure and to answer tower: i didn't think the information about me staying a year in europe to travel was relevant initially because i started off asking questions on germany, which was the part of the trip i had problems on. I have been in europe for almost half a year already, and in this amount of time, i've made use of information from the forums to plan trips to paris, oslo, munich, turkey and other places, and you haven't seen me ask questions or opening threads on these places solely because I didnt have problems planning those places and found answers from previous posts.

and it wasn't on purpose that i didn't answer Rex's qns - I'm 23 and the 'problem' or fun thing about my gap year is that I'm basically working part time here in Belgium where I'm located currently and doing trips to places in Europe. I've done some parts of the trip solo, and others with friends - be it two of us or a large group. Instead what I've done is to provide details as to what I'm intending to do for certain legs of the trips - ie, May/June with my partner (I shall stick to this term now given the confusion or 'alarm factor' caused to the rest) and for the Swedish thread, with 3 of my student friends. I also don't have a fixed start off point, I'm located in Brussels, but I don't mind taking a cheap flight out to another place to start off my itinerary, plus my time is really flexible - I can work on any days with advance notice and I can leave for any place any time --> more like whichever place takes my fancy and which air tickets are cheapest and whether i can find company to travel with.

and having said that, i really cannot imagine someone 'dreaming' up going to these places, taking the time to listen to advice, and replying as i have - do you guys encounter many of these people; and hence the 'panic' so to speak? please take this question in good faith though!

alright, and going back to my original purpose of starting the thread - i'm thankful to all of u who have given feedback on the itinerary - i will try to get back with a report, but that'll only be in June. And I'll be taking amwosu's advice to start a new thread on the france bit after i've done some preliminary research on my own, so I hope it won't cause even MORE alarm :/

Way too harsh. "partner/friend/bf/whatever you call him" could easily be synonyms.

She says that "DH" is offering "non-negotiable" advice about the San Bernardino pass - - but does not say that "DH" is going.

It seems almost excessively nosy to delve in to the issue of whether she has BOTH a "DH" (maybe she means it to signify some thing other than Dear Husband) AND a partner/friend/bf/whatever.

Maybe "partner" means "travel partner", not "life partner". Maybe "bf" means "best friend".

She's a newbie - - is this kind of interrogation warranted?

thanks rex, and to clarify things more - i thought DH meant dahling and not dear husband, which is what i call my partner :X shall stick to partner from now on!

Sorry for the third degree you've gotten. Please don't let it turn you off of Fodor's message boards which are so helpful. I think the generation gap may just be showing a bit. "DH" is sometimes "dear heart" and as such is interchangable with companion, partner, bf, etc.

It is nice to hear you've used posts from others to plan trips. Newbies frequently get on the forums and ask where to go, what to do and how much it will cost without ever using the search engine to do a little homework.

Apologies for any suspicions on my part about the plausibility of your travels. The red flag came partially because you sound young and started with a very ambitious European stay. You have no history of offering advice to others on trip planniing and had not included details of your own situation. You wouldn't believe some of the "trolls" that have come along over the years that fit into a similar mold. Anyone remember travis?
-Ann Marie

Hi insouciance,
We did the Peugeot buy back lease program. Flew from Edinburgh to Paris, did a week in an apt in Paris then picked up the lease car at Orly. Had the car for the next 86 days and dropped it off outside Rome before visiting Rome. It worked out great. It was about $3000. Please be sure to check the minimum age for the lease program.

We toured France then stayed in the Berner Oberland in Lauterbrunnen in an apt for a week. Very beautiful scenery in that area. You can go through tons of film up there.

From there we headed through the Mosel and Rhine river areas of Germany before heading down through Rothenburgh, Augsburg for Oktoberfest, and then finally we headed down to Venice, CT, Tuscany and Pompeii before dropping off the car and visiting Rome.

We had an absolute blast and would do it again in a heartbeat. We did make reservations ahead of time for the entire trip though since it was high season. Worked out great. Even though it was an adventuresome trip I just couldn't bring myself to just go day to day without knowing where I would be staying. That to me is way too stressful, but others love traveling like that.

Michele

<b>Travel Jan hit it spot on with this concise statement..thanks TravelJan:</b>

<i>You should have made that explanation from the start, so that people as you say who are busy will not waste time carefully formulating itineraries that will never be considered. This would be the thoughtful way to go.</i>

and Rex says: <i>She's a newbie - - is this kind of interrogation warranted?</i>

Yes and Yes. Rex, you began the appropriate interrogation and did not get any answers until I prodded further.I think any of us who have been at sea on these threads of hers began to see the light after her answer to my "suspicious" inquisition (per above posts). Because insouicance is a November newbie, I feel she will now consider coming up with clear statements at the outset in her future posts. She has said so much in the more recent posts following my "harsh" but necessary comments. Because of our correpondence she has already offered answers, including where she is located...Brussels...that alone serves to help.

stu tower

thanks michele - my partner only has one month to spare for me since he's working and i'm not, so i'm still working around that - but tentatively i'll be sticking to
France (Monaco, Nice, probably Eze/St Paul) - 6 days
Switzerland (Interlaken or Lauterbrunnen, San Bernardino, Luzern) - 5 days (San Bernardino seems a little out of the way since we're making our way up to Germany, but since it's a must go - how should I go about it - Lauterbrunnen followed by a detour to San B and then up to Luzern on the way to Germany?)
Germany (10 days)

This will leave us with another 10 days or so to do Italy (mainly Venice and Cinque Terre) separately. I was initially thinking of doing France - Germany - Switzerland - Italy, renting the car for the entire month because it seems the most logical (route wise - rent from Paris, going directly into Germany, Switz, Italy, with detour to Nice etc, then onto CT), but it seems that the places we want to go in Italy (Venice and CT) are not too car-friendly? (based on the posts above)

No city in Italy IME is car friendly - wide swathes of city centres being off-limits to private vehicles. And there have been complaints here about folks receiving tickets in the mail months after their trips for entering the no-private vehicle zones say in Florence (naively entering without knowing it). So for cities cars are indeed a liability - pay to park them and leave nothing of value in them - many hotels do not have parking, etc.

Hi insouciance,
Our itinerary only included Lauterbrunnen so we did not go to Luzern. We left Lauterbrunnen and went back through NE France, the Alsace region, and then up to Germany.

We did have our car all through Italy, mainly for the Tuscany region. We parked in the lot across from the train station in Mestre and trained into Venice. We drove to Vernazza, but the road is really twisty turney and many probably would not want to attempt it. For us though it was great having a car. Each person is different.

No matter how you plan the itinerary there will always be another way to do it. I had three itineraries before I came up with our final. Just get a big map out, like I did. Put pushpins where you want to go and then piece it together from there using the shortest routes. It's really a basic way to do it and is easier seeing all the countries together than trying to plan it one country at a time. Take us, we left France, popped over to Switzerland and then picked up another little piece of France before heading to Germany.

The borders IMO are a non issue. I didn't even know we crossed into Germany until I saw a Wilkommen sign. I actually was kind of disappointed as I wanted more stamps in my passport!

Take care,
Michele