Help me plan a trip to Europe
Dec 27th, 2004, 03:09 PM
#23
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I think "London and Paris" is the generic answer to "where should I start" with good reason.
If a traveler has never been in another country before and has no foreign language fluency, I recommend the U.K. because it's a good place to get immersed in another culture without having to deal simultaneously with a language barrier. And make no mistake, the Brits are as different from Americans as Germans are (with additional variations in Ireland, Scotland and Wales).
Once they get acclimated in some small way to culture shock itself, Paris doesn't seem like quite such a leap, even though they spell things funny. Its other asset is that it's nearby.
For avowed Francophobes, my recommended second country is Holland or Denmark.
If a traveler has never been in another country before and has no foreign language fluency, I recommend the U.K. because it's a good place to get immersed in another culture without having to deal simultaneously with a language barrier. And make no mistake, the Brits are as different from Americans as Germans are (with additional variations in Ireland, Scotland and Wales).
Once they get acclimated in some small way to culture shock itself, Paris doesn't seem like quite such a leap, even though they spell things funny. Its other asset is that it's nearby.
For avowed Francophobes, my recommended second country is Holland or Denmark.
Dec 27th, 2004, 03:19 PM
#24
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Robespierre,
UK a warm up for culture shock??? Too Funny...why not send someone to San Francisco first! LOL Immerse yourselves in any culture, you need no warm up other than learning that culture, customes and some of the language before you go! Other facts such as currency, etc are helpful too! Happy travels.
UK a warm up for culture shock??? Too Funny...why not send someone to San Francisco first! LOL Immerse yourselves in any culture, you need no warm up other than learning that culture, customes and some of the language before you go! Other facts such as currency, etc are helpful too! Happy travels.
Dec 27th, 2004, 03:31 PM
#25
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There is absolutely no way ( none) that all eight of you will agree on one itinerary for even a day, let alone eight days. Most people , or families have a chosen natural rhythm that is comfortable. Change it and unusual things occur. Think of one location only, Paris, Rome or London(most likely) and go there. Then each natural group can find their own tourist rhythm and do as they please.
If the cooperation wanes you could have a vacation from hell.
Enjoy.
If the cooperation wanes you could have a vacation from hell.
Enjoy.
Dec 27th, 2004, 03:33 PM
#27
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I don't feel like the UK is really "foreign". I started with France and then followed with Italy. Neither were particularly intimidating and both were very exciting. Three days really isn't long enough anywhere though. Given the OP's preferences I would say 5 in Paris and 5 in Spain (you pick the city). Enjoy your trip. There will never be another quite like you're (their) first.
Dec 27th, 2004, 03:38 PM
#28
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My first trip to Europe was in 1969, at age 15, for six weeks, and was - - at least in theory, a "survey of western civilization" <i>course</i>. With about twenty other kids, ranging in age from 14 to 20. One adult chaperone (only), an art teacher, whose own children (ages 16, 18?) were her "lieutenants".
It went something like this:
Rome - - about 6 days, included Pompeii and Tivoli
Rome->Brindisi->Patras->Athens; overnight
Athens - - about 4 days; included Delphi, and some island, I think.
Thessaloniki, Zagreb, Belgrade, Ljubljana - - one night each
Venice - - two nights, I think
Milan - - one night, i think
Geneva - - about 3 or 4 nights (I was sick; blurred memory - - and missed seeing Neil Armstrong walk on the moon)
Paris - - 4 nights? fell in love with a California girl who was 14 yr old, chasing her through the fountains at the Palais de Chaillot; everything else a blur
London (actually commuted in from Reading each day; we stayed in dorms on the campus of the University of Reading) - about 5 days, I think.
That only adds up to 31 nights, so my memory is clearly faulty about the total duration or the length of individual destinations.
I think my "close my eyes" was mostly Greek and Roman stuff - - Colosseum, Parthenon. Most awed by, unexpectedly - - just walking around Rome, especially booksellers, along the Tiber? Zagreb, all of Venice, Eiffel Tower and especially the fountains at the Palais de Chaillot... and a cute 14 yr old.
It went something like this:
Rome - - about 6 days, included Pompeii and Tivoli
Rome->Brindisi->Patras->Athens; overnight
Athens - - about 4 days; included Delphi, and some island, I think.
Thessaloniki, Zagreb, Belgrade, Ljubljana - - one night each
Venice - - two nights, I think
Milan - - one night, i think
Geneva - - about 3 or 4 nights (I was sick; blurred memory - - and missed seeing Neil Armstrong walk on the moon)
Paris - - 4 nights? fell in love with a California girl who was 14 yr old, chasing her through the fountains at the Palais de Chaillot; everything else a blur
London (actually commuted in from Reading each day; we stayed in dorms on the campus of the University of Reading) - about 5 days, I think.
That only adds up to 31 nights, so my memory is clearly faulty about the total duration or the length of individual destinations.
I think my "close my eyes" was mostly Greek and Roman stuff - - Colosseum, Parthenon. Most awed by, unexpectedly - - just walking around Rome, especially booksellers, along the Tiber? Zagreb, all of Venice, Eiffel Tower and especially the fountains at the Palais de Chaillot... and a cute 14 yr old.
Dec 27th, 2004, 03:56 PM
#29
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Not every tourist can dive into his first foreign culture without penalty. I was lucky, my first trip having been from Kansas City to Paris with most of a minor in French under my belt. But many find that the cultural differences combined with the language problem are more than they can handle comfortably, and they become fatigued, disillusioned, and discouraged.
San Francisco wouldn't do, because it doesn't have a historical "tradition" dating to Roman times, nor a monarchy, nor an undercurrent of religious animosity, nor a social caste system, nor a unique way of cooking animal parts for consumption, nor did it ever have an Empire, or a Reformation, or a Restoration, or any of a hundred other subtle things that makes the U.K. different from Atlanta. The differences between cultures is much, much deeper than clothing and coinage.
This advice seems to make sense to many first-time travelers who have adhered to it.
YMMV
San Francisco wouldn't do, because it doesn't have a historical "tradition" dating to Roman times, nor a monarchy, nor an undercurrent of religious animosity, nor a social caste system, nor a unique way of cooking animal parts for consumption, nor did it ever have an Empire, or a Reformation, or a Restoration, or any of a hundred other subtle things that makes the U.K. different from Atlanta. The differences between cultures is much, much deeper than clothing and coinage.
This advice seems to make sense to many first-time travelers who have adhered to it.
YMMV
Dec 27th, 2004, 04:06 PM
#30
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Robespierre,
With that mindset one might not stray far from the US and Europe in their life time. You read far too much into things, where I agree on the history, culture, etc. one must also immerse themselves....of course not ignorantly, one does need to do some homework on culture, customs, language, money and that whole ball of wax. But to say start with UK thats a bit light and far to overreaching to the "get used to foreign cultures" routine. What's your most exotic place you've travelled? Did you get some warm up exercises? Me I go anywhere, do my homework and enjoy. If I wait for real warming up I'd miss most the world. Good luck in your travels.
With that mindset one might not stray far from the US and Europe in their life time. You read far too much into things, where I agree on the history, culture, etc. one must also immerse themselves....of course not ignorantly, one does need to do some homework on culture, customs, language, money and that whole ball of wax. But to say start with UK thats a bit light and far to overreaching to the "get used to foreign cultures" routine. What's your most exotic place you've travelled? Did you get some warm up exercises? Me I go anywhere, do my homework and enjoy. If I wait for real warming up I'd miss most the world. Good luck in your travels.
Dec 27th, 2004, 05:15 PM
#33
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With that mindset one might not stray far from the US and Europe in their life time. <font color="blue">True. And many don't, because the prospect is simply too daunting. I try to encourage them ("impart courage"
by minimizing the discomfort <i>in their minds</i>.</font>
You read far too much into things, where I agree on the history, culture, etc. one must also immerse themselves....of course not ignorantly, one does need to do some homework on culture, customs, language, money and that whole ball of wax. <font color="blue">True. But we aren't talking about you or me.</font>
But to say start with UK thats a bit light and far to overreaching to the "get used to foreign cultures" routine. <font color="blue">If you carefully re-read what I wrote, you may find that what I said was that "culture shock <i>in addition to language</i>" is a problem to some, and going to a place where the language issue is factored out serves as a kind of inoculation against <u>further</u> disorientation when the language issue is factored back in. In other words, if you're used to the idea of assimilating a culture, the only thing you have to deal with is the language. And, as I ALSO said, I was fluent in French the first time I went to Paris, so I fortunately only had the customs and attitudes ("culture shock shock," if you will) to deal with.</font>
What's your most exotic place you've travelled? <font color="blue">A tie. Tokyo and Taipei. (Bucharest was a close second.) I worked for TWA for six years, Flying Tigers for two, and American for three - all the time a bachelor, and nearly every week on a plane bound somewhere "exotic." How is this relevant?</font>
Did you get some warm up exercises? <font color="blue">No. Why should I? I'm used to it.</font>
Me I go anywhere, do my homework and enjoy. <font color="blue">So do I. Been doing it since 1963. But again: this isn't about us.</font>
If I wait for real warming up I'd miss most the world. <font color="blue">As I also said, the warmup is only to offset that disorientation the <u>first</u> time, for <u>some</u>. It is my observation that, like getting a cowpox vaccination to protect against smallpox, acclimating to culture in a language-friendly country makes the process easier from then on.</font>
Good luck in your travels. <font color="blue">Good luck in your reading comprehension.</font>
by minimizing the discomfort <i>in their minds</i>.</font>You read far too much into things, where I agree on the history, culture, etc. one must also immerse themselves....of course not ignorantly, one does need to do some homework on culture, customs, language, money and that whole ball of wax. <font color="blue">True. But we aren't talking about you or me.</font>
But to say start with UK thats a bit light and far to overreaching to the "get used to foreign cultures" routine. <font color="blue">If you carefully re-read what I wrote, you may find that what I said was that "culture shock <i>in addition to language</i>" is a problem to some, and going to a place where the language issue is factored out serves as a kind of inoculation against <u>further</u> disorientation when the language issue is factored back in. In other words, if you're used to the idea of assimilating a culture, the only thing you have to deal with is the language. And, as I ALSO said, I was fluent in French the first time I went to Paris, so I fortunately only had the customs and attitudes ("culture shock shock," if you will) to deal with.</font>
What's your most exotic place you've travelled? <font color="blue">A tie. Tokyo and Taipei. (Bucharest was a close second.) I worked for TWA for six years, Flying Tigers for two, and American for three - all the time a bachelor, and nearly every week on a plane bound somewhere "exotic." How is this relevant?</font>
Did you get some warm up exercises? <font color="blue">No. Why should I? I'm used to it.</font>
Me I go anywhere, do my homework and enjoy. <font color="blue">So do I. Been doing it since 1963. But again: this isn't about us.</font>
If I wait for real warming up I'd miss most the world. <font color="blue">As I also said, the warmup is only to offset that disorientation the <u>first</u> time, for <u>some</u>. It is my observation that, like getting a cowpox vaccination to protect against smallpox, acclimating to culture in a language-friendly country makes the process easier from then on.</font>
Good luck in your travels. <font color="blue">Good luck in your reading comprehension.</font>
Dec 27th, 2004, 06:38 PM
#34
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Just wanted to add that my 2 teenage boys have been to Switzerland, Paris, northern Italy, and London. Their favorite -- hands down, is London. We have also found that in traveling with kids or teens that they (and we) do best if we pick one spot as a home base and take day trips from there. Also, it's even better if you rent an apartment, so it really feels like a home base (plus there's a little kitchen for snacks, drinks, breakfasts, usually 2 bathrooms, washer/dryer, etc.)
In London they liked the British Museum (and these are not museum-loving teens), the London Eye, the Tower of London, the Globe Theatre for Romeo & Juliet, and taking a tour of a football (soccer). stadium,
We also like to mix up big city, followed by smaller village. So maybe a week in London and 3 days in York. Remember, there's no way you can see everything in one trip. Figure out what everyone is interested in and focus on maybe 2 cities tops. Then follow with a trip to another city next time.
Susan
In London they liked the British Museum (and these are not museum-loving teens), the London Eye, the Tower of London, the Globe Theatre for Romeo & Juliet, and taking a tour of a football (soccer). stadium,
We also like to mix up big city, followed by smaller village. So maybe a week in London and 3 days in York. Remember, there's no way you can see everything in one trip. Figure out what everyone is interested in and focus on maybe 2 cities tops. Then follow with a trip to another city next time.
Susan
Dec 27th, 2004, 06:40 PM
#35
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It's not recommending London/Paris that I mind.
But I'd rather not make ANY recommendation, if I can't ask three (or better, twenty) questions that help me understand the traveler's motivations to want to go to Europe at all. Likewise, when someone who posts here DOES indicate some possible destinations (like traveler04 did here: Paris, Luxembourg, Spain) - - it seems particularly like a "numb mantra" to suggest London.
For all I know, wliwl and family are sixth-generation Mexican-Americans living in Laredo, or Nogales, and Madrid makes a MUCH more logical "first destination".
Would I "first" recommend London to the Lars Olafsen family from Minnesota? or to the Arnold Schwarzenegger family of Sacramento?
I think that ANY recommendation begins with understanding their vision. Recommending London, especially on THIS thread - - based (as far as I can tell) almost purely on the age of the son - - makes no sense to me.
But I'd rather not make ANY recommendation, if I can't ask three (or better, twenty) questions that help me understand the traveler's motivations to want to go to Europe at all. Likewise, when someone who posts here DOES indicate some possible destinations (like traveler04 did here: Paris, Luxembourg, Spain) - - it seems particularly like a "numb mantra" to suggest London.
For all I know, wliwl and family are sixth-generation Mexican-Americans living in Laredo, or Nogales, and Madrid makes a MUCH more logical "first destination".
Would I "first" recommend London to the Lars Olafsen family from Minnesota? or to the Arnold Schwarzenegger family of Sacramento?
I think that ANY recommendation begins with understanding their vision. Recommending London, especially on THIS thread - - based (as far as I can tell) almost purely on the age of the son - - makes no sense to me.
Dec 28th, 2004, 05:12 AM
#36
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Rex - I didn't mean for my suggestion of London and Paris to turn into a free for all. It was just that - a suggestion. Nor was I dumbing down or reciting a "numb mantra". After a life of traveling to Europe, Asia, North and South America, London and Paris remain the two most fascinating cities I have visited. If you have better suggestions, make them but don't spend so much time endeavoring to prove how much more well-travelled and smarter you are than others.
Dec 28th, 2004, 05:54 AM
#37
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And if arrogance or "showing off" is what came across, then I failed, and I apologize.
I endeavor not to come across as smarter, nor more well-traveled than anyone here. But I am convinced that seeking information and listening to what the person has to say (still NEEDS to say, in many cases) is where one begins with good advising here .
I endeavor not to come across as smarter, nor more well-traveled than anyone here. But I am convinced that seeking information and listening to what the person has to say (still NEEDS to say, in many cases) is where one begins with good advising here .
Dec 28th, 2004, 06:52 AM
#38
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rex may be stretching the point a bit
(I don't think the Schwarzeneggers need our recommendations)but I do think he has a good point.
Almost any given topic here, whether it's the city of Venice, or what to wear in Paris, or whether or not to tip waiters, brings forth a wide range of opinions. Simple majority opinion doesn't mean that a particular person and his/her family will indeed enjoy London or end up preferring independent travel over a nice organized tour. Some will want to first try a non-threatening place where the language is the same as their own; others want to plunge right in and go wherever their fancy takes them.
In this case however, the original poster (remember wliwl?) provided a good deal of information: the adults have traveled before, the teenagers are cooperative, they enjoy museums, they like to walk around, they are planning a trip of 9-12 days, etc.
That's a lot more information than we usually get, and based on that, London and Paris (and other places as well) seem to me to be perfectly reasonable suggestions. In other cases where a request is vague--'It's my first trip to Europe, where should I go?", some follow up questions are really necessary if we're going to make any sense at all.
In this posting, quite a lot of parameters were provided.
(I don't think the Schwarzeneggers need our recommendations)but I do think he has a good point.
Almost any given topic here, whether it's the city of Venice, or what to wear in Paris, or whether or not to tip waiters, brings forth a wide range of opinions. Simple majority opinion doesn't mean that a particular person and his/her family will indeed enjoy London or end up preferring independent travel over a nice organized tour. Some will want to first try a non-threatening place where the language is the same as their own; others want to plunge right in and go wherever their fancy takes them.
In this case however, the original poster (remember wliwl?) provided a good deal of information: the adults have traveled before, the teenagers are cooperative, they enjoy museums, they like to walk around, they are planning a trip of 9-12 days, etc.
That's a lot more information than we usually get, and based on that, London and Paris (and other places as well) seem to me to be perfectly reasonable suggestions. In other cases where a request is vague--'It's my first trip to Europe, where should I go?", some follow up questions are really necessary if we're going to make any sense at all.
In this posting, quite a lot of parameters were provided.
Dec 29th, 2004, 10:02 AM
#40
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Wowo -thanks for the help everybody! I have a lot to think about, and I am thankful for everybody's ideas. Sounds like we will do cities instead of three for sure.
One stupid question - What the heck is an "open jaw" flight??? Since I always fly under the influence of valium am I always on one?
One stupid question - What the heck is an "open jaw" flight??? Since I always fly under the influence of valium am I always on one?
