vibhav

We are looking for help for our itinerary for 15 days from May 12- May 27 ... We are flying in and out of Frankfurt ... We had visited Munich and south of Munich two years back for 2 days, so have been to Mittenwald, Fussen, Mad Ludwig's castles... We have also been to the Dolomites but want to go back again to explore the regions we were not able to last time ...

We want to look at the Rhine and Mosel river valleys and the Blackforest this time ... trying to make a circular trip from Frankfurt to Rhine/Mosel Valley, onto Black forest, onto a quick stop in Appenzell Switzerland, onto Dolomites, stop at Rothernburg on way back to Frankfurt ...We will have rented a car and would like to drive everywhere ...

We are a family of 4 adults and one child (6 years) ... We are looking for scenic drives, quaint charming towns and villages, picturesque lakes and mountains... We are essentially charm buffs looking for pretty spots ... My husband is a photographer so always looking for off the beaten path scenic spots ...

Here is the itinerary first draft ... Need help to sanity check ... Also, need some suggestions on which towns to stay in ...

Day 1 -- Drive from Frankfurt to Rhine/ Mosel Valley. Stay Overnight in Bacharach/ St Goar/ Cochem
Day 2 - Rhine/ Mosel Valley
Day 3 - Rhine/ Mosel Valley
Day 4 - Rhine/ Mosel Valley
Day 5 - Drive to Black forest. Stay overnight in Baden Baden/ Freiburg
Day 6 - Black Forest
Day 7 - Black Forest
Day 8 - Drive to Appenzell, switzerland. Lake Konstanz on the way. Overnight in Appenzell
Day 9 - Appenzell
Day 10 - Drive to Cortina in Dolomites Italy. Overnight Cortina
Day 11 - Dolomites
Day 12 - Dolomites
Day 13 - Dolomites
Day 14 - Drive to Rothernburg on der tauber. Overnight Rotherburg
Day 15 - Rothenburg
Day 16 - Flight from Frankfurt

Before we start filling in the details of sightseeing within each region, need help to determine if we have too many/ too less days in each region ... Also

- Which is the best home base for Rhine Valley/ Mosel Valley? we would like to cruise on these rvivers, do some easy flat bike rides in this area and see some of the best castles in this region. Would prefer to have just one home base to minimize movement yet be able to make it to all the sights ...
- Which is the best home base for Black Forest? Definitely interested in a bath experience... Plus want to explore some scenic drives and pretty towns ... Baden- Baden or Freiburg or Staufen? which one is a good base?
- Any feedback on Appenzell and the Lake constance region? We just added it since Appenzell had come on our radar during our Swiss trip, but we had focused on the Berner Oberland region at that time ...
- How is the drive from Appenzell to Innsbruck? Seems like a pretty drive through the Alps but would want confirmation from the fodorites ...

Many more questions to follow, but need some nuts and bolts of the itinerary decided first ... Looking forward to seeing the fodorites tear this apart !!

zeppole

Others may disagree, but I didn't find Cortina d'Ampezzo "charming", although the surrounding mountains are of course stunning. I did find some of the towns in the Badia charming, so I would suggest focusing on a base between Brunico and Corvara.

zeppole

PS: I've heard San Cassiano is charming, and in the spring, rather down to earth (at other times of the year, it's posh):

http://gourmettraveller.com.au/san-cassiano-italy.htm

vibhav

Thanks a lot Zeppole ... Will definitely keep that in mind when finding a base in Dolomites ... We are definitely open to any base in that region, we were in the Alp Di Siusi region last time based out of St Cristina ... Will look into Brunico, Covara and San Cassiano this time ...

zeppole

You will surely want to get south of Brunico, and into the Badia itself.

pja1

Hi,

For the Dolomites, I'd highly recommend staying in the Alta Badia. We stayed twice in La Villa at the Ciasa Montanara. LOVE it there. Personally, we didn't find Cortina "charming". Brunico's old town is nice, but still not in the Dolomites and not too convenient to the Dolomite passes, etc.

www.montanara.it

www.worldisround.com/articles/355539/index.html

www.worldisround.com/articles/324504/index.html

For the drive from Appenzell to the Dolomites, I'd highly recommend going through the Val Venosta/Vinschgau. Head south at Landeck, Austria, to Nauders then over the Reschen Pass into the Vinschgau. From here you'd head to Meran/Merano and then Bozen/Bolzano into the Dolomites. The Val Venosta/Vinschgau is worth at least a night or two. One of our favorite castles is located here, Castel Coira/Castle Churburg. We stayed at the Panorama Hotel in Mals/Malles. Beautiful place. Plenty of castles, etc. to see in the Vinschgau.

www.biohotel-panorama.it

Castel Coira/Churburg
www.castelcoira.com
http://www.suedtirolerland.it/en/hig...tel-coira.html

Castle Kastelbell
www.schloss-kastelbell.com/de/das-schloss.html
www.etsch-radweg.com/kastelbell-castle.html

Marienberg Abby
www.marienberg.it
http://www.suedtirolerland.it/en/hig...ine-abbey.html

Glurns/Glorenza
(We had a view of this walled town from our balcony at the Hotel Panorama).
http://www.suedtirolerland.it/en/sou...osta/glorenza/
http://www.ferienregion-obervinschga...rts/glurns.php

Castel Juval
http://www.suedtirolerland.it/en/hig...juval-mmm.html
http://www.messner-mountain-museum.i...5,first,1.html

Castle Tirolo
www.schlosstirol.it/content.php?lang=2

Closter St. Johann/Convent St. John
(This is just over the Italian/Swiss border. We needed to show our passports at the border).
www.muestair.ch

We also liked walking in the town of Silandro's pedestrian zone. Pretty, nice town.
http://www.suedtirolerland.it/en/sou...s/val-venosta/

Just some idea's and thoughts.

Paul

vibhav

Thanks a lot Paul for the detailed response ... Definitely love the feedback around the Dolomites region ...Will definitely look into including the Val Venosta region if we can squeeze it in ... It looks gorgeous in the pictures and amazing castles too ...When we were driving over Brenner pass, and looked over that side, we definitely were wondering how pretty it would be there ... Unfortunately it is quite the distance from Badia/ Cortina and we are trying to minimize our one night breaks ... Will definitely keep it in our list of things to add if we free up a day or so ...

We are not set on staying in Cortina... Just want to stay in that general area as we had covered the Val Gardena, the 4 passes, and Alp Di Siusi region last time ... This time we want to cover Missurina, Tre Cime, Passo Giau, Passo Rolle, Lago Llandro, Marmolada ... So for that part of the Dolomites, staying somewhere near Cortina might be best suited ... Any suggestions for best place to stay in that region will be very welcome ...

Any feedback on the German portion of the itinerary and good bases for Rhine/ Mosel Valley and Black Forest?

pja1

Hi again,

I'd still go with the Alta Badia for most sights in the Dolomites. La Villa, for instance, is less than an hour from Cortina. It's close to the Falzarego and Giau Passes. Seems the Marmoloda and Passo Rolle are a good distance from Cortina and the Alta Badia. Maybe Alleghe or someplace in that area may be better to base for those two.

For the Mosel, we liked Cochem. We stayed 4 nights across the river from Cochem in Valwig at the Hotel Weinhaus Rebenhof.

www.hotel-rebenhof.com

Hope this helps.

Paul

Steve_James

Hi Vibhav - For your itinerary I'd second Paul's recommendation of staying in the Alta Val Badia (- instead of Cortina). San Cassiano or La Villa would be good choices IMO ...

Have you got Lago di Braies on your list? Probably the most beautiful lake in Italy
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8810882...65598152/show/

Steve

vibhav

Thanks a lot Paul and Steve ... Will definitely go with the Alta Badia suggestion... And yes, we have Lago di Braes on our list , just forgot to mention... Thank for pointing it out so we would not forget...

For the Rhine/Mosel Valley, we are also zeroing in on Cochem... Was it a convenient base for the sights in that region? Also, are 3.5 days/ 4 nights a good time for that region? What would you say are highlights?

Same questions for Black Forest - recommendations on a good home base and key highlights...

Russ

Rhine/Mosel: Cochem is a great place, whether you stay there or visit during the day. I'd probably suggest staying on the Rhine, either in Boppard or St. Goar, since you're a bit closer there to the bulk of the attractions - Marksburg Castle in Braubach and Rheinfels Castle in St. Goar, the towns of Linz (north of Koblenz) Oberwesel, Boppard and Bacharach (all 3 south of Koblenz), with their old-world ambience and wineries and Boppard's chairlift ride make up the bulk of the sights there. The Rhine cruise is also on the Rhine, of course - it'll take you past dozens of castles between Bingen and Braubach (a good place to end your cruise since Marksburg Castle is there.) www.marksburg.de

We stayed here a couple years ago in the comfortable Rhine View apt. - great little place and great host (Herr Huppertz):

http://www.loreley-apartments.de/die_4_wohnungen_en.php

There were bikes available for our use in the downstairs storage room.

There are plenty of other apartments in St. Goar too:

http://www.st-goar.de/586-1-fewos.html

The Ferienwohnung (vacation apt.) Burch and Ferienwohnung Geissler (I've stayed in one of theirs too) on the above list are located in the heart of St. Goar, convenient to all.

Daytrips to Cochem and to Burg Eltz are possible from St. Goar as well. I'd be sure to catch the falconry show at Reichsburg Castle in Cochem even if you don't tour the castle.

www.burg-eltz.de
www.falknerei-reichsburg-cochem.de/fotobuch.htm

Boppard is larger and also a very nice place; you'll find apartments there as well:

http://www.boppard.de/index.php?id=8&L=1

I'll have some comments for you later on the Black Forest; suffice it to say for now that neither Freiburg or Baden-Baden are really what anyone thinks of when they think of the Black Forest. Have a look at some of the towns and attractions that dot the Black Forest railway, which crisscrosses the highest part of the BF:

http://www.black-forest-travel.com/p...t-railway.html

pja1

Hi,

We spent 4 nights on the Mosel and felt it was just right. The Mosel seemed a bit more laid back or quieter, than the Rhine. Just an opinion from someone who spent only a morning and afternoon along the Rhine. We loved Cochem and would stay there again. To be more accurate, we stayed across the river in Valwig, but we spent so much time in and around Cochem, we considered it our base. From here we visited Trier, Bernkastel, Burg Eltz and spent some time in Beilstein and Zell. Highlights for us were Burg Eltz and then some of the Roman ruins and Cathedral in Trier and taking walks along the river. Marksburg castle along the Rhine was another "must see" highlight on our trip. Bernkastel reminded us a little of Cochem. Not that that's a bad thing at all.

www.trier-info.de/english/sights-in-trier

Paul

Russ

Agree w/Paul that Cochem is great. You might include Trier if you're into Roman history, but it sounds like the focus of your trip is more nature-focused. If you do visit Trier, you'd be spreading out your area of travel a bit, and Cochem might make more sense as a base town.

Black Forest: It's mostly about the villages, the great outdoors, and more traditional rural life. If you've looked at Rick Steves' Germany guidebook, you'd think the only places worth staying in were Baden-Baden, Freiburg, and Staufen (a small village of little interest on the periphery.) The best way to get a feel for the place and to gather ideas is probably to take a look at some of the trip reports at Bavaria Ben's site, many of which include Black Forest destinations, like the one below (this site is similarly excellent for Rhine/Mosel impressions):

http://www.bensbauernhof.com/randringermany.html

Look at the BF accommodations pages too:
http://www.bensbauernhof.com/accommo...hwarzwald.html

If you're looking for "quaint charming towns and villages, picturesque lakes and mountains,", then I would shy away from Freiburg and Baden-Baden and would look into places like Gengenbach (old walled town with towers, cobblestones, half-timbered buildings, a bit like Rothenburg without the hypertourism) and villages like Schiltach, and Gutach which lie deeper in the BF. All are included on Ben's pages. And Baden-Baden isn't the only spa town; Bad Peterstal (featured on Ben's pages above too) also has spa facilities and could be a good alternative to the big-city bustle and prices of Baden-Baden. See slide show to get an impression:

http://www.badenpage.de/en/cities-vi...ergalerie.html

Gengenbach: http://www.panoramio.com/photo/877263

Schiltach: http://res001.gps-tour.info/redx/too...IMG_0090_2.JPG

Vogtsbauernhof (open air museum) in Gutach: http://en.vogtsbauernhof.org/

Russ

I'm sure you have good reasons for renting a car, and it is conventional wisdom that the car is cheaper with a large group. But a car large enough car for the 5 of you will not be cheap, and in Germany, the conventional wisdom is wrong. Because train travel is so well developed and efficient here - and completely FREE in the Black Forest (if you stay in the villages) and incredibly cheap in the Rhine/Mosel area, you might consider postponing your rental until Freiburg or Basel when you leave Germany.

Total train costs for 5:
FRA - Rhine/Mosel: 40€
3-day pass for Rhine/Mosel: 40€
Trip from Rhine/Mosel to Black Forest: 60€
All BF travel: free
http://www.blackforest-tourism.com/konus
Total: 140€

Car: probably about 1,000 km and 140€ - the same amount just for gas. And I think a VW Touran goes for close to $400/week w/o insurance.

If you're interested I'll point you to the information you'll need.

vibhav

Thanks a lot Paul and Russ for the amazing amount of information and feedback... Apologies for the very late reply but I had to put the trip research on hold for personal reasons... Now I am back and scrambling to finalize itinerary and get bookings done... Have been looking for places to stay in the RHine/Mosel region and in Gegenbach... Have sent out some inquiries using your suggested places above... Now looking to finalize the Italian part of the trip in Stelvio and Dolomites...

Will reply in detail to your posts above in the next couople of days as we finalize more things...

Quick question - Will the passes in Stelvio and Dolomiti be open around the time frame of 19 May - 24th May? We are primarily looking at a driving vacation with minimal hiking since our parents cannot hike much...

Also, Paul, is 2 nights and one day enough for Stelvio National Park? One day is enough to go into the park and enjoy the drives/ lakes by car?

Ingo

Last year Passo Stelvio road opened 28 May. I doubt it's going to be earlier this year.

jgwagner4

I am a huge fan of Ferienwohnung (Vacation Rental Apartments). These usually give you multiple rooms with full kitchen facilities for less than you would spend on a traditional hotel or B&B. Having the full kitchen means you can save money by cooking some meals yourself and I enjoy the experience of shopping at local grocery stores and bakeries.

One we have stayed in is above the town of Bacharach, and is owned by a very nice family.

http://www.ferienwohnung-rheinhoehe....ch/index_e.htm

If you check out my travelogues you will see it talked about in my last two trips to Germany.

pja1

Hi,

What route are you looking at that will take you via the Stelvio Pass and Park? While the Stelvio may or may not be open, the Dolomite passes such as the Gardena, Sella, etc. will be open. Just wondering, as your plan had said you were heading to the Dolomites. While the Stelvio area is in the Südtirol area of Italy, it is not the "Dolomites". The Dolomites (the limestone towers that one associates with the Dolomites) are more or less between Ortisei (Val Gardena) and Cortina d'Ampezzo.

Paul

vibhav

Paul... We are planning to drive from Gegenbach in Black forest and then go stop in the Stelvio region for 2 nights... this was based on your suggestion given above of the the Val Venosta/ Vinschgau region being very pretty on the way to the Dolomites... After that we will head to the Dolomites... Since we are planning to stay in that Val Venosta region (either Malle or someplace else) for two nights, that is why we were wondering if we can drive to the Stelvio pass and if it is worth it for the one full day we will be in that region...

Good to hear, Paul, that Gardena, sella etc will be open... Would you happen to know if Passo Giau will be open?

Thanks Ingo... That was our fear about the Stelvio pass road not being open at our times... Are there any other drives or lakes or anything else that we can spend our time for that one full day?

jgwagner4, thanks! That is exactly what we are looking for ... Apartment rentals for our entire trip... will definitely look into the link you sent... We might be close to finalizing one apartment in Beilstein... Will look into this prior...

pja1

Hi again,

Oh, ok. I didn't understand the itinerary. We loved our stay in the Vinschgau/Val Venosta. Even if you don't drive the Stelvio Pass, there are so many castles, convents, monestaries, etc. plus the old walled town of Glurns/Glorenza that you couldn't see it all in a day. Castel Coira/Churburg Castle is a "must see" in my opinion. Schloss Kastelbell is another very good castle to visit. While not large or "touristy", Glurns/Glorenza was an interesting "look back in time" for me. Authentic, preserved medieval walled town. We can highly recommend the Panorama Hotel in Malles/Mals. Sorry if I'm repeating myself.

The Giua Pass will be open. Wait untill you get to the top. It's stunning. Even more so, in my opinion, is the entire drive along the Gardena Pass. It's hard to "rate" them, as they're all spectacular drives.

This is an interesting website for the passes in the Dolomites and throughout the Alps.

www.alpineroads.com/dolomites.php

Paul