Hi again,

yes, of course - i got my le and la mixed up.

but as michel Thomas says, the aim is to get the ball over the net.

Have you seen his language courses? there's french one, as well as german, italian and spanish. not sure whwn you are going, but even a few tapes might help give you a bit of confidence.

regards, ann

The more I read this thread the easier it is to understand why people are intimidated by French food or ordering in a French restaurant.

Here we are with people who speak a little to a lot of French all correcting each other on gender and the proper phrasing. Is it any wonder a person who speaks little or no French doesn't want to do so in a restaurant? Is it any wonder that after a nice "Bonjour" and perhaps a "parlez vous Anglais, si vous plais?" he very well may switch to ordering in English rather than face the constant correcting of his poor French?

I am picky also--or so says my sister, who is not as picky as I am. I prefer to say that my tastes are not adventurous. My defence is that my culinary tastes were formed by my childhood in the 40's and 50's in North Dakota and Montana.

When we were in Tours, I was going to order veal, but there was another word attached to "veau," so I looked up the word, "rognons," I think it was, in my handy Marlings Menu Master. "Rognons" means kidneys. I don't eat organ meat, so I found something else. Saved by the Menu Master!

In Honfleur, I ordered skate, not doing that skate was seafood but not fish. It seems to be a member of the ray family. It was quite tasty, but I didn't like the texture AT ALL. I remember that meal, though, because of the dessert--delicious!

A hint that has worked for me in the past when I have needed to brush up on my language skills - "practice" ordering in a French restaurant by finding menus on the web. Many restaurants cited here in Fodor's and in travel books have web sites and have at least a sample menu.

Take a look and practice translating. What dishes would you have selecetd had you been there?

Then either use your menu translation book or get the web page translated into English by copying and pasting the menu URL into AltaVista's Babel translation tool. Either way, you won't get a perfect translation but you should be able to tell whay would have been acceptable to you and what would not.

I agree with robjame - be a little adventurous. Use your trip abroad to broaden your mind as well as your palate. You may be surprised at what you taste -- and enjoy! Once I accidentally ordered ris de veau (sweetbreads) thinking I was getting something else. They were delicious! The point is, my own limited experience and predjudice against organ meats would have kept me from what was a great meal.

Maybe order one dish each day that takes you beyond what you already know - ??

Enjoy your trip.

Good points, Pegontheroad, and that's one reason I love going to foreign markets, even when not buying things for cooking. Once you've looked at a bin of uncooked veal kidneys, or a pile of calf's brains with the accompanying sign in the local language, you aren't so likely to forget those words the next time you look at a menu. I remember things better by sight than by sound, so I've gained a pretty fair ability to read and understand menus in many languages, despite the fact I wouldn't be able to properly pronounce half of it.

I agree with NeoPatrick about the difficulty with the languages. This is exactly why I carry my little menu translator book! You could carry around a stack of papers, including all of the language tips on this post, or you could carry a pocket size book to use when you need it.

I speak a little French, and get more comfortable with the written words as my trips progress but I still like to have an idea of what I am ordering in a restaurant. There are some foods that I don't care to eat, and I don't want to order a plate of one of these and not eat it. That is not acceptable to me on several levels - the cost of the food and insulting the cook are two of them. Been there, done that and don't want to do it again.

I do try several new foods on every trip. And I will occasionally eat foods I have not previously liked to see if my tastes have changed or reinforce that I don't like it.

Have a fun time in Paris - make a game of the food. I do things like try to find the best macarons - to do that I must sample some everyday...

I used to always carry a little Berlitz food guide, but since then I've decided the most important tool for ordering in Europe in a good index finger.

a simple 'vin blanc' or 'demi vin blanc svp' produces positive results in my limited experience.

I think what you really need isn't a list of French words for the foods you like, but a list of traps, the false friends that will get you an unwanted surprise, like the veal kidneys mentioned above. Of course, I love veal kidneys, but I also read French.

On my first trip abroad, many decades ago, with only a year of high school French in my head, we were in a Paris restaurant (La Pagode, I believe). This was on a guided tour, but for this meal we were on our own. The tourmate next to me played it safe, as we depended on the English menu translation, as he ordered "American Steak," while I was more adventurous and ordered "Tartar Steak." I mean, I had this idea of Taras Bulba eating beef with exotic Tartar seasonings. Who knew how far off we both were.

The waiter brought a steak with a sunny side up egg on top. "That's yours, I guess" laughed the tourmate, in error as it turned out. Then I got the raw hamburger.

I am loving all the responses to this post, and am actually looking very forward to eating in France now!! I wish I could respond to each one of you personally, as you've all had some wonderful tips and pointers. Thank you, thank you.

Two questions, though:

1) Does it matter if I leave off the "le" and "la"? I don't think there is any way that I will ever figure out that particular part of the French language, when there is so much else to learn in the short time before I go! (I have NO background in French, other than the few words/phrases I've learned/learning for this trip)

2) No one answered my question about the baby octopus head - was I supposed to eat it, or just all the good stuff around it (ie: tentacles)?

I had to laugh at the skate story. I know that if I saw "skate" on a menu, I would never order it. (after fishing in Alaska and pulling a few up and seeing them up close and personal). But I know that it is probably something I would like, as I love all things seafood!

I am definitely feeling a bit more adventurous. Thank you all again for your help, encouragement, and votes of confidence!

<<In Honfleur, I ordered skate, not doing that skate was seafood but not fish.>>

Hi Peg - I am not sure what your distinction is between fish and seafood, but skate is a fish.

Interestingly, it is often served to people who don't like fish because of its meaty, though somewhat stringy, texture.

I love skate! I first had it at a wonderful fish & chip shop in Scotland.

> 1) Does it matter if I leave off the "le" and "la"? I don't think there is any way that I will ever figure out that particular part of the French language,...

Since we are talking about French spoken by a foreign tourist with no French back ground, the answer is, I'd say, No, it does not matter.

If we mentioned le/la, au/aux and de/du, etc, that's because those were written wrongly above by others. When it's written the mistakes seem just too obvious and probably, it's better to be corrected so those who read it can at least have a chance to know the correct version. When we speak, we make these mistakes all the time (unless you are French native or are close - for them these distinctions are usally automatic)but it's easier to let go when spoken than when written, like in any other language, I suspect.

> On many menus, you will see ... "vins en pichet" after the bottled proposals.

Okay, this seem more likely than vin de maison or vin de table. Thanks.

>I would't order saying "vin de table".

Nor would I. That's the lowest grade of wine.

The vin de maison will probably be a higher quality.

>...he very well may switch to ordering in English rather than face the constant correcting of his poor French?<

Oh, piffle. Why let someone go around speaking incorrectly, and being laughed at, when it's so easy to show them what's right?

>I think what you really need isn't a list of French words for the foods you like, but a list of traps,

Very good advice.

If you don't like veal kidneys, perhaps "ris de veau" or "andouilletes" would be more to your liking.

Hi nb,

>Does it matter if I leave off the "le" and "la"?

Don't worry about the gender. If you say la or une instead of le or un, you will be corrected.

>the baby octopus head - was I supposed to eat it,

Yes, if it is a baby. No, if it is grown.

>I had to laugh at the skate story.

Skate wings are very good. They are very close to young veal in flavor and texture.

((I))

There are a few trick homonyms of different genders, but normally the meaning is so wildly different, that there should be no misunderstanding, i.e.

le foie = liver
la foi = faith
la fois = time (event - 'the time I went to Paris')

I don't think it has to be so complicated for someone to have to memorize or think of specific phrases for ordering wine. I don't remember every seeing vin de table or vin de maison on a menu or wine carte in France, actually (def. not vin de table). Vin de table is just a grading category, anyway, it's the lowest quality French wine as that means it doesn't pas the AOC or even vin de pays categorizations -- it can be made of anything, anywhere, basically. You may get that quality sometimes in a cafe, I suppose, if you order the wine in a glass or pitcher rather than a specific name or type in a bottle. Although in many bistros, even a glass won't be "vin de table" classification.

It's the kind you get on Air France, and some of the cheap French wine I buy in the US has that as a label (although even $10 bottles usually do not, I just checked my wine cellar last night, as I was curious).

But there isn't any reason to have to be thinking of all these phrases, just point to what you want on a menu (or wine carte). If you want the cheapest stuff, it will be obvious by the prices. Even when a restaurant or cafe has a specific label they use when you order a simple 25 cl or 50 cl carafe of wine, or a single glass, they don't call that vin de maison on the menu, that I can recall.

I confirm that it is <b>never</b> called &quot;vin de table&quot; on the menu. However, you will sometimes find a cheap wine called <b>&quot;la cuv&eacute;e du patron&quot;</b> (&quot;the boss's choice&quot;) on the menu of modest restaurants, and you will usually see &quot;vin de table&quot; on the label, more rarely &quot;vin de pays,&quot; which is the next step up.

If you read the label of a &quot;vin de table&quot; bottle, you will almost always find the charming indication &quot;vin de diff&eacute;rents pays de l'union europ&eacute;enne&quot; (wine from different countries of the EU) -- this means that it is a mixture of the cheapest bulk wines available on the market, usually from France, Spain, Italy and/or Portugal, sometimes Greece as well. Oddly enough, sometimes it isn't bad, but even if you buy the same brand at a later date, you have no guarantee that it will taste the same -- the mix will have already changed by then. Keep in mind that this sort of wine goes for less the 2&euro; a liter at the supermarket.

I confirm that it is <b>never</b> called &quot;vin de table&quot; on the menu. However, you will sometimes find a cheap wine called <b>&quot;la cuv&eacute;e du patron&quot;</b> (&quot;the boss's choice&quot;) on the menu of modest restaurants, and you will usually see &quot;vin de table&quot; on the label, more rarely &quot;vin de pays,&quot; which is the next step up.

If you read the label of a &quot;vin de table&quot; bottle, you will almost always find the charming indication &quot;vin de diff&eacute;rents pays de l'union europ&eacute;enne&quot; (wine from different countries of the EU) -- this means that it is a mixture of the cheapest bulk wines available on the market, usually from France, Spain, Italy and/or Portugal, sometimes Greece as well. Oddly enough, sometimes it isn't bad, but even if you buy the same brand at a later date, you have no guarantee that it will taste the same -- the mix will have already changed by then. Keep in mind that this sort of wine goes for less than 2&euro; a liter at the supermarket.

Re. baby octopus - I always eat the whole thing - head, tentacles etc. The inedible parts (beak, eyes, etc.) will have been removed before cooking anyway.

Assuming you live in a fairly decent sized city in the USA, I would check out a good French Restaurant to get acquainted with the food you will be eating in France--of course it will taste even better over there.

Practice with the French menus if you can in your own area of the country so you do not feel so intimated. Try to eat at family owned restaurants here in the States and NO Franchises.

Jen