mnss

I've been learning German for about a month now using a book/CD combo, getting ready for my Germany/Austria vacation next year, CAN'T WAIT !!

However, I am having serious trouble with the direct/Indirect object cases!

For examle, when vater (father) in a subject, you say Der Vater (the father), but when the father is a direct object, you say Den Vater, but when the father is an indirect object, you say Dem vater!and they all just mean "the father!" and their "einem" and "einen" are really confusing too!

So tell me, do everyday Germans on the streets use all of these? or can one just use "Der" for all musculine "the"?

Are these words used as often as "whom" is used by Americans (which is not very often!) or are they really important to learn and understand by any German speaker?

Thank you so much, DANKE SCHÖN!!

J62

To answer your 2 specific questions,

1. yes, fluent German speakers use all 3 cases in normal speach. They are not used optionally, as is whom in English

2. no, as a non-German speaker, you are not required to get this perfect, and you will be perfectly well understood even if you "mess it up"

Any effort you take to speak German, even if you just stick to simple 'subject case' sentences will be greatly appreciated.

Don't sweat it. Your bigger issue by far will be limited vocabulary, so learn what you can, be open to trying simple conversations and enjoy your vacation.

rex

Oh boy, this is a loaded question. Plenty is the sloppy grammar used by tourists and travelers. While it is difficut to encourage the ignoring of sound fundamentals of any language and its grammar, your example of "whom" is reasonably relevant. I concentrate on learning nouns, (mostly action) verbs and adjectives. I think it's effective to be (mildly) sloppy with tenses... past tense? use "gestern", "letzte woche", "letzte jahr"... it gets the idea across... future tense? "I am going to..." is an effective substitute in many languages.

Don't each of the following sentences communicate adequately?

Where is the police?
Where are the police?
Where is a police?
Where are a police?

You would get the appropriate help to any foreigner who asked you these, wouldn't you? So will they.

Writing term papers is a different matter.

Best wishes,

Rex

USNR

In my personal experience, any attempt you make to speak German with Germans will be met with courtesy, helpfulness, and an overwhelming desire on their part to one-up you by speaking English back at you. Learn a few key phrases and let the difficult grammar go.

MyriamC

Yes, German speakers do use all the cases and they do it automatically. If you learn German more in depth, you will understand that they do make sense!
Don't let this 'issue' prevent you from speaking, though.
Although my own language (Flemish-Dutch) is very similar to German (+ I had 5 years of advanced German at school) and I perfectly understand why it should be der Vater or den Vater, I often have to think twice whether I'm using the right case.

Alec

A useful device for foreign speakers of German: just drop the article - definite or indefinite. So instead of saying 'Ich gebe meinem Vater das Buch' (I give the book to my Dad), just say 'Ich gebe Vater das Buch'. Or instead of 'Das Auto meines Vaters ist sehr schnell' (my Dad's car is very fast), just say 'Vater's Auto is sehr schnell'. And if you don't know a noun's gender (der, die or das), just pluralise it, when it becomes die.

ira

Hi mn,

I suggest you read whay Mark Twain had to say about "The Awful German Language".

http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/jod/texts/twain.german.html

mnss

Thanks alot everyone!

I'll just try to learn all the different cases, but it's quite comforting to know that they would understand what I say even if my case wasn't perfect.

I don't want them whisper to each other as soon as I leave: "Jener Amerikaner ist sehr dumm!"

Wayne

Don't worry about what they say when you are gone. Just try to understand what they say while you are there. I find that it is much more difficult for me to understand native speakers than to get my message across to them in their language. It's the same in the U.S., where I have frequently observed a verbally insensitive waiter/waitress jabbering at full speed, and perhaps with a local dialect, to foreigners who ask a question. I think in that sense the Europeans in general are more sensitive to our need to understand than we are to theirs in reverse situations.

I really just wanted to point out that I would assume you have never tried to learn another language. All languages have their own peculiarities, and German isn't really any worse than the others if you understand basic rules of grammar in any language. For instance, all languages have direct and indirect objects, transitive and intransitive verbs, and other very regular rules in addition to their own peculiarities.

I had always liked languages and had done well in Latin in high school, and I found that the 2-year high school course really grounded me in learning other languages. As a result, I have been able to learn a passable amount of Italian, French, German, Russian, and Farsi---all of which begin to relate to each other a lot more than you first would think. So hang in there, continue to practice, and soon you'll want to learn another language -- and you'll find it will be much easier than the first.

Christina

I have no German tips, but do not agree that who/whom in English is "optional". It's just a lot of people don't know proper English grammer for all kinds of situations. I do agree it doesn't affect understanding, though.

I've studied Czech some, and it has cases, also. As well as Greek, if I recall, but I studied it about 15 years ago. So, as a native English speaker, I do find languages with cases (Czech has 7, more than German, I believe) much more difficult than those without (Romance languages). YOu have to learn many more variations of words, and they are not always regular--it's just a lot more to learn. I know some people refer to "cases" in English, but we don't really have true cases any more, just different forms of pronouns when subject/object. I read somewhere that very old English used to have cases, but they were dropped sometime in the Middle Ages.

I have a German friend who speaks English fluently, and she agrees English is a lot easier grammatically than German, and a much easier language to learn than some others (English verb tenses are fairly simple, for example, there aren't as many endings).

I"ve studied both French and Spanish quite a bit and they were a whole lot easier to learn for me than Czech.