Help! Also travelling with teenagers to Switzerland this summer
Jan 19th, 2005, 11:02 AM
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Help! Also travelling with teenagers to Switzerland this summer
Travelling from Paris and we want to see the swiss alps, Lucerne (where we have relatives) and on to Brackenheim, Germany where we wish to visit our former exchange student. Need help with travel times between cities and mode of transportation. We'll have 4 days to travel in Switzerland and want to end up close to Brackenheim. Should we travel by easy jet to Geneva and then by train to Lauterbrunnen or Kandersteg or rent a car from Geneva, should we travel from Paris to Lauterbrunnen or Kandersteg via train ? We're travelling this summer with 4 teenagers and want to do some alpine mountain biking-- the Murren loop sounds great - and of course Ludwig's castle and the luge! Can we do it all??? ALso, Brunig Pass sounds interesting but it looks like you must start from the other side of Switzerland like Bern. Our other choice is to fly into Dortmund and rent a car there to travel to Switzerland and then back to Germany. This would allow us to rent the car in the country we'll be returning to but I don't know how Also where is Kandersteg in relation to Murren and Lauterbrunnen. We found a great place to stay in Kandersteg, but it may be far from the places we really want to see. Sorry this is so long, but I need help!
Jan 20th, 2005, 03:23 AM
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Nancy, you might want to post one post with all your questions, as I see you have at least 3 other posts with questions varying from this a bit. I will provide my opinion.
1. Make use of the advice of your relatives as much as possible. They may be able to suggest places that never get mentioned on this board (Guarda in the Engadine is an example) but which are simply gorgeous. They can also suggest driving routes and cases where a train is preferable.
2. I assume you are flying into Paris from the US. From what city do you plan to fly back to the US? I would get an “open jaw” ticket and fly out of Munich or Zurich, see more below.
3. IMO, going to Brackenheim atthe end of your trip is going to add a lot of time and backtracking. Brackenheim is north of Munich by a few hours. It is at least 6 hours by car from Lauterbrunnen to Brackenheim. You might want to go to Brackenheim first from Paris, then head down to Fussen (Ludwig’s Castle) and on to Switzerland. This would save you a long drive back up through Germany. See more below.
4 As you don’t seem interested in the Geneva end of Switzerland, I would look into low-cost flights from Paris into Munich or Stuggart Germany. There are low cost airlines which fly into each. You can then rent a car or take a train to the Interlaken/Lauterbrunnen area which seems to be your prime interest, and go to Ludwig’s Castle on the way. The castle is Fussen, Germany, south of Munich. The drive/train from Munich to Fussen is less than 2 hours, and from Fussen to the Interlaken area is about is about 5 -7 hours, depending on train connections, etc.
Stuggart is farther north of Munich, and is close to Brackenheim, and flying from Paris to Stuggart would be a good option if you go to Brachenheim first.
Dortmand is even further north and is north of Brackenheim, but you could drive/train to Brackenheim from Dortmand (I think 3-4 hours) and then go on down through Germany to Switzerland.
You could also fly from Paris to Zurich. There a not a lot of discount airlines which fly into Zurich. But do look. The drive to Interlaken is about 2.5 hours. It would not be convenient to go to Ludwig’s castle first.
Flying into Geneva will only add time to your trip, as it is about 4 hours by train or car to the Interlaken area from Geneva, and not on the way to Ludwig’s Castle at all.
A mother load of info on cheap flights can be found at http://www.discountairfares.com/lcosteur.htm
and http://www.thissen.net/lowcost.html
The website for Swiss Rail is rail.ch and for German Rail is bahn.de.(click on “Int Guests” for English) Both sites will provide info on trains in other countries in Europe.
5. It is generally always cheaper to rent and drop off a car in the same country in which you rented it. Comapre prices and drop off charges. I would keep car rental to a minimum as (i) gas is US$4.50 a gallon, (ii) parking is hard to find and expensive in most towns and villages and is generally not provided by hotels or if provided, is not free, (iii) traffic can be quite bad in the summer, esp on Fridays and Mondays, and (iv) some of the driving is just not that scenic and a bit of a grind,(v) the train and bus transport system in Germany and Switzerland is excellent, (vi) there are cheap intra-Europe carriers that are much cheaper than driving long distances, even for a family. I would make plans to use a train and fly as much as you can.
6. With only 4 days in Switzerland, I would limit time in Lucerne. I see you have relatives there, but perhaps you can get them to go with you to the mountians, rather than looking at them from accross the lake.
7. Kanderstag is not nearly as pretty a valley, IMO, as the Lauterbrunnen/Jungfrau valley. Kandersteg is worth a day trip, specifically to hike the Ochensee. Kandersteg is in the valley next to Lauterbrunnen and is about a half hour by car or a bit longer by train or bus.
8. The Brunig Pass is quite low (it is not above the treeline) and I would not go out of my way to drive it. It is on the way from Zurich to the Interlaken/Lauterbrunnen area, to go from Bern just to drive it would be very out of the way. Passes in the Interlaken/Lauterbrunnen area to consider driving would be the Grimsel and the Susten, those are quite high (above the treeline) and fun. You can take public Post Buses over both passes and really enjoy the ride.
A good map of Switzerland and the other countries you are considering would be very helpful to you. A very helpful website for driving directions and estimated driving times is mapquest.com, and click on Europe.
1. Make use of the advice of your relatives as much as possible. They may be able to suggest places that never get mentioned on this board (Guarda in the Engadine is an example) but which are simply gorgeous. They can also suggest driving routes and cases where a train is preferable.
2. I assume you are flying into Paris from the US. From what city do you plan to fly back to the US? I would get an “open jaw” ticket and fly out of Munich or Zurich, see more below.
3. IMO, going to Brackenheim atthe end of your trip is going to add a lot of time and backtracking. Brackenheim is north of Munich by a few hours. It is at least 6 hours by car from Lauterbrunnen to Brackenheim. You might want to go to Brackenheim first from Paris, then head down to Fussen (Ludwig’s Castle) and on to Switzerland. This would save you a long drive back up through Germany. See more below.
4 As you don’t seem interested in the Geneva end of Switzerland, I would look into low-cost flights from Paris into Munich or Stuggart Germany. There are low cost airlines which fly into each. You can then rent a car or take a train to the Interlaken/Lauterbrunnen area which seems to be your prime interest, and go to Ludwig’s Castle on the way. The castle is Fussen, Germany, south of Munich. The drive/train from Munich to Fussen is less than 2 hours, and from Fussen to the Interlaken area is about is about 5 -7 hours, depending on train connections, etc.
Stuggart is farther north of Munich, and is close to Brackenheim, and flying from Paris to Stuggart would be a good option if you go to Brachenheim first.
Dortmand is even further north and is north of Brackenheim, but you could drive/train to Brackenheim from Dortmand (I think 3-4 hours) and then go on down through Germany to Switzerland.
You could also fly from Paris to Zurich. There a not a lot of discount airlines which fly into Zurich. But do look. The drive to Interlaken is about 2.5 hours. It would not be convenient to go to Ludwig’s castle first.
Flying into Geneva will only add time to your trip, as it is about 4 hours by train or car to the Interlaken area from Geneva, and not on the way to Ludwig’s Castle at all.
A mother load of info on cheap flights can be found at http://www.discountairfares.com/lcosteur.htm
and http://www.thissen.net/lowcost.html
The website for Swiss Rail is rail.ch and for German Rail is bahn.de.(click on “Int Guests” for English) Both sites will provide info on trains in other countries in Europe.
5. It is generally always cheaper to rent and drop off a car in the same country in which you rented it. Comapre prices and drop off charges. I would keep car rental to a minimum as (i) gas is US$4.50 a gallon, (ii) parking is hard to find and expensive in most towns and villages and is generally not provided by hotels or if provided, is not free, (iii) traffic can be quite bad in the summer, esp on Fridays and Mondays, and (iv) some of the driving is just not that scenic and a bit of a grind,(v) the train and bus transport system in Germany and Switzerland is excellent, (vi) there are cheap intra-Europe carriers that are much cheaper than driving long distances, even for a family. I would make plans to use a train and fly as much as you can.
6. With only 4 days in Switzerland, I would limit time in Lucerne. I see you have relatives there, but perhaps you can get them to go with you to the mountians, rather than looking at them from accross the lake.
7. Kanderstag is not nearly as pretty a valley, IMO, as the Lauterbrunnen/Jungfrau valley. Kandersteg is worth a day trip, specifically to hike the Ochensee. Kandersteg is in the valley next to Lauterbrunnen and is about a half hour by car or a bit longer by train or bus.
8. The Brunig Pass is quite low (it is not above the treeline) and I would not go out of my way to drive it. It is on the way from Zurich to the Interlaken/Lauterbrunnen area, to go from Bern just to drive it would be very out of the way. Passes in the Interlaken/Lauterbrunnen area to consider driving would be the Grimsel and the Susten, those are quite high (above the treeline) and fun. You can take public Post Buses over both passes and really enjoy the ride.
A good map of Switzerland and the other countries you are considering would be very helpful to you. A very helpful website for driving directions and estimated driving times is mapquest.com, and click on Europe.
Jan 20th, 2005, 08:30 AM
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Wow! Thanks for all the great info! We are actually flying into Paris from London. Then, I originally was thinking we'd fly to Geneva (easyjet) and travel through Switzerland and parts of Germany via car, flying out of Frankfurt. I'd like to visit our exchange student. Perhaps we could get my exchange student and his parents to meet us at one of the larger locations rather than us travelling to Brackenheim. In any event, I'd like to visit the Alps, Lucerne, some of the castles (Ludwig's because of all I've heard and the luge), take the river cruise along the Rhine, visit Munich, and some of the great small towns in Germany. Is this unreasonable? You seem to be very knowledgable about the area and I would appreciate your insight into my itinerary. I only mentioned Kandersteg because they have a scout centre we could stay at very inexpensively for our family. Is that a good or bad choice to use as a home base and then take a couple day trips to the areas in Oberland? It seems that you advocate train travel and public transportation and feel that would be better even for a family of six? In short, which city would be best to fly into from Paris and what itinerary would you recommend given the sites we want to see? Thanks so much.
Jan 21st, 2005, 06:42 AM
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IMO your itinerary for 8 days is a bit too ambitious. Distances between the places on your itinerary are fairly good, and just getting between them with only 8 days is going to take a chunk of time out of your itinerary and require driving or training a few hours each day or every other day, not sure that is the best way to have a relaxing family vacation. A few more thoughts:
1. Drop either the Rhine cruise or Ludwig’s castle. You can either see a lot of castles on a half day or full day Rhine tour, or a good look at one castle. You will not get the chance to see much of the inside of Ludwig’s, most of it is outside viewing. Very pretty, but you should know what to expect. I expect the luge is not an ice luge (not nearly high enough altitude), not saying it would not be enjoyable, but it may be more like a rollercoaster on rails than an ice luge.
2. I am totally underwhemed by Munich and would suggest you skip it. Most of it was bombed in WWII so there are very few charming or even interesting parts left. (Even Frankfurt has more of a charming old town.) With your brief itinerary, I would take it off the list. If you want to see a city, stop in Zurich. If you want to see great palaces and museums go to Berlin or Vienna (but please not on this trip, unless you drop Switzerland. . . )
3. I agree that if you could get your student’s family to meet you, that would be a better use of time. Perhaps they would be interested in Kandersteg/Jungfrau.
4. Using Kandersteg as a base if you can get inexpensive accommodation is not at all unreasonable. It is pretty, don’t get me wrong, just not as spectacular as the next valley over. However, it is fine to use as a base. There are several great walks in the valley, and the town itself is very small and quiet. To save time as you have a very short trip, I would use a car to get to Lauterbrunnen/Jungfrau and other areas for day trips rather than using a train or bus. Perhaps your relatives can lend you a car or come with you. (If they belong to Mobility Car Sharing, a car sharing organization for Swiss Residents, they will be able to rent a van quite cheaply or get a discount from some of the major rental companies. Check with yoru relatives.)
5. In response to your question on another post, you can rent vans through most rental agencies. Hertz, Budget and Avis all have mini-van rentals in Switzerland, and I assume they are available in Germany as well. I don’t think they have a lot of them and so they get booked early so reserve ASAP. (I am looking myself for early June when part of my family is coming over and vans are already booked.) A station wagon with a luggage rack would probably also work fine for you. Note that all the vans I have seen for rent are manual transmission.
6. Not sure what your flight time is from Frankfurt, but I assume it is before Noon as most US-bound flights depart in the morning. This would mean you either need to take an overnight train, or get to Frankfurt the night before, or leave very very early the morning of your flight to get to Frankfurt. Bear this in mind.
6. Going on your above suggestions, some itineraries which might work from Paris is:
Rhine Cruise Option
Train to Koblenz from Paris (fastest train is 6.5 hours and there seem to be departures all day; there is also an overnight train which departs at 10:30 pm and arrives at 6:30 am which would be an interesting experience for the kids I would think). Do half or full day Rhine cruise from Koblenz to Mainz or parts in between depending on how long you want to cruise and how much time you have (others may have a few as to whether there are better parts of the Rhine for castles, etc.) 1 night somewhere, or may need 2 nights depending on whether you take the day or night train from Paris.
Rent car in Mainz or train to Frankfurt Airport from Mainz (30 minutes or less) and get car. Drive past Frankfurt down to the “Romantic Road” area for 1 night, but not as far as Fussen.
On to Lucerne for 1 night, then Swiss Alps for 2-3 nights
Drive night before or take overnight train Frankfurt for return flight. (From Kandersteg fastest day train is just over 5 hours; there is also an overnight train that departs at 9:30 pm and arrives at the airport at 8 am, which should work for a US morning departure)
Ludwig’s Castle Option (would give more time in Swiss Alps)
Early morning flight to Frankfurt from Paris. Train or drive down all or part of the Romantic Road to Fussen. 1- 2 nights.
Train or drive on to Lucerne for 1 night. (-- hours from Fussen)
Kandersteg/Jungfrau for 3-4 nights (1 to 1.5 hours from Lucerne)
Drive night before or take overnight train Frankfurt for return flight.
I would think there are a number of permutations on the above depending on how much time you want to spend in transit, what you want to see and how much time you want to actually stay in one place and enjoy it.
1. Drop either the Rhine cruise or Ludwig’s castle. You can either see a lot of castles on a half day or full day Rhine tour, or a good look at one castle. You will not get the chance to see much of the inside of Ludwig’s, most of it is outside viewing. Very pretty, but you should know what to expect. I expect the luge is not an ice luge (not nearly high enough altitude), not saying it would not be enjoyable, but it may be more like a rollercoaster on rails than an ice luge.
2. I am totally underwhemed by Munich and would suggest you skip it. Most of it was bombed in WWII so there are very few charming or even interesting parts left. (Even Frankfurt has more of a charming old town.) With your brief itinerary, I would take it off the list. If you want to see a city, stop in Zurich. If you want to see great palaces and museums go to Berlin or Vienna (but please not on this trip, unless you drop Switzerland. . . )
3. I agree that if you could get your student’s family to meet you, that would be a better use of time. Perhaps they would be interested in Kandersteg/Jungfrau.
4. Using Kandersteg as a base if you can get inexpensive accommodation is not at all unreasonable. It is pretty, don’t get me wrong, just not as spectacular as the next valley over. However, it is fine to use as a base. There are several great walks in the valley, and the town itself is very small and quiet. To save time as you have a very short trip, I would use a car to get to Lauterbrunnen/Jungfrau and other areas for day trips rather than using a train or bus. Perhaps your relatives can lend you a car or come with you. (If they belong to Mobility Car Sharing, a car sharing organization for Swiss Residents, they will be able to rent a van quite cheaply or get a discount from some of the major rental companies. Check with yoru relatives.)
5. In response to your question on another post, you can rent vans through most rental agencies. Hertz, Budget and Avis all have mini-van rentals in Switzerland, and I assume they are available in Germany as well. I don’t think they have a lot of them and so they get booked early so reserve ASAP. (I am looking myself for early June when part of my family is coming over and vans are already booked.) A station wagon with a luggage rack would probably also work fine for you. Note that all the vans I have seen for rent are manual transmission.
6. Not sure what your flight time is from Frankfurt, but I assume it is before Noon as most US-bound flights depart in the morning. This would mean you either need to take an overnight train, or get to Frankfurt the night before, or leave very very early the morning of your flight to get to Frankfurt. Bear this in mind.
6. Going on your above suggestions, some itineraries which might work from Paris is:
Rhine Cruise Option
Train to Koblenz from Paris (fastest train is 6.5 hours and there seem to be departures all day; there is also an overnight train which departs at 10:30 pm and arrives at 6:30 am which would be an interesting experience for the kids I would think). Do half or full day Rhine cruise from Koblenz to Mainz or parts in between depending on how long you want to cruise and how much time you have (others may have a few as to whether there are better parts of the Rhine for castles, etc.) 1 night somewhere, or may need 2 nights depending on whether you take the day or night train from Paris.
Rent car in Mainz or train to Frankfurt Airport from Mainz (30 minutes or less) and get car. Drive past Frankfurt down to the “Romantic Road” area for 1 night, but not as far as Fussen.
On to Lucerne for 1 night, then Swiss Alps for 2-3 nights
Drive night before or take overnight train Frankfurt for return flight. (From Kandersteg fastest day train is just over 5 hours; there is also an overnight train that departs at 9:30 pm and arrives at the airport at 8 am, which should work for a US morning departure)
Ludwig’s Castle Option (would give more time in Swiss Alps)
Early morning flight to Frankfurt from Paris. Train or drive down all or part of the Romantic Road to Fussen. 1- 2 nights.
Train or drive on to Lucerne for 1 night. (-- hours from Fussen)
Kandersteg/Jungfrau for 3-4 nights (1 to 1.5 hours from Lucerne)
Drive night before or take overnight train Frankfurt for return flight.
I would think there are a number of permutations on the above depending on how much time you want to spend in transit, what you want to see and how much time you want to actually stay in one place and enjoy it.
Jan 21st, 2005, 09:35 AM
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"I expect the luge is not an ice luge (not nearly high enough altitude), not saying it would not be enjoyable, but it may be more like a rollercoaster on rails than an ice luge."
Luge is not like a rollercoaster on rails. Rather it is similar to an ice luge without the ice. You get into an individual luge (two can ride together) and go along a track (concrete or wood base, can't remember) without any rails. It goes VERY fast if you want it to (has brakes). My kids LOVED this and rode over and over when we were in Germany. We rode in Garmisch, but there are others around Fussen.
Luge is not like a rollercoaster on rails. Rather it is similar to an ice luge without the ice. You get into an individual luge (two can ride together) and go along a track (concrete or wood base, can't remember) without any rails. It goes VERY fast if you want it to (has brakes). My kids LOVED this and rode over and over when we were in Germany. We rode in Garmisch, but there are others around Fussen.
