Has anyone lived in Italy?
 

My husband and I are serioulsy considering a permanent move to Europe come retirement time --some years away, but still want to start gathering info from now. Strongest contenders for us are Italy and England.We would like to know if anyone has lived in or spent an extended amount of time in Italy that could share their experiances with us--positive or negitive. Visiting for 2 weeks is going to be a completely different experiance obviously. We have no "Under the Tuscan Sun" expectations. We won't be looking for jobs , so we would like to know the basic's regarding life there--cost of living ,is it better to buy or rent-that kind of thing.We aren't wealthy but can probably afford to buy a moderate 2 bedroom house. That's all we'd need. Also, does anyone know if it's true that in apartments the heat is only turned on for 8 hours a day?! I'd read that somewhere and was not happy about it! Anyway, we'd appreciate any kind of input.Oh--our Italian is fair but is a work in progress! Grazie!!

Hi Lexie,

>We aren't wealthy but can probably afford to buy a moderate 2 bedroom house. <

Be prepared for major sticker shock. :)

I suggest that you go to www.slowtrav.com. They have an expats board for Italy.

((I))

PS,

The most outrageous part of the movie version of Tuscan Sun was that it took only about a year to renovate a villa in a small Italian town.

That's funny, Ira. The books give an entirely different idea about the renovations than the movie (which I haven't seen).

"Italy" covers a lot of territory. The costs, lifestyles, and challenges will vary widely depending upon whether you mean,for example, Bolzano,some expat village in Tuscany, Rome, Bologna, or a small town in Calabria or Puglia.

Hi Ira-- are you the same Ira who gave me the great restaurant recommendation for Tuscany? Anyway, thanks for www.slowtravel.com Checked it out--it's great. I guess the reason I brought up Under the Tuscan Sun was because I didn't want anyone to think we thought moving to Italy was a great little fair-tale-- in the movie, the only hardship Signora Frances had to endure was smashing a scorpion. Seems she had the energy to cook loads of great meals for the workers too. No realistic difficulties were presented ,nor should they be in a fluffy romantic comedy-- the great scenery was enough to get me through the movie. Also, I have been checking out some sites found in I found in ITALY magazine [re: the 2 bedroom house thing] and did actually find properties in the north that were within our price range--some houses that were recently renovated,some apartments. Of course we're not buying anything site unseen! Thanks for your input.

Another book I found interesting, although it's a bit dated now, was Playing Away.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...l/-/0743213076

The chapter in that book on buying property would be useful. At least at the time of publication in 1988, the deeds and title system was effectively a mess. It was quite possible that you could discover decades later that your neighbor's great-grandmother had been given the right to pick peaches on your property, and you would have to pay off her descendants to get a clear title, etc. So a really good Italian advocate would be essential, I think.

Hi WillTravel! A quick question for ya-- I read the books a while ago and can't remember the time frame that it actually took to do the renovations--can you refresh my memory? Now you 've got me curious. Oh--consider yourself lucky not to have seen the movie!

Hi KT ! You brought up a good point-- I should have been more specific in my locations,which from what I'm seeing makes a huge difference price wise --cost of living in different regions of course also vary widely. Funny you should mention Bolzano-- that is one of the towns we were interested in researching, as well as Trento.. I guess our general interests lie in the north. Definately not in a large city -too costly. But not too rural either.I dunno KT, all I can say is thanks and wish us luck! Momma mia.

For Lexie and Ira,

An FYI, the expats part of the board at SlowTrav moved a few months ago to its own host at http://www.expattalk.com which is the board for http://www.expatsinitaly.com

HTH
Cristina

Thanks siena us! I'm going there right now.

I've not heard of the heat only being on 8 hours in apts. Our apartment had heat but we paid the gas bill so we kept it on as little or as much as we wanted. This was a brand new apartment and we were just happy to have heat. Some won't. In that case, you will have to get bumbula (sp?) heaters (like a small propane tank that hooks to the back of a heater on wheels) or a plug in electric heater for each room, ect. But electricity is expensive and the breakers usually pop if you have more than one or two plugged in at a time. Some houses have heat where there is a big tank out in the yard and you have to have the gas company come out and deliver when you run out. Other apartments have heaters where you hook the bumbulas up outside and they run the radiators/hot water heater. Usually they run out when you are in the shower! :) So, there are many different types of ways to heat your home. Just look for a home with the type that suits you.

lexie, I don't remember the time frame. I just remember it seemed to be endless. And always one new, undiscovered expense after another - although of course it's the same here if you decide to buy a really old house and renovate it.

That's o.k.WillTravel-- I thought it took them an exoberant amount of time-something we might have tried to pull off 20 years ago! Im' gonna go back and re-read the two books again-- that movie's got me all screwed up!

Hi PJI, I'm sooo glad your new apartment has heat! That' what want- to be able to controll it ourselves. I've heard about those bumbula and I'm quite frightened of the concept. Maybe it's just because it's new to us and we don't want to blow up anything. No--we really don't.Well the best thing to I suppose is make our wishes known to the realtor and pray a lot. Maybe we'll get lucky! Thanks a lot - you did really make me feel better.

Assuming you are US citizens, I would not think the Europe is a great place to retire, based primarily on the fact that income tax rates are higher than the US, and you will of course still be liable for US income tax on your income in excess of about US$80,000 a year. Also unless Medicare or a former employer’s policy would cover you outside the US (I don’t think so), you would have to get private health insurance, which can be expensive for seniors. As noted above, outside of southern Italy, I think you will find the cost of housing and living to be quite high, esp. in the Tuscany region. You might look in Sicily and parts of the mainland south of Rome, but in that case language will be a bit of an issue and health care will be below par for the most part.

You may be able to live part of the year in Italy and the rest in the US and escape Italian taxation. You will need some good tax advice on this. Also, as a US citizen you can’t stay indefinitely in Italy on a tourist visa, and would need to apply for a residents visa (especially to rent or buy property) which while not hard to get, would certainly put you on the tax rolls. I don’t know what property or other local taxes would be in Italy.

Citizens of EU countries have much more freedom to live visa-free in other EU countries, are used to the high tax rates and don’t pay taxes in their country of citizenship if they are not resident there. That makes Italy an attractive retirement option for people from EU countries.

Tax rates in the UK are among the highest in Europe, I think only the Scandinavian countries are higher. Many UK citizens retire to Spain as cost of living and taxes are lower, and some retire to Italy as well.

Actually lexie we live in Spain now and are back to a house with no heat/air con. We have butano heaters now (same as bumbula) and they work pretty well. It doesn't get terribly cold here but these houses aren't insulated (much like Italian houses) so it can be rather chilly. Those marble floors in the morning can be COLD. Get some good slippers! Like I said, its not unbearable but we are on our last butano and are actually going out to the local feed store down the street tonight to pick up a few refills. Most gas companys deliver them also, straight to your house but we just get them when we need them. Check to see what your hot water heater/stove run on too when you talk to the realtors. Our stove is butano, but we have been using the same one for about 7 months now and still haven't run out. Surely this will happen when I am cooking a feast for guests and I don't have a spare. :)

I am jealous - we LOVED living in Italy (Sicily to be exact). You will love it and will hopefully come to love all of the little inconveniences that come with it. Congratulations!

Lexie,
I lived in Italy for a couple of years.

My experiences were simultaneously positive and negative, just as I'd imagine any experience is!

Funny to hear you mention "Under the Tuscan Sun." I think that book is so far removed from the reality of Italy that it's not even funny!

I lived in Italy essentially illegally (pre 9/11), but since you are trying to purchase a property, you will automatically be on the government's radar.

It is appealing to live away from the big cities in terms of pricing, etc. but the provincial nature of small towns in Italy can sometimes feel rather constricting. Also, living in a small town, the chance that there are any other expats nearby is pretty small. Every once in awhile, it's nice to have a conversation in your mother tongue!

As far as the cost of living goes, it has been getting less affordable since the arrival of the euro. The inflation rates on everyday items such as fruits and vegetables have really put a strain on the average Italian income. Pasta, however, is always cheap and filling!

As far as buying or renting goes, it is true that the price of property in Italy is astronomical. If you can afford to purchase a property, that probably makes sense, but renting works too.

As far as the heat, I have not heard that before. Every apartment I was ever in had autonomous heat (i.e. you could control your own), except in the south, where many people had no heating system at all (even in houses).

Also, the smaller town you live in, the better your Italian will have to be. A higher percentage of people in small towns are likely to only speak Italian.

As far as health care goes, I think it is something to be concerned about, particularly considering the age at which you are considering moving to Italy. There is "socialized" medicine through state hospitals, etc, but many Italians prefer to pay the higher cost of privatized physicians rather than go to the state-run facilities.

There was a much lower level of privacy and, frankly, cleanliness, in state hospitals. Even recovering from surgeries, etc. people were in a large room with about 12 patients. Private room? Forget it. I've heard that private rooms are available at the more expensive facilities.

Pharmacies are a good health resource. Every pharmacist I encountered was extremely knowledgeable and able to directly dispense medication for my illness.

For someone who has lived in the United States their whole life, the health care system could be a pretty big shock.

In the eventual case that either you or your husband would need to move to an assisted care facility, you may find yourself moving back to the United States. These types of facilities are fewer in Italy. Many older Italians are still taken care of by their families at home.

Just some objective information. BTW, I lived mostly in the central/south, so things could be different in the north as it is generally more wealthy, industrialized, and up-to-date.

All that said, Italy is a very interesting place to live. It will get on your very last nerve and drive you insane. At the same time, it's also working its way into your heart. The experience will change you, most likely for the better, and while you may move again back to the US, Italy will always be with you.

Hi Cicerone! Thanks for your helpul comments. I've got a question for you-the U.S. taxes we will have to pay-- is this what you were referring to? If we earn less than 80,000 a year in Italy, and pay Italian taxes on it,I thought we are not required to pay taxes on it in the U.S. as well. I had read this is referred to as the $80,000 exclusion.Sorry- I find this all abit confusing. Also do you know anything about the double-taxation agreement which states that you do not have to pay taxes on the same income. We do want to apply for the permesso di soggiorno and a residency visa. We will not be working in Italy and outside of our savings that would be brought over, our only income would be our S.S. check and our Pension checks which I was told we could not be taxed on again in Italy due to this agreement.Sorry to make you crazy-- yes it is certainly easier for UA citizens. We also will be applying for duel citizenship, as all of my ancesters were Italian citizens and I have all of their original documents with the required dates, thankfully.

Hi PJI! Lucky you living in Spain! Thanks for your well wishes! We'll need every one of them!!!

Wow-Hi nnolen!! Thanks so much for your informative and extremely helpful post--you've touched on all of our concerns!! Have you had any difficutly with the tax situation that Cicerone mentioned if you don't mind me asking? Has ANYBODY reading this post experianced a problem in this area?
I'd heard that the Italian pharmacists were extremely knowledgeable --glad to hear it confirmed. Again, thanks for covering so much territory-- it was extremly helpful!
P.S. Very glad to hear about the heat being autonomous-- I had read that crazy thing about the heat being turned on and off in one of my "Moving to Italy" books of all things!!

I lived in Italy in the 80's working as civilian for the US government. It was a nice experience because the feds pay all of your housing costs. I recently built a small house near Teramo and agree that you can eat up some serious money in utilities, transportation, etc. I like the states also so my solution is to visit Italy when it is warm and I enjoy it more anyway.

Casale-Villa with No Bidet
http://www.angelfire.com/film/casale

You are correct that if your income is less than US$80,000 you would not have to pay US federal income tax, although you would still be required to file a tax return each year showing that you are exempt. The US$80,000 is the current exemption amount, and Congress has been talking for years about lowering it or getting rid of it entirely, although in my 15 years living overseas this has not yet happened and the amount has in fact increased a few thousand dollars over the years. However, you should make a contingency plan in the event that Congress does lower or get rid of this exemption. You would have to pay Italian tax on your income, double taxation treaties don’t exempt income from tax, they generally only lower the applicable rate or give you a credit for some of the tax you pay to another country. You need to get specific advice on this point. Also, if the majority of your investments are in US stocks, you need to file papers each year with your broker or pension fund to ensure that tax is not withheld on your dividends and stock sale profits at the max 30% rate for non-residents, this is especially important if your pension income is in the form of stock dividends or profits from stock sales.

I took at look at one of my expat tax handbooks, and I believe your income tax rate in Italy would be somewhere between 39% and 45%, which is fairly high, IMO. Interest you pay on a mortgage is NOT deductible from your income calculation (this is common in Europe). This book is a few years old and may not be current. Dividends and interest income, which may form a large part of your retirement income, are taxed at 12.5%, but the double taxation treaty may reduce this amount. If your income is less than US$45,000 you would be in the 31% bracket (i.e. close to US federal rates), but IMO it would be hard for two people to live in the parts of Italy you are considering on $45,000 BEFORE taxes. Italy has VAT, i.e. a sales tax of between 10%-20%.

If you can get dual citizenship, that would be helpful in being able to live there without a visa and possibly buying property and passing it to heirs. The US permits dual citizenship, but does not encourage it. Please see the note at the US State Dept website at http://travel.state.gov/dualnationality.htmlt . If you run into tax issues, you might consider giving up your US citizenship, I assume SS benefits would continue to be paid to you as you already earned them, but that is another question to explore. (I hope you are not going to rely on SS income too heavily, as I can’t imagine you would be paid near enough to live on, esp. in future years and in high inflation years. Hopefully you have run calculations.)

The comments above on health care and assisted living are right on point, and something to think seriously about. While you are in good health, living in Europe could be a fun experience for a few years or part of each year. However, being in your 80s and in frail health and far from family might not be the best way to enjoy retirement.

Couple of comments:

First, while many apartments have autonomous heating, many do not. This is something you need to look for if it is important to you. The book was right.

Taxes, Yes you do not have to currently pay double tax if your income from an Italian company is less than us$80k EACH. Next, yes you can deduct some of your interest payments if you are working and paying tax in ITaly.

The gas cannisters (bombola di gas) are in areas where gas does not reach like for my house out here in the boonies. If you live in a newer apartment you should have a gas hook up. The smaller bombole are easy to deal with although I too had to get used to it when I had m,y first apartment here. We now have the huge underground tanks which are much easier to not be scared of (out of site out of mind).

I do not find that many italians use private care unless there is something they cannot wait for. I have a private OB/GYN for my yearly visit but I can also see him for free at the hospital. I find the care above average.

You do not need a "residents" visa to buy or rent property but you do need a visa to enter the country and need to have a matching permesso di soggiorno to stay in the country.

For more info on all of the discussed topics check out my site (you can do a search for things you are interested in) as it is all info from people who have made the leap. expattalk.com

Wow Cicerone! You're hired!! You are an extremely well informed person on this topic and I can't thank you enough. The double taxation agreement has always been a source of confusion . Now that you've straightened it out for us, we need to re-evaluate things. I hadn't realized the income tax was so high. We were mistakenly under the impression that our pension checks and S.S. would not be taxed on in Italy once we paid tax on it here. Hmmmm, have to do a lot more calculating and re-assessing. No , we would not rely on our S.S. checks heavily,not uder these conditions. We have no investments in stocks here, so we don't have to worry about that at least.

The health care, again an extremely important issue for us since we will be alone. One has to take care not to romanticise what life will be like living abroad-- what we would like it to be like in Italy and what it will be in reality-- always two different things.

Well Cicerone, you have given us much so very to think about. Again, I can't tell you how invaluable your input has been. You have been so kind to take the time to respond to us in such great depth . Many thanks.

Hello siena us! Yikes-- that bombole thing again! I like the out of sight out of mind thing--if we make it to Italy, I'm definately going to try for the gas hook--up. I know , maybe I'm being silly about it-- it's just the thought of it... Anyway , must remember to check out that autonomous heating issue-- I have mild asthma and am very sensitive to cold. Don't want to run into trouble there either.

Glad to hear you find the health care above average. Also glad to hear it is not a necessity to take out private health care. We were concerned about the care and conditions in the state hospitals. Many thanks for you sharing your website with us-- you can bet I'll be on it today. We can't thank you enough for the help you've given us.

Much of the above is good advice. I did not read each post thoroughly, so I won't comment extensively. I live in Italy, and I am looking at retirement five years or so down the road, so I do have some insight.

Would I retire in Italy after living here six years? Probably not. The best solution for me, and one I would encourage if you could possibly afford it, is to live 5 months in ttaly and 7 months in the U.S. There is the 180 Rule, or something like that, wherein you live even a few days over half the year in the U.S., and the rest in Italy, or Spain or wherever, thus paying U.S. taxes. Italy has global taxation in that if you pay Italian taxes, they can, and they will, tax you on any property or income you have anywhere, with no deductions for depreciation, repairs, etc.

In short taxation in Italy is horrendous (from an American point of view). On the other hand, Italians have a social net that the U.S. can't begin to approach.

Concerning the Italian health care system. It can be some of the best and some of the worst. But so could the U.S. If I were to have serious surgery, where would I go? The U.S., hands down. Not so much for the surgery part but for the after-care. Yes, you are in a large room with 12 or 14 beds, people wandering in and out, no air conditioning in the summer, and this is in intensive care. You must have family or friends who can bring you the basics and make sure the "staff" are keeping up with the medications.

On the other hand, I have never been healthier in my life living in Italy. And, yes, the pharmicists are wonderful, all-knowing and have far more power than they do in the U.S. Become their friend.

You have received so much good advice here, so I don't want to repeat it. Italy is a wonderous yet maddening country. It is magical and it is hell. Language is critical, and the bureacracy and paperwork are every bit the complete nightmare you have heard. It is horrendously expensive to own a car and drive. As for real estate, I would still hire someone at a very high price to negotiate any kind of house or apartment sale. I don't mean to discourage you, but please go into this with your eyes wide open. You really need to spend some time here before making a decision. Good luck.

I think that SantaChiara hit the nail on the head. I built a house in Italy and have also come to five month Italy/seven month USA compromise. Have been many times to Gemelli (where the Pope now recuperates) to visit my seriously ill cousin and although her care is good, I would also rather be hospitalized in the USA if I have a choice.

Casale
http://www.angelfire.com/film/casale

I've read several times about the expectation that family members will provide food and help take care of you, if you should end up in an Italian hospital.

So what exactly happens if you are a tourist traveling alone?

SantaChiara, thank you even more extremely helpful advice.I agree,health care in America could go either way. I don't have much to compare it to except some excellant care in an E.R. in Normandy.One quick question-- would we be taxed again on soc.sec. checks? Thanks!

WillTravel, good question! It's a frightening prospect. I do think and hope that the hospitals would have a social service department to assist someone traveling alone to take care of their needs.I think.Does anyone know?

Folks, a word of warnming, generalizing is not a good idea. The care you get in one town may be completely opposite of that you get in another town. FOr example, the hospital in Siena has A/C, rooms for only 2 people or private as well as ward rooms for 4 people. The one in Poggibonsi is brand new and VERY nice.

Yes it is helpful if you have someone with you but if yuou are all alone they will have someone for you. You do not bring your own food in any hospital that I have ever heard of BUT you do need to bring your own forks, knives, cups, glasses, TP, etc. No big deal IMO as in the US to use these things they charge you an arm, a leg and your first born.

I know two boards that give conditions for expatriates, notes by people who lived in a country. Example for Yugoslavia: http://www.realpostreports.com/rprwe...goslavia.shtml
http://talesmag.com/
And another board
http://directory.google.com/Top/Soci...e/Expatriates/

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