meg

I just received e-mail confirmation of my tour of the Scavi/St. Peters tomb in April. Has anyone been on this tour? Any reference material available for pre-tour study? I know it is supposed to be a great tour, but I'm not really sure what I'll be seeing!!!!

Gina

Hi Meg, <BR> <BR>I haven't been on the tour yet, but I also just got my confirmation for my January trip to Rome. Since I'll be back well before you leave in April, I'll be happy to post experiences and any suggestions for reading, etc. It does sound like an amazing experience, and I'm really looking forward to it.

Ed

You'll find a tad, just a tad, of info at <BR>www.twenj.com/romevatican.htm#necropolis <BR> <BR>The best source I know of is the book When In Rome by Hutchinson. Two Thousand Years in Rome by the Mertzes is also quite good. The former should be available in bookstores (and Amazon.com) and perhaps libraries. The latter is out of print but should be available at your library or through their lending agreement from larger libraries. <BR> <BR>Ed

Jaime Torres George

Meg: <BR> <BR>The tomb it's inside the Saint Peters Church in the vatican city the only problem it's to identify S. Peters grave <BR>becasue he was buried in a common grave <BR>just under an altar inside the church. <BR>It's such as experience if you're a Roman Catholic but if not you won't see nothing because its nothing. Maybe you can see others popes graves in the same place maybe "La Pieta" of Leo D Vinci <BR>But why you take a tour when you can go by your own it's for free. (Maybe your paying for the tour guide comments.

Ed

Jaime: <BR> <BR>Perhaps you should check your facts. <BR> <BR>The tour of the Vatican Excavations (Scavi) does not visit the inside of Basilica San Pietro but beneath it. <BR> <BR>This area is only accessible on a tour, reservations required. (Through the Soperintendenza degli Scavi.) <BR> <BR>St. Peter's grave, if indeed it is his, is not a 'common' grave. Irrespective of to whomever it may have belonged, it was venerated in the early centuries of the Common Era. Many who are not Roman Catholics, myslef included, find the tour both interesting ... as well as moving. Clearly one of the top experiences in Rome for many visitors. <BR> <BR>The tombs of many popes are below the apse in the 'Grottoes', near St. Peter's tomb. Many others are upstairs throughout the basilica. <BR> <BR>The Pieta is in the first chapel on the right on the main floor of the basilica. <BR> <BR>Ed

Jaime Torres George

Ed: <BR> <BR>Hello Ed , I always check your checklist <BR>before I make any movement to go for vacations. Good to hear from you. <BR>Exactly a month ago I went to a mayor trip along Italy. I was in rome and, of course in the Vatican. I tour the vatican with a local employee of the Vatican government. And for sure he told me that nobody in the world know exactly wich one f the bodies buried in that crave of what I'm talking about is S. Peters one. He was buried in a massive grave because he did not was a Roman citizen .(By the fact). And of course there's a lot of popes buried upstairs in the church but the most ancient ones are buried downstairs inside the church.

Marilyn Ham

Last year we took the tour in March through the Vatican and received our email confirmation just as you did. The tour takes approximately 12 people, so it is a small group. You go underground. The excavations were started earlier this century. You end up under about 2 layers of St. Peters. At one place they have excavated to the foundations of the latest St. Peters. The gravesite of St. Peter himself is moving. It was excavated and a skeleton wrapped in purple cloth was found, which as they say is presumed to be St.Peter. Constantine had an alter built around it and in Latin it says something to the effect to, "come here to St. Peter" (I don't think I remember that quite right). He was reinterred there, but a few of the finger bones are in a reliquary in the Pope's quarters. It was also supposed that the head of St. Peter was with St.Paul's in San Giovani, but upon DNA testing there was no match between the two, so it is supposed that the skull in San Giovani is not that of St. Peter. I believe the feet bones are missing in St. Peter's grave as well. The digging also shows an older cemetery of pagan Romans as well. If you suffer from claustrophobia this might not be for you.

Paul

We also took the Scavi tour, and it was fantastic! As Ed correctly points out, it's a tour beneath the basilica. In addition to the tombs, you go right by one of the bases for the Bernini columns upstairs! However, it's not a tour with "reconstructed ruins" - it's very much the raw remains. We had a wonderful tour guide, who'd been working there for years, and she explained everything we were looking at, so that you could envision what was there originally. This is a unique tour, and I highly recommend it.

Ed

In fact, Jaime, there's a pretty good chance the bones of the "important" person entombed there were identified. Unfortunately some really inept archaeology by the Vatican staff makes full identification uncertain. <BR> <BR>And of course it's quite correct that, nearly two thousand years later, we'll never know exactly who that important person was ... though about 1800 years ago there was a pretty strong belief that it was Peter. <BR> <BR>If you have a chance to get a look at the books I mentioned you might enjoy they. I suspect you'll get a more correct understanding about what's down there than your friend from the Vatican workforce. <BR> <BR>Ed

Maira

I also received confirmation, but my 13 year old niece can't join the tour as you have to be at least 15 years old. I have three tickets reserved and now it looks only myself will be taking the tour. Most likely I will be giving away two tickets that day to the Swiss guards to pass on as I already sent out the $$$$.

Walter

I had mine booked in Nov99 and I believe it was the 1st earliest tour in the AM. I did the Swiss Guard thing and walked into the Scavi office with papers in hand. The man looked at the paper and said "No tour today" and just walked away. I asked him for anytime that week (it was a Monday) and he said "Closed all month" perhaps he meant "week". I plan on booking again for next March. I'm sure this was the "exception and not the rule" but have a "Plan B" just in case. HTH Regards, Walter <BR>

Ed

Walter: <BR> <BR>I forget the timing exactly, but at the end of last year and into the early part of this year the Scavi was closed, with little or no notice at all, for an extended period of time. My understanding is that they discovered safety (structural) issues that they addressed. I believe the Scavi may have been closed into February or March of this year. <BR> <BR>In any event it was a very unusual situation so you ought to make it this time around. <BR> <BR>By the way, after 35 years of visiting Rome I might observe that a "Plan B" is good for almost every Plan A you devise in Rome. <BR> <BR>Ed

Paulo

For those interested (in what Ed has called inept archaeology), two faces of the St. Peter's bones "issue" are available on the net. One of them is in Italian, though ...<BR><BR>http://sanlorenzo.dataport.it/LeOssadiPietro/Ossasanpietro1.htm<BR><BR>http://www.americanatheist.org/spr97/T1/bones.html#F21<BR><BR>Paulo<BR>

Ed

Paulo: <BR> <BR>Thanks for bringing the websites to our attention. <BR> <BR>Unfortunately both appear to suffer from extreme bias, in opposite directions. <BR> <BR>The article from the American Atheist is, not surprisingly, strongly biased toward trashing everything connected with the church. There is a lot that is correct and instructive in the article, but so much bias that it may do more harm than good to read it as a first source on the subject. <BR> <BR>I've been able to read the second article only with the help of machine translation. This article is somewhat less biased, though biased it is. It is probably the more useful of the two to get closer to the facts. But the authors are on shaky ground, at best, in claiming that the bones of St. Peter are positively and indisputably to be found under the high altar. That's a leap of faith that the facts just don't support. <BR> <BR>For truly unbiased accounts of what may be found I refer the reader to the books suggested in my first note. <BR> <BR>Ed <BR> <BR>

Cathy

I did the Scaci tour in November 199 and fully enjoyed it. It is one of those very small and hidden secrets of Rome - each tour is about 7 to 8 people and the tour guide is an expert working on the dig. The tour ends with the group coming upsatiars to St. Peters - and it is amazing to see the Basillia after beeing underneath it - in fact slightly frightening thinking of all the stone and masonry that was above you. Would highly recommend it if you do get a chance to take the tour. Don't forget that the Vactican Tourist Office offer free tours of St Peters as well. <BR> <BR>Have a great time, <BR> <BR>Cathy

gayle

Hi Meg, my husband and I had an unbelievable experience with our tour or the scarvi in April this year. When we arrived the other 10 people booked were all from one booking from USA and they didnt show! A priest who is studying at the Vatican and another American priest who was training to do the tours and who has just commenced his masters at the Vatican (both from USA)took us on the tour. We are Anglican and it was FASCINATING. You do not need to read up on it as that is the idea of the tour. They start you with how StPeters came about and how it was rebuilt and lead you through the history of the Popes as they lead you to the big finale which is of course the grave they hope is StPeters. The Priest actually said that when they came across the grave that had 10 reasons to be believed to the "the one" the current Pope and the Vatican were estatic... until they had DNA on the contents and found that there was remains from SEVERAL bodies in the tomb. Of course everyone was devastated until sometime later ...and I cant remember how.. but theyll tell you.. the punch line is that they believe the remains of St Peter had been moved not long after his burial to the grave next door because the robbing of graves was rampant in those days and they did it to protect him. And they have some amazing evidence to back it up. Youll love it. My strongest advise is to take a tape recorder with you as there is so much info and its fascinating, whether your religious or not that you cant take it all in. Its like the ultimate mystery story. They have pictures in a book that they show you as they walk you through that gives you all the pieces of the puzzle as you go. You'll be amazed your actually walking throught the archeogical dig with people working as you go. This is no museum walk. Its the real thing. Well you can tell by my ramblings that we were MEGA IMPRESSED. Enjoy! - Gayle

gayle

I should have added that I had never heard of this tour or even knew what a "scarvi" was when I discovered this Forum at the start of our first Europe trip planning. And yes I got all the info and booked it over the net from the info received from this Board. You're all great - Our travel was so enhanced by great experiences like the Scarvi because of the info that was shared by everyone. thanks- Gayle

hamlet

Maira - Don't be too quick to give away your scavi tickets. If your niece is with you I would be surprised if they would really turn her away since she's not a toddler or really young child. I got my tickets on-site and don't recall if they asked for ID, not that I was 15 or even close, but I looked young for my age. And yes, as everyone else who has taken the tour seems to think - I too was fascinated by it.

Paulo

Agreed, Ed! A train load of wishfull thinking on one side and a strong trashing bias on the other. Aurea mediocritas ...<BR><BR>What is transparent, though, is that either Giovanni Segoni made the story up (or was told to), that the disputed bones were indeed disposed in a box that was then forgotten for 10 years, or the Vatican archeology team indeed was unexplicably sloppy taking into consideration the importance of the matter. <BR><BR>Also, a couple of years ago, at age ninety something, Margherita Corducci wasn't allowed to revisit the scavi ... as if she were a "persona non grata" for having "discovered" St. Peter's bones.<BR><BR>It all looks too "strange" for my taste. I would almost bet that there are facts known to a few/Pope that are kept, for some reason, undisclosed. <BR><BR>Paulo<BR>

Ed

I vote, Paulo, for sloppiness and stupidity. Msgr. Kaas is just the sort of wrongly bullheaded bureaucrat that makes the tale ring true. <BR> <BR>Sadly we'll never, ever, know. The Vatican continues its policy of opaqueness on all matters. <BR> <BR>I for one am not a believer in conspiracies. I must confess, though, that the operating mode of the Vatican is enough to create suspicion about anything that comes out of there ... sadly. Were they to say it's daytime, I would certainly look quickly to the sky. <BR> <BR>Whatever ones take on "St. Peter's Tomb" ... the tour is a richly rewarding experience. <BR> <BR>Ed