I was in Paris last week with two American friends (60 & 54) on their first visit to Europe. I can attest that places like Notre-Dame are full of "gypsy-looking" women, and teenagers who tried to distract me from taking care of my charming but naive friends (Never open your purse and start counting your change in a crowd on the Parvis de Notre-Dame !) and kept wanting to talk to them. I spent a lot of time waving them away. <BR>Given their language and dress, I'd say they were from the Balkans - I see and hear the same kind of people begging in the streets of Geneva (mostly sad-looking women begging with bored children in their lap, or children who will slip you a cardboard note saying they are hungry at your restaurant table). <BR> <BR>I was born in Paris where I still have some family, and it has always been well known that Notre-Dame, Sacre-Coeur, Madeleine, and most touristy spots are places where you have to be careful of pickpockets, wherever they come from. <BR> <BR>Also, I've noticed a sharp increase in the number of people from India or Sri-Lanka selling all kind of worthless souvenirs arount the Eiffel-Tower, which is not criminal (except to taste) but annoying.

WOW-what a response, certainly more than I imagined. Sorry to disappoint you Buyer, but a troll-not. Just sick and tired of not enjoying my vacations. For those with informative comments, thank you.

Although we know them as "gypsies" you'll probably hear them referred to in Europe more frequently as Roms (which is how they refer to themselves), or as Gitans, or Tsiganes. <BR> <BR>Interestingly, when they first migrated to Europe from northern India and the middle east 1,000 years ago, people on the continent mistakenly referred to them collectively as "Egyptiens". English speakers took this french pronunciation of the word Egyptians, and chopped/modified it down to "Gypsies", while in Spain and southern France it became shortened to "Gitans". <BR> <BR>For anyone interested and able, the April 2001 french-language edition of National Geographic has an extensive feature article about the Roms, and it is both informative and fascinating.

Somehow I don't think Kate meant the term "Gypsies" to really mean ethnic gypsies. I think it was a term to include all bothersome beggars and pickpockets - people looking for an illegal opportunity whatever their color or ethnic origin. We usually go to Paris in mid to late October and I have rarely seen a presence of these people. However, last year we visited in late June - high tourist season - and they were all over the place - in your face type of people. I found it uncomfortable. My wife was followed on rue St. Honore for several blocks by someone begging and trying to touch her. She walked into a store and he finally left. If he hadn't, she was going to ask the sales person to call the police. My point, she didn't characterize him as a "gypsy" but she was afraid.

Ah! Political correctness. Of course we must be politically correct. Where I live the newspaper will say that there is a rapist at large in your area thought to be responsible for 6 brutal rapes in the last week. Beware! He is described as a man of average height and average build short hair and wearing dark cloathing--no age given. No mention of skin color, race, ethnicity, type of cloathes or anything else as this would be politically incorrect. So now all the women can walk around being paranoid believing that every average male could be the brutal rapist. Of course this is as it should be. <BR>I have a cousin who while in St Peter's Square in Rome witnessed a member of his group surrounded and pickpocketed by a group of xxx girls. He had everything taken and his trip ruined. My cousin describes the thieves as typical normal Catholic school girls. Of course he doesn't know what gypsys are and certainly wouldn't malign them. Let the Italian Catholic school girls take the rap. So beware if in St Peter's square! All of those school children at the Papal audience are suspect. <BR>While in Rome this last March I had my pocket picked on the subway despite being aware and taking all suggested precautions. 2 days later I took a girl's hand out of my pocket while my wife was fighting with a boy for control of her purse. 2 days later again we were strongly warned about "gypsy" pickpockets by the desk man at our hotel in Florence. I asked him that since everybody seemed to know who was doing the crime why couldn't the authorities take some kind of action. His answer "There is nothing we can do. Whenever we try we are labeled fascist and racist." So maybe the answer is when traveling in Europe to just clutch our belongings being paranoid of everyone we meet as a potential thief or pickpocket or worse. This is as it should be. <BR>Funny thing: I lived in Rome in the 1960s for 1 year with 100+ other American students. Never once heard of anyone being pickpocked, assaulted, pursnached, robbed or even had anything stolen from them. Also can't remember having seen a gypsy. I wonder what has changed that all Italians, Frenchmen etc. should now be suspect of being "robbers and thugs".

Gerry, re: "I asked him that since everybody seemed to know who was doing the crime why couldn't the authorities take some kind of action." <BR> <BR>I'm not sure what kind of action you feel the authorities should take. Are you talking about action after-the-fact (i.e. crime) or some kind of pre-emptive action?

Gerry - so tongue in cheek!!! But you're right. Why don't we just call them thieves? In Rome a young beggar girl entered a restaurant where we were dining and targeted only the tourists - begging, etc. How can you look at a child and say no? Thr insinuation from her was she would be beaten if she didn't come out with money. But we knew the scam was on. The owner did nothing and let this child walk through his restaurant upsetting all his foreign guests (who probably were there on a one time visit). Political correctness has gotten out of hand. There are essentially tourists and those who would take advantage of them. <BR> <BR>I don't know what the business people are afraid of but I have had experiences in France, Ireland and Italy where ordinary citizens have come up and vehemently yelled at the thieves and beggars who were targeting foreigners - telling them they were a shame on their country for their behaviour - especially Ireland.

Capo Please! <BR> <BR>Once upon a time people in the big cities of Europe were left on their own to fend for themselves. When they became unhappy and rioted the government sent in the army to quell them. Nothing was done to protect the people from crime. By and by someone in London got the idea that government could establish police departments and criminal courts to cut down on the crime problem that citizens were complaining about and maybe help create a safer and more civilized society. The police department was given a mandate to deal with this crime problem. This worked so well that the idea spread so that now we have police nearly everywhere in the world. They deal with crime in both reactive and pre-emtive ways. This includes identifying the criminals, alerting and educating the public, patroling the streets, enforcing the laws, arresting the violators, aiding in their prosecution and many other activities aimed at reducing crime. In my area for example they use undercover observers and decoys to catch thieves who prey on tourists. <BR>Now I asked the hotel deskman what I thought at the time to be a legitimate innocent question. He could have said "Well its a difficult issue that we are trying to resolve." Or "the police do their best." Or something like that. Instead he said "there is nothing we can do." This says to me 1/It doesn't really effect me so I don't really care or 2/We are afraid to do anything or 3/Its not worth the effort or 4/The situation is hopeless or 5/OR? <BR>I was thankful to him for warning us stenuously about the problem and for who to look out for and where. I thanked him for this advice. If you don't know what your looking for you can't defend yourself. But, I still wondered out of curiosity what if anything his city was doing about it. Afer all, it would be their reputation that could suffer, not mine. <BR> <BR>Hope this clarifies, <BR> <BR>Gerry <BR>

Sorry Gerry - I don't understand your point. I don't know where you live and I understand that France has a different culture than the US but this attitude of "not my problem and I can't do anything about it" doesn't make sense to me. Maybe someone who lives in Paris (or Rome, Florence, Dublin) can explain it. My first trip to Paris, in my surprise, I must have stared too long at the two policemen carrying sub-machine guns on the street and they laughed at me - the same experience in Rome. What is this about displaying scary weapons and doing nothing about petty crime that happens all around them?

Pat: <BR> <BR>You understood my main point perfectly well. I was just clarifying for Capo who I feared may have gotten sidetracked. And Capo by the way, no offense. I love your posts. <BR> <BR>Gerry

That's right, everybody loves Capo.... <BR> <BR>sob!......sniff!

Thanks, Gerry (and no offense taken.) <BR> <BR>I was just curious about the Florentine desk man's response, "Whenever we try [to take some action against 'gypsy' pickpockets] we are labeled fascist and racist." I wonder what kind of <I>action(s)</I> he's referring to that Italian authorities might try to take that people would label fascist and racist? <BR> <BR>And that, in turn, made me wonder what kind of actions you think the authorities could take (which you answered.) <BR> <BR>But I still wonder what kinds of actions the desk man might have been referring to which he feels would be condemned as fascist and racist. <BR> <BR>I'd really like to hear from some Europeans, especially Italians and French, if they feel -- as some people seem to -- that their authorities don't do enough about petty crime and, if so, what actions they think their authorities could take.

Gerry, Capo, Pat, <BR> <BR>As an European (French), here's my opinion: <BR> <BR>There has always been a problem of petty (or less petty) thieving going on with a few bands of "gipsies", "Gitans", "Roms", etc., mostly burglaring, pickpocketing, affecting Europeans as well as tourists. It is hard to deal with since those bands move and mingle with others that have nothing to do with these crimes. However, they will often help the criminals escape the police, on ethnic grounds. Also, many organisations devoted to fight racism will complain that any measure targeting "Gypsies", crime or not, is racist. Since there have been clearly racist and discriminatory measures taken against those people in the past (not so long ago in fact), the authorities are reluctant to take really effective measures, when it would be possible, for fear of being accused - and add to that the political implications of being labelled "extreme-right" in Europe now. <BR> <BR>Furthermore, there has been an increase in displaced people coming to seek refugee status in Europe these last 20 years, mostly from Africa, Sri-Lanka, and Eastern-Europe. Some (a small number) of those people are clearly here to live from preying on the local population and/or the tourists. At best they will be begging and selling worthless junk, at worst they will steal and deal drugs. They don't have a refugee statute, but they can't be sent back home (when "home" is known). Their crimes are usually not serious enough for long term imprisonment, or they will use children who can't be imprisoned due to their age, and whenever measures (administrative or legal) are taken, they will claim they are victims of racism and discrimination. Recently, we had Somalian teenage boys in Geneva who used to vandalise public equipments, and the local politicians were reluctant to take disciplinary measures "because they did not want to appear to be racists". <BR> <BR>I'm fairly positive that is what Gerry's Florentine hotelier was referring to. <BR>

Florence: <BR> <BR>Thank you for your thoughtful explanation of the problem. This is precisely what I understood the hotelier to be saying. That's why I did not feel the need to ask him any more questions. I'm sure you know as in my sarcastic post above, we have many simular problems here in the US. My quarrel is with those who would misguidedly place political correctness and fear of offending someone's sensibilities over public safety and making themselves look stupid in the process. <BR> <BR>Gerry

It seems that this has gone off track. Just back from Paris and only occasionally - three times, maybe - ran into women, with baby carriages and small child(ren) tagging along, who looked us straight in the eye and said "Hello, do you speak English?" The first time I almost responded but she was too close and I could see just how filthy her hair and clothes were, broken teeth, etc., and we just ignored these women. But the "speak English" ploy seems to be a preferred approach these days. Still, there weren't too many bothering us, and only at major sites. The hawkers were chased away occasionally by the bike police, but they don't annoy me much. Oh, one little scamp on the subway just didn't have his routine down yet. Not swift, not sure, and so when he saw me watching him, he stuck his hand out to beg. I just shook my head and he ran off. Just go about your business. There are lots of unpleasant things in life and the only way you can avoid them is to go to DisneyWorld. But there the bathrooms are filthy. It's just a crazy world.

Just today, we were driving down a Brussels side street toward home when suddenly two young Arab men (at least they looked Arab and one of them was wearing a jacket with a large Moroccan flag patch on it) came running by with the police in hot pursuit. The police were able to capture one and we saw the other dash into a building. Several people had witnessed the event, but we were the ONLY ones who would tell the police where the second man had gone. It was very irritating to see so many people that unwilling to help in such a basic way. But the cops said that was the way things worked...people will complain about the high level of street crime but won't help the police with the problem. <BR>Two weeks ago, we were in Paris for the day. For the first time ever, a couple of "gypsies" (in the generic sense that they were dressed in more or less gypsy fashion) went after my husband (who is not stupid, ignorant or unaware) and one of them DID get his wallet. But two American girls standing nearby quickly shoved into the thief, making her drop the wallet before she had it stowed away. They grabbed it and gave it to my husband; the thieves then ran off. <BR>BTilke <BR>

Thanks for your comments, Florence. The kinds of things you mentioned are what I assumed Gerry's Florentine hotel desk man was referring to, but I was just curious to see if anyone, particulary any Europeans such as yourself, could expand on his remark. <BR> <BR>I guess I don't necessarily see it as a "political correctness" issue as Gerry does. I think the issue is a broader one, faced by most, if not all, open democratic societies: how do authorities provide for public safety, for the common good, while still allowing individual freedoms? <BR> <BR>P.S. I'm not a stranger to the concept of people being afraid to take some action for fear of being accused of racism. Back in the early '80s, I was an internal auditor for a bank, and we audited the bank's "cash facility". One of the employees, a member of a minority group, worked in the change counting room and the count always came up short when he worked (the count was fine when he was sick or on vacation.) We brought this to the attention of management but they refused to take any action lest they be accused by this individual of racism. I guess they felt the money he was apparently stealing was a worthwhile price to pay for remaining free from possible bad public relations and/or a lawsuit.