Marco

xxx quoted: European and American cities alike are suffering from the vandalism caused by recent immigrant<BR><BR> it maybe the case in Switzerland and in Paris where most of those taggers are indeed adolescants sons of immigrants who often do have a problem of identity: They don't really feel like belonging to the land of their parents since they never lived there and they don't either feel to belong to the new country that host them. But it is very reducing to think that this is the only reason.<BR><BR>Unfortunatly, here in Rome since a couple of years graffitis became as well a big problem. However the vandals are only Italians adolescants, immigrants are a very little number compared to nothern Europe and you don't have yet a second generation of immigrant sons. The problem is more related to an MTV type of culture... <BR><BR>I'd like to remember that graffitis were invented in the US 30 years ago mainly by african-americans or hispanic-americans who are not recent immigrants, plus with rap music a lot of white-american adolescants as well joined this habit.<BR><BR>Identity and belonging to a society is not only related with being a foreigner in the country you're living or not. Those are only my opinions, nothing to do with PC.

aa

Phil, it seems like the general mood has shifted, as more people concerned about graffiti are coming out of the woodwork. I will be visiting Switzerland this summer and will check this out for myself. If it's as bad as has been suggested, it is a big problem and shouldn't be ignored. I am especially distressed to hear about houses of worship being sprayed--there's no excuse for that, ever!, no matter how disenchanted you feel. Can you imagine the reaction in a Muslim country if anti-Islamic graffiti were sprayed all over their mosques?

Phil

aa:<BR><BR>Well, the mood does not seem to have shifted among Swiss residents posting on this forum, as virtually all posters giving so much importance to graffiti are visitors.<BR><BR>Let me be very clear: I *do not* defend taggers and sprayers. I simply want to make clear that graffiti are just a minor problem to us living in these places. They may seem more important to vistors, as they are obvious and stationary. In cotrast to that, drug addicts, for example, tend to shift and generally seem to gather in places not obvious to travellers.<BR><BR>Phil<BR>

Florence

aa, <BR><BR>after coming over here and having made sure it is indeed as bad as it seems, what will you do about it ? Mount a campaign asking the Swiss to abandon all other concerns and to start vigilante patrols in order to eliminate graffiti ? Write to our 26 local governments threatening them never to come visit again if this is not taken care of pronto ? Petition the Swiss federal government ? Alert the UN ?<BR><BR>Come on, we know it is bad, we are trying to educate the young (btw, most offenders are not recent immigrants, but the sons and daughters of well to do Swiss citizens - especially the nazi graffiti), we're making the offenders clean and pay for the damages, and we're talking the industry to develop paints that are less harmful and easily removable, etc. <BR><BR>What we don't need is the kind of patronizing advice and derogatory remarks that have been going on in this thread.<BR>

aa

Boy, you Swiss are touchy! And hostile! Phil says it's a "minor problem", Florence says "we know it's bad"--so which is it? Talk about derogatory remarks--when your fellow Swiss try to do something about it, you call them paranoid!

Florence

It's ugly, it looks bad, but it is a minor problem.

Phil

aa:<BR><BR>Touchy? Are we touchy if we try to explain that graffiti are just a minor problem? Go figure! At least we use real e-mail addresses and names.<BR><BR>Florence:<BR>Merci d'&ecirc;tre venue &agrave; mon aide.<BR><BR>Phil

Ursula

I agree with Florence and Phil. <BR>It's ugly, it looks bad, but we have more serious problems than graffiti.<BR><BR>I would be happy to see this thread sink.<BR>Enjoy your weekend with or without graffiti.<BR>

Marco

To me graffiti isn't a minor problem, however it is the syptom of a deeper problem, I don't think repression would be the best solution. It is a bit like if you have an allergy problem due to a wrong diet that causes you some red spots on your skin, and you put some ointment on it, it will solve the problem only temporarily. If you repress graffitis, the problem will come out some other ways maybe worse. Don't get me wrong, I'm not surrending, the problem is I don't think it's just a question of integration, or of some adolescants having fun. Here in Italy we have one of the most stupid TV in Europe. Programs and Comercials treat the adolescants like a category in competition with elder generations. The summary of what medias are telling them is: You're young, you're cool, to be young and cool buy this and buy that, consume this music (which isn't any more an art but only a big industry) consume this sport, we're living in a big global village, all the youngsters are alikly young and alikely cool cause they think, do, and buy the same things you do. Forget about culture, forget about the past, these are old boring bullshit from the stupid elder generations which are boring and are your enemies, you don't want to grow up, so please have fun with graffitis as long as you consume and you don't care about what's really happening around the world, and as long as you only watch television. <BR>The results is that they totally lost any sense of aesthetic, don't know what a real emotion is, and look more like zombies than humans. Adolescants have always had in their instincs a great amount of creative, positive, potentially constructive rebellion energy. Medias target manely adolescants due to their naivness they are their favourite victims, because of that medias managed to reduce this formidable potential of creativity and intelligence into vulgar vandalism such as graffitis

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Ivan

Marco, you're comments are very intelligent and to the point.<BR>Thanks for your posts.<BR>I hope all countries that have problem grafittis can find solutions to the problem.