jw

Thank you, Tony, for your calm, realistic addition. Shruggie's comments about New Orleans illustrate what many of us have in common -- naivete about the places that infatuate us. The poverty he didn't want to see in the New Orleans of his imagination is more Louisiana's problem than the country's. This remarkable, colorful, fascinating state has immense practical problems of poor education, low-paying jobs, and a disregard for its natural resources. So far the attempts at solutions seem to involve setting up gambling casinos and relaxing pollution regulations on industry. Louisiana presently has the highest rate of neurotoxins in its air.<BR><BR>As Ursula wrote, Switzerland is not a beautiful little country without problems. Neither is Louisiana (sometimes it does seem like a separate country -- it's so different from any other place in the U.S.) And when travelers like myself visit our favorite places, we are looking to escape the problems of our own locales for awhile.<BR>I don't know about the Swiss, but Louisiana can use every single tourist it can snag. It's a state filled with culinary and cultural and scenic delights, but if you want it to be Epcot, don't look too close. J.

Get

BTilke:<BR>So, as a journalist, you are going to wirte an article about tagging and graffitis in Switzerland for a travel magazine. I hope the working hours are not too long at the place you will be working (they seem to be too long in Switzerland, as you stated in a different thread), so you will be able to do some serious research in your spare time.<BR><BR>It is naive to the extreme to suggest Swiss police should try to eradicate graffitis or that neighbourhood watch groups should patrol the streets. What should they do to these sprayers: lock them away for 25 years to life ("three strikes and you're out" laws as in certain states of the U.S.)?<BR><BR>As every other country in the industrialized world, Switzerland has its share of problems: unemployment, drugs, integration of immigrants. Believe me, I do not like graffitis, or rather tags, everywhere, but they are not a problem that seriously compromises our well-being.<BR><BR>Basel is the center of a metropolitan area of roughly 600'000 people spread over three countries. In spite of all graffitis they have achieved an excellent quality of life. I would not hesitate to walk home alone across the whole town at 2 or 3 o'clock at night (which I have repeatedly done), a thing I would never even dream of doing in an American city of similar size (El Paso TX, Little Rock AR, Bakersfield CA or Springfield MA, to name a few). Crime rates *are* low, and law enforcement is directed to more serious offences than spraying or tagging (especially, as recuitment of police officers is very difficult due to certain local factors).<BR><BR>I hope you will enjoy our Fasnacht, but be as careful about your wallet or purse or whatever, as you would be in any crowd of 100'000 people on the whole world. Even Switzerland is not all Heidi and pastures and good-natured peasants, a thing it has never been.

Ursula

I am happy it's not all Heidi. How could one live in a place like Disneyland.

Steve Mueller

<BR>Since the early 80's crime has been decreasing in the US and increasing throughout Europe. A variety of government websites can be used to verify this, including the US Dept of Justice (Bureau of Statistics), the UK Home Office, the EU website, etc.<BR><BR>Burglary rates in England are twice those in the US, and robbery rates, are about 1 1/2 times higher in the UK. You are twice as likely to be assaulted in the UK than in the US. Statistics for other parts of Europe (particularly the largest EU members) are not significantly different than the UK numbers. You are more likely to be burglarized, robbed, raped, assaulted, or have your car stolen in Europe than in the US.<BR><BR>Although the US continues to surpass virtually all of Europe for murder rates, there are some caveats. The majority of homocide victims in the US are African-Americans living in economically depressed areas. Nationwide, the white homocide rate in the US is about twice that of the EU. If you exclude inner city homocides, the rates are similar - in other words, I am no more likely to be murdered in my suburban neighborhood than anywhere in Europe.<BR><BR>I think that many Europeans view the US as a dangerous place because they only visit places like Washington D.C, Miami and LA. If the entire country were as unsafe as those places, I'd be terrified as well.

DB

True travellers know how similar most of the world is. However, many tourists go to a small section of a city and assume that the whole city, if not the whole country, is just like that area. I've had so many people tell me how nice Chicago is based on a 10 block section of the gold coast. I will admit that I was surprised to see heroin addicts in Oslo, I fell into the trap of thinking Norway was clean and perfect. Good point about the US too. Most of us on this sight have been blessed with enough wealth to seperate ourselves from about 90 percent of the crime here. Unfortunately there are almost two United States, one for the haves and one for the have nots. You may as well throw out statistics that say you are 4 times more likely to be victim of a crime here. More likely than not you'll either be in an area that is as safe as most of the world, or you'll be in an area that is 8 times as dangerous. Not too much middle ground anymore.<BR>

BTilke

to Get Real, and all the other anonymous posters, I never suggested anywhere that graffiti artists should be locked away for life, etc., etc., I am not "naive to the extreme" and do not believe graffiti can be eradicated. Does that mean the problem can be ignored or that nothing should be done? <BR> Moreover, the graffiti is not confined to "big" cities like Basel. I saw it in towns all over Switzerland, including small towns where tourism is one of the main sources of income. It IS a problem when graffiti ruins centuries old painted buildings, when buildings of relgious and cultural significance are defiled (as in the "F--- everyone" graffiti on the Bern Muster, which someone had attempted to paint over). Some of the people I talked to were depressed and angered over the graffiti on their homes. I started asking people about it if they were around. You don't think it seriously affects the quality of life? Tell that to the old man in Thun, who started to cry when he talked about his efforts to keep his family home free of graffiti, mostly tagging and obscenities, hardly "art". <BR>There's a vast difference between trying to put a curb on graffiti and "3 strikes and you're out." Youths who are convicted of graffiti could be put to working cleaning up the mess they and their friends make, helping spray buildings with anti-graffiti coatings, or even directed to community art projects where their "talents" could be put to productive use. <BR>I never said anywhere that I expected Switzerland to be Heidi land. But the graffiti problem has exploded and it's even worse than it is here in Brussels (which now offers a free graffiti removal program and also anti-graffiti coating program which is having a noticeable effect). <BR>Switzerland DOES like to sell itself as a postcard land. Tourism is one of its main industries. <BR>I've traveled all over Europe and the graffiti in Switzerland was among the worst I'd seen anywhere, which is why I commented on it. Far worse even than in Brussels or Paris. There's no need to be so hypersensitive about admitting it exists--do you really think there's nothing wrong with having your museums, churches, homes, etc., covered with graffiti? If it's a symbol of a deeper problem, deal with that, but deal with the graffiti too.<BR>

Sam

I agree with you views, BTike, I've seen what you describe.<BR>I nearly wept when I saw Nazi-type graffiti on a lovely old church in Pforzheim, Germany, after my German friend assured me that the artists never sprayed more than the train stations...Why insist it is not a problem?<BR>i don't get it.

Phil

It is amazing, to what level of simple-mindedness this thread has sunk.<BR><BR>BTilke:<BR>Of course you did not suggest to lock away these graffiti "artists", but the suggestions you finally made in your last post are not new to us. These measures have been taken, but you will not prevent these offenders from doing the same thing over and over again. And short of turning the country into a police state, you simply cannot post policemen at every street corner to catch sprayers.<BR><BR>And yes, tourism is an important source of income, and the country is advertised abroad. But so are Italy, France, the U.S. and every major destination. Do you really think that the American advertising does not convey mainly positive aspects of your home?<BR>Your approach that Switzerland as a whole should conform to tourism advertising IS naive, especially as you seem to be a journalist.<BR><BR>Nobody in this thread suggested that graffitis are not a nuisance, and I dislike them intensely. But I agree with former posters that there are more important issues to be addressed than cleaning up a few fa&ccedil;ades to please the odd travel writer.<BR><BR>Sam:<BR>It is a bit thick to get lectured about Nazi graffitis from the United States, which is a haven for Nazi websites having been shut down in Europe.<BR><BR>Of course these demonstrations of the extreme right are disgusting and deeply disturbing, but Germany (and Switzerland) have strong anti-Nazi and anti-racist legislations, wehereas in the U.S. even Nazis like the Aryan Nation benefit from free speech.<BR><BR>yours<BR><BR>Phil.

xxx

For those who think that graffiti is harmless, know this -- it is a symptom of restlessness and rebellion from those who have no stake in a society. Third World immigrants who provide the cheap labor for industrial nations view the landscape and buildings as something they'll never own, and the society as something they'll never be accepted in, so they revolt. <BR><BR>Riots among immigrant and impoverished populations in Los Angeles, Britain and elsewhere during the past decade are a more serious symptom of the same problem. And finally, attacks on the symbols of capitalism and the war machine which perpetuates it (ie, the WTC and Pentagon) illustrates the frustration and anger that the "developing" world feels for the industrialized world and its willingness to exploit anyone and everything in pursuit of ever increasing wealth.<BR><BR>In America, we still have enough space to "get away from it" by moving to the suburbs or rural areas. DB's quote,<BR>"Most of us on this sight have been blessed with enough wealth to seperate ourselves from about 90 percent of the crime here," illustrates this mentality. They ran out of space in Europe centuries ago, so residents cannot simply "get away" from graffiti and crime and Third World immigrants by moving to undeveloped areas, like Americans can. The average European no doubt feels a great deal of resentment toward the vandalism and destruction of their cities and even their culture, because they cannot escape it as Americans -- who are all descendants of immigrants themselves -- can. <BR><BR>

BTilke

..But I agree with former posters that there are more important issues to be addressed than cleaning up a few fa&ccedil;ades to please the odd travel writer...<BR><BR>A few? Phil, If it had been only a few, I would not have even commented. I expect to see some graffiti these days. But this was rampant. You could walk through several blocks where virtually EVERY building had been sprayed heavily, including every building of historic significance or buildings which were obviously well tended by their owners. <BR><BR>Graffiti isn't harmless. In addition to causing expensive damage to private or public property, it also hardens attitudes, particularly against immigrants. <BR><BR>Apparently, one can only say good things about Switzerland on this forum. Several posters here claim that Switzerland is not Heidiland and people are naive to expect it, but at the same time, there's a hypersensitivity to any criticism.

phil

BTilke:<BR><BR>Let me give you some information: 25% of the residents at Basel are *not* Swiss, i.e. for the most part immigrants. The vast majority of them has integrated quite well. With that proportion of foreign residents, you can hardly talk about hardened attitudes against them, otherwise, there would be virtually no foreigners about.<BR><BR>Do you really believe, that graffiti have a part in "hardening the attitude" against foreigners, if I tell you that in Basel trafficking of heroin is dominated by nationals from country X, trafficking of cocaine by residents from countr Y and trafficking of designer drugs by residents from country Z (you may look up the relevant data at the Basel official website www.bs.ch under Drogenbericht).<BR><BR>Just believe me, graffiti are disturbing, ugly and difficult to remove, but the impact they have on Swiss people's attitude to immigrants is negligible compared to the drug problem.<BR><BR>One more thing: nobody on this forum has so far flamed you because of your criticism of Switzerland. The general mood seems to be that you have blown a problem far out of its proportion and are unwilling to accept criticism of your point of view.<BR><BR>Phil

JJ

Where do you think the drugs are grown and manufactured? Third World countries. They also have to get from point A to point B somehow, so of course immigrants and Third World nationals are involved.<BR><BR>What does that have to do with immigrants who are destroying the beauty of many European cities with their mindless vandalism?

Sam

btilke,<BR><BR>Now I have Phil calling me American and telling me I don't have a right to comment on the Nazi graffiti I saw in Germany.<BR>The simple fact is some want to go on and on about the problems in other countries but immediately lose their good natures when problems at home are mentioned.<BR>Does this mean that as an Irish citizen I may only discuss the graffiti in Dublin?<BR>Graffiti IS ugly and it's really ugly when it's your home or your church that has been forever scarred with this rubbish.<BR>I should hope that the police are not so busy that they cannot protect the property of their citizens.<BR>And I think if one cannot post here without calling names and without going off on long tangents about how an American would be"thick" to talk about the Nazis, then one should not post here.<BR>

ThomasR

I spend Christmas this year with my familie in Stuttgart, first time I'd been back to Germany in three years (I live in Wales).<BR>I was deeply saddened at what the "taggers" as you call them had done to Stuttgart and prevailing areas. <BR>In the local papers were the stories of graffiti sprayers in Cologne and Heidelburg.<BR>I know it's not the baddest crime but it needs to be stopped. <BR>It hurts the peoples not only the tourists.<BR><BR>

Ute

I have seen this graffiti in the German railways and I have seen this Nazi symbols as well.<BR>I was raised in Trier and I can tell you used to be that Germany didn't permit this propaganda but it gets popular with the present generation.<BR>I don't know what is the answer to this, or the same in Switzerland. <BR>We can learn from other countries who have curbed this vandalism.<BR>Learning in the schools perhaps. When I was a girl I know the parents were called in on a boy who had scratched a swastica on the sidewalk. <BR>

Capo

In regard to JJ's comment, did I miss something on this thread (or elsewhere); is there anything (e.g. police reports, news reports, etc.) that says immigrants are more responsible for graffiti than non-immigrants? <BR><BR>*Seems* to me graffiti is more of a problem of adolescents (likely mostly males) and misguided adolescent energy, than it is of immigrants.

yuk

I am sure that the person who started this thread had no idea what direction it would take !It was I believe an observation similar to the one I made about graffiti in Spain.It's a very recent and ugly phenomenon.I hope images from USA were not the inspiration.Europe first needs to come up with restricting the sale of spray paint.Does anyone remember when in USA we began locking it up in stores and would not sell it to minors? It really helped with the subways in New York and Chicago.Here in Arizona it has just about disappeared-there was a group that just stayed on it, answered the info giving location of the latest graffiti,kept up with painting over it. When Los Angeles hosted the Olympic Games,lots of places such as overpasses were painted by the talented artists and it looked great!The saddest sight in Spain was graffiti in Toledo on the wall of the little church that has El Greco's Burial of the Count of Orgaz.<BR>Wake up Europe and do something please!

Milly

My family and I were shocked seeing all the graffiti in Berlin two years ago. It was our first trip to Europe in several years and we hadn't heard how prevelant tagging has become. It was everywhere, it seemed. Unfortunately, that remains our first impression of Berlin--then we remember all the good things. We kept saying how thankful we don't see that much in our city. How sad that so many old historic buildings and churches have withstood the ravages of time, weather, war, and get so defaced now.

xxx

"...is there anything (e.g. police reports, news reports, etc.) that says immigrants are more responsible for graffiti than non-immigrants..."<BR><BR>Wake up and drop the ridiculous PC facade. European and American cities alike are suffering from the vandalism caused by recent immigrants, who as someone else astutely observed, have no stake in a society and therefore feel practically compelled to deface and defile it. And yes, many clandestine news cameras in Los Angeles alone have caught these immigrants on tape, defacing public and private property. The language of the graffiti is also a BIG clue to all of you PC types.

BTilke

Since the Swiss seem determined not to take any serious action against graffiti, I suppose we can look on the bright side: businesses are spending millions of Swiss francs on removing graffiti and anti-graffiti coatings (developed by Swiss companies in direct response to the problem). I suppose it helps gives jobs to some people. And for them, the money should keep rolling in--as the author of a book promoting graffiti in Switzerland noted: "no building or vehicle is safe from defacement!"<BR>