Graduation trip itinerary help
 

First let me say, I LOVE this forum! I have been able to narrow down a trip I am planning for my daughter by reading posts and answers on an almost daily basis.

My daughter graduates this spring and as a gift to her for her hard work, I have managed to save enough to take her to Europe this spring. Pretty big undertaking for a single mom. We fly into Frankfurt on 28 March 2007 and fly back to the states on 10 April 2007.

I know this is an ambitious itinerary, but I need a bit of help tweaking it so it is doable within our time frame and our budget, which is $3,500 not including flights, which are already purchased.

We plan on buying rail passes, going from Frankfurt to the Rhine area, then on to Paris, from Paris to Venice, Venice to Florence, then on to Rome, Naples and the Amalfi coast before heading back to Rome for our flight out on 10 April 2007

We plan on getting on a train immediately after landing in Frankfurt the morning of the 28th and heading to the Rhine area where she is interested in seeing the castles along the river. From what I understand, we can see a lot in a day and a half in this area.

We need a good place to stay the evening of the 28th that will put us in a good position to be headed to Paris the afternoon of the 29th.

We have already made reservations in Paris at Hotel du champ de mars for the 29th and 30th. Here is where I am completely at a loss. We will be meeting some friends at CDG the evening of 1 April 2007 who are coming in from Dublin on an Air France flight at 8:20 PM. The female half of this couple will be traveling with us for the remainder of the trip.

I was hoping to get on a night train going in the general direction of Venice that evening. I am having difficulty getting any information that far in advance for night trains. I have read so much and have been to many of the main train websites, but I am really either overtired of looking at this stuff, or I am not as smart as I thought I was!

I was hoping to be in Venice the 2nd and 3rd of April, then heading to Florence on the 4th. Rome would be on the 5th and 6th of April, with our remaining 4 days divided up with Naples, Sorrento and the Amalfi coast.

Again, I know this is an ambitious itinerary, I am not looking for someone to tell me to slow down or that it can't be done. I am just looking for some solid advice on train schedules and some nice places to stay that won't break the bank and will give my daughter a taste of Europe so she can save for a trip back when she gets older.

I appreciate any advice I get

I'm afraid you're not going to like a lot of the advice you'll get - which is that with only 12 days on the ground trying to do 7 different places in 3 different countries will be more of a nightmare than a vacation.

I understand that your time and funds are limited but with the itinerary you're proposing you will spend most of you time just traveling from one place to another - rather than actualy seeing or doing anything.

In order to enjoy the trip - and really SEE anything I would do no more than 3 cities - and would consider low cost flights versus train - depending on which you pick. Also - I would not do the Amalfi coast in March - since it's still off-season, many things may be closed or on short hours - and it's too cold for beach/swimming.

Given that Frankfurt and Rome are fixed you might head straight south - to do Venice, Forence and Rome. Or - if you really want to see the Rhine, then head from there to Florence and Rome.

You say you don't want to hear "it is too much" -- but it definitely is. Sorry.

And another consideration - since you are on a fairly limited budget -- All that hectic traveling makes for a much more expensive trip. Rail passes are not cheap. Staying a lot fewer places and just buying point-to-point tix will save you a TON of money.

I would spend the night of the 28th in St. Goar, on the Rhein. It is 5 1/2 hours by train from there to Paris. There is a lovely ruined caastle above the town, and you can catch a boat for a short ride on the river. If you want to be closer to Paris, Koln would be 4 hours from Paris.

As for night trains to Venice, the Swiss train site gives schedules for 1 April. The "true" night train (no changes) from Paris to Venice departs at 20:28, so there is no way your friend can make that one. There is a train departing Gare de Lyon at 21:14, with a change in Dole-Ville, and then overnight to Venice, arriving at 9:28 am the next morning. But if your friend arrives at CDG at 20:20, I don't know if there is time to get to Gare de Lyon to catch this train, which leave less than an hour later. What if the flight is late arriving? A later train leaves at 22:43 from Paris-Est, goes overnight to Zürich where you change for Milan early the next morning, and then change again there for Venice. This option doesn't get you to Venice until 2 pm.

It's going to be tough to keep to your schedule. I know you didn't ask for advice, but I strongly suggest you slow down a bit, and drop southern Italy from your itinerary. You're going to be spending most of your time riding trains, I'm afraid.

For novice rail travelers like your daughter i advise getting the free European Planning & Rail Guide (free at www.budgeteuropetravel.com) as it contains a wealth of info for planning a rail trip...or any trip for that matter. If thinking a Eurail Select pass keep in mind that such passes bought before the end of 2006 and used within six months will get an extra day free - on six day or longer passes - you also lock in the current Eurailpass price in case they jack prices up again, like they just did, with the tumble of the dollar. Seems you'd want a 4-country Eurail Select Pass good in Germany, France, Switzerland and Italy, though you need not go thru Switzerland to get to Italy - so a 3 country pass. Keep in mind the 7pm rule on night trains, if boarding after 7pm you put the next day in as your unlimited travel day, in effect getting gratis from 7pm to midnight - so one day when planning on number of flexible days needed.

Do Italy or do Germany, certainly not both. For that amount of time, Venice-Florence-Rome w/a side trip or two will be plenty.

Okay, so I understand that we will be doing too much.

I am fixed in Frankfurt, Paris and Rome. Would it still be too much if we went straight from Paris south towards Rome and cut Venice out of the trip?

Thanks for all of the help thus far.

That is a much better plan. Castles along the Rhein, then Paris to meet your friend, and then south to Florence and Rome. Do you still want a night train on the 1st of April?

No night train if we do not go to Venice. We would likely just stay in Paris one more night and leave the next day.

Oh, thank goodness, you changed your mind. I was in the process of doing the travel math and almost 40% of your total budget was going to be spent on travelling between cities...leaving you with a very skimpy amount for everything else! Try the Hotel Sonya in Rome: my (just graduated) daughter and I stayed there a couple of years ago, very clean, tidy, well-serviced and located and run by young Roman sisters with a fabulous huskie named Sonya. The Opera is right acrosss the square and we got rush tickets.

Thank you for the comments so far. I have done more research on Rail Passes, and it appears that a 3 country 7 day saver pass for the 2 of us should be 768.00 Iwill purchase those before the end of the year to hedge against any price increase.

Thank you LJ for the Rome tip, I will check it out. Can anyone else give me some hotel or B&B info for the Rhein area, Florence, Sorrento and Rome that will fit my budget of 115 euro per night? Close proximity to rail stations would be best.

Thanks

Sorrento?? I thought you were just limiting your itinerary to the Rhine, Paris, Florence, & Rome !!! In 12 days, I think even this modified itinerary (without Sorrento) is to much.

We were in Tuscany in '04 at the same time you'll be there. It snowed. Trees were not starting to bud yet, and locals were still picking tulips from the fields. It was still winter then. The Amalfi coast is on about the same latitude as Chicago, although the Med is warmer than the great lakes.

Save Sorento & the Amalfi coast for June through Sept. If you still want a breakneck pace, add Venice back in to replace Sorrento.

Before you do anything, research the train & air schedule and do an exact itinerary based on actual departure & arrival times between the places you want to viit. I think you'll find that WAY too much of your time will be spend getting from A to B and not much time enjoying A & B.

We've all been in your shoes at one time in our travel lives, and we have learned a lot from our early mistakes. We're trying to pass that on to you.

Stu Dudley

If you wish to follow my suggestion to spend your first night in St. Goar on the Rhein, try the Hotel am Markt:
http://www.hotel-am-markt-sankt-goar.de/

Click the British flag for English. Double rooms (with bath) are 59 euro; 70 euro with a view.

For Florence, try the Hotel Dali (www.hoteldali.it).

Good luck and Happy Travels

Hi Threerohdes,

In 2004 I took a Gap year between Cegep and University. I saved and saved the entire year and then took a 5 week european vacation with 3 other friends (whom I no longer speak to since the trip.....ahhhh I know, I learned the hard way about travelling with people you do not know 100%). We did 7 countries in 5 wks and we were pooped at the end. If I had to do it all over again I would definitely cut out a lot of cities because I missed the true experience. Last May I spent 8 days in only Paris and now I can say that I have "been" to Paris because I have had the time to experience it. It's nice to come home and say you've been to "X,Y,Z" but you will come home and feel like you "jipped" yourself out of an experience.
I should be roughly the same age as your daughter (24) and trust me she will love Europe wether she gets to see 10 cities or 3.....it will take her breath away.
If I were you I would definitely not do any more than Rhine/Paris/Florence/Rome. You will love it, and you will still feel like you have seen a tremendous amount of stuff!
I wish you a fantastic trip.....it's so nice of you to do this for her. She will definitely appreciate it!!
Make sure to post a trip report to let us know how it went!

Layla

Would you and your daughter consider staying in a convent in Rome? They do double rooms for much less than E115, which would leave you some extra money to use elsewhere. There are lots around the Vatican and some elsewhere in Rome. You usually have a curfew of 11 or 12 at night.

In Florence I love Soggiorno Battistero - it's a B and B right on the Duomo square which is within your budget. It's spotlessly clean, the owners are very friendly (and speak English) and you wake up to a view of the Duomo. The only thing to be aware of is that you have to walk up three flights of stairs to get there.

As others have said, skip Sorrento this time. It's very pretty in summer, but without good weather there's not so much to do. Personally I would cram in a visit to Venice because it's an amazing place to see, even if it is only for a day, but I know I have a higher tolerance of busy itineraries than lots of others on this board.

Sorry for the double post but I noticed you're planning to buy a rail pass - have you checked whether it is the cheapest option for your itinerary? You can get prices for individual journeys from the german railway website - www.deutschebahn.de and the italian railway website - www.trenitalia.it, and they're often very reasonable.

threerohdes---

you might put your itinerary into www.railsaver.com and see if you actually need passes. I can't vouch for the accuracy of their prices, but I put in Frankfurt-Paris-Florence-Rome, and it said your tickets (2d class) would be $294 and your daughter's (2d class, youth) would be $221---cheaper than buying passes. It also said that if you want passes, a 2-country(Fance-Italy) one would be best (I don't know if this allows you to go through Switzerland, though). Try it yourself, and click the "only if it saves me money" option.

I searched a completely different option:

Train Frankfurt to Paris
Fly Paris to Bologna (MyAir.com)
Train Bologna to Florence (1 hr)
Train Florence to Rome

Total 188 euro ($241) per person (I didn't search for student fares).

I meant to add:

The train Paris to Florence looks to take about 10 hrs. The MyAir flight leaves paris around 2pm, arrives in Bologna at 3:40pm. Even allowing for transfer to the station, you should be in Florence by 6:30.

One other thought. Your friend is flying Dublin to Paris just to meet you and catch a train to Italy. Have you considered having her fly directly to Italy and meet you there? (Ryanair flies Dublin to Bologna---different airport, but you could meet in town at the train station.)

Per the above suggestions - PLEASE do some more thinking and i nvestigation of this before you rush out and spend any more money.

People have lots of ideas that can help you make this trip more enjoyable - and waste les time/money on transit.

Have you sat down and done a day by day itinerary? With realistic travel times, including cheking in and out of hotels, making your way to the train station, etc? You still seem to keep trying to stuff more locations in (and Sorrento really has nothing much to see in March). If you just want to see Pompeii I would do it as a long day trip from Rome - saving all the time and money of switching hotels yet again. As it is you have only 1 or 2 nights - which means 1 real day sightseeing - anywhere.

And you must realize that you can still get bad weather this time of year - that can delay transit - and getting around in Germany, France and Italy north of Rome.

And the idea of having your friend meet you in Italy is a great one - saving time and money treking to and fro Paris. Or - if you must see Paris - look at low cost flights between 3 cities and forget the interminable training to and fro (believe me sitting on a train for 10 hours is NOT how you want to spend a whole day in europe).

<It also said that if you want passes, a 2-country(Fance-Italy) one would be best (I don't know if this allows you to go through Switzerland, though)>

Enzian, yes the France-Italy pass does allow you to go via Switzerland but only on the overnight Artesia trains and not on any other trains. Artesia trains, Paris to Venice for example are run by French and Italian railways and you only need a pass for these two countries to use them. Go in the day you'd have to pay a fairly hefty extra price for the Swiss portion with this pass. Of course the quickest Paris-Italy day route is via only France and Italy - to Milan, not going thru Suisse at all.

PalenqueBob---what is that latter route? All the schedules I looked at from Paris to Milan went either through Bern and Brig, or Geneva and Brig---no way to avoid Switzerland.

And even with a multi-country pass that includes Switzerland, there may be extra charges---last time my sister's family had a 2-country pass (France and Switzerland), and they were charged extra for the line from Brig going east---it must be a private railway there. (Berner Oberland Bahn?) It was 30 euro extra for the three of them to ride 15 minutes to Betten.

I always recommend BudgetEuropeTravel.com for train schedule and fare questions. You can call their 800 number and they are very knowledgeable and extremely helpful in determining a workable plan, and can sell tickets to you with just a small S&H fee added on. I'd definitely check with them before purchasing any railpass.

Have fun with your daughter. It will be the trip of a lifetime for you both. Congratulations for putting it together for her graduation.
:)>-

Thank you all so much for making me slow down and pare this trip down to a more reasonable schedule.

What I was trying to do was hit all of the places my daughter said she HAD to see. She maintains that she does not care about the breakneck speed, but I am making an executive decision. Mom is too old for this.

Air from Paris to Florence makes sense, I will be doing more research to see if that will work best for us. Sorrento is thrown out of the mix. Paris HAS to stay.

I will do some more tinkering on the train pass thing, I think I am just really confused at this point, but I better get it hammered out now instead of later.

I called the experts at BudgetEuropeTravel, and they are sending me the guide AND the train schedule that they normally only send if you purchase rail tickets from them. They were very helpful and I would recommend them to anyone else as confused as I am.

I am checking out the hotel, B&B, and convent recommendations you have given me, and will fill you in when I get it all planned.

Thanks again!

One little detail question: do you really have to go to CDG to meet your friend? It will take you away from spending precious time in Paris sightseeing that eveing. Could she just meet you somewhere in the city? Just a thought.
:)>-

It appears that we will be staying at a hotel close to the airport. By the time her plane gets in at 8:20 PM, my daughter and I will likely just be starting to head to the hotel. She can meet us there.

We will be heading out of CDG the next day on a really cheap (9.99 E)MYAIR flight to Bologna. I have also checked point to point tickets and have found that yes, they are a better option for us other than Eurail passes.

This is why this board is so great, it forces one to take a hard look at what is planned and then see what is really feasible.

You are well on your way to getting a good travel plan together. My daughter studied in Florence last semester, and she really liked visiting Bologna a few times.

Search this forum and ask specific city questions as you go, like hotels in Rome, etc. After determining my destination plan and my 'must-see' list, I have relied on fodorites' advice in going to Europe three times myself, and have not been disappointed with any recommendations I've received here.

Your plan to fly into Frankfurt and home from Rome is a good way to maximize your vacation time.

Have fun planning!
:)>-

Just a note to say that, IMO, this thread is a reflection of what this board is all about: A novice traveler who wants to do it all given excellent advice to slow down and smell the Italian/French roses! And then she does the wise thing and listens to experience.

You guys are the best!
Linda

Yep, I agree.

I guess my biggest problem was wanting to give my daughter the trip of a lifetime. Of course, it will be an exciting trip for me as well, as I have not been to Europe either. I need to balance the wanting her to have a good time, and me needing to be the voice of reason as well.

Reading these boards gives one an enormous amount of information, but until one really figures out what is possible, it can get overwhelming.

Hi T,

Much better itinerary.

>I guess my biggest problem was wanting to give my daughter the trip of a lifetime. <

Let her save that for the honeymoon. :)

((I))

"I guess my biggest problem was wanting to give my daughter the trip of a lifetime."

That's not a problem, it's any mother's dream. Go for it! No matter the cities you visit, the hotels, restaurants,etc., it will certainly be a trip you will both always treasure.
:)>-

Ira,

She says she is never getting married! LOL!

I agree with everyone that it's great you have cut down your itinerary. My one question is, why are you staying by the airport in Paris? Paris is beautiful at night. You don't want to have to go back to a hotel by the airport! Please reconsider this...

I wondered the same thing. If possible, couldn't your friend take a cab to your Paris hotel? After landing at 8:20, by the time she arrived you and your daughter could have had a nice dinner in Paris. And there is <i>nothing</i> to do around the airport!

If you do stay at CDG, try bidding for the Sheraton on Priceline. My sister got it in September for 110 euros. It's the only hotel right in the airport terminal.

Trust me when I say that this trip will be the beginning of many to Europe for your daughter. I am so glad that others recommended the cheap airfares-take the time to enjoy some of these cities and arrive in the new one without being exhausted. Use that time and money on a great dinner together.Besides-if they are late due to weather or mechanical, you have lost a whole evening waiting around.My daughter and I travel alot overseas and in Paris we LOVE Hotel Monge(check out on tripadvisor.com) and in Rome we LOVE Hotel Aberdeen. Both are in great locations,very clean, wonderful and helpful staff and usually under 95 euros at that time of the year.Enjoy the journey!

My daughter and I will be staying at the airport our last evening in Paris. My friend comes in on the 8:20 flight from Dublin. She can make her way to the airport hotel on her own, my daughter and I will meet her there after our last evening in Paris.

Trust me, we plan to take full advantage of our last evening in Paris!

Can anyone give me a good idea on what to do with our luggage after we check out of the Hotel du champ de mars? We will be running around all day and don't want to worry about dragging our stuff with us. Suppose we could just have them store it at the hotel for a fee?

&gt;&gt;Can anyone give me a good idea on what to do with our luggage &lt;&lt;

We've left our luggage at the hotel many times. They've never charged us for this service. They usually have a closet to stash it in.

Stu Dudley