cybertraveler

Hello fellow travelers,

This is a follow-up to that Seize the Day trip that has evolved into France/Switzerland. Yesterday, our flights dropped in price by a total of $400 for our family of 4, so I snatched them up! We fly JFK to CDG and return Nice to JFK: great flights!

I’ll be traveling with DH and our two teenage sons, 17 and 15. They have traveled throughout Italy last summer for a month, and they enjoyed visiting museums, seeing art and architecture and just generally experiencing the culture.

So here's our rough itinerary:

-<b>Fly into CDG, stay in Paris at Hotel de Lutece on Ile St Louis</b>. DH and I stayed here before, and loved it. We have reservations for 5 nights but may switch to 4 nights, based on trains...

-<b>Train to Geneva</b>: In looking into booking our trains on scnf, I like to use the french version of the site. I believe I've read in the past that it is least expensive that way. I'm fairly good at reading French, and I've booked this way before.

Here's my dilemma: if we travel on Monday, I can get tickets from Paris to Geneva in 2nd class (which appears to have reserved seats? I hope? ) for 192E. If we travel on Sunday, the same trip only costs 148E. Traveling on Sunday would mean only 4 nights in Paris, and would give us 8 or 9 nights in Switzerland (still negotiable).
I signed up for alerts when tickets go on sale, but I think we’re within the 120 day window already.
Would you recommend shortening Paris to save the money, or stay with the 5 nights?

-<b>Switzerland</b>: at this point about 8 or 9 days.
I've been reading everything I can find about Switzerland, and I'm overwhelmed by the amount of things to do in such a small country! I've plotted out cities on Google Earth, trying to come up with an intelligent itinerary, but so far it's still very rough.

Here are some of the things we’d like to do in Switzerland:
-stay in quaint hotels with views over ancient bridges framed by majestic mountains
-visit Chateau Chillon
-take the Golden Pass railroad
-visit Gruyere and perhaps the cheese factory, but definitely eat the cheese
-take the Chocolate Express, and again perhaps visit the factory, but more interested in medieval towns, gorgeous vistas and eating the chocolate (preferably dark ☺)
-ride on lake steamboats for touring
-see beautiful glaciers from afar (we have plenty of snow and ice in upstate New York; can’t think we’ll want to see more in July, but I might be wrong)
-I might like to look at watches…not Rolex level, but can you get a good deal on watches there?
-do any number of things I haven’t discovered yet…we’d love suggestions!

Here are some towns that I think we'd really enjoy:
-Lugano: I know it's not very convenient, but it looks so beautiful. Is it sensible to try to stay 2-3 nights here? It seems a bit out of the way from the other spots I'd like to see.
-Lucerne: This looks beautiful and a little better located for seeing other towns. Would this be a good spot as a base for 2-3 nights?
-Montreux or Vevey as a place to stay (we’ll miss the Montreux Jazz festival, so we wouldn’t have to worry about the crowds then) This looks like an area with a lot to see nearby.
-Others people have mentioned on the forums are Locarno, Neuchatel, Geneva, Nyon, Murten, Morges…the list of quaint towns seems endless! Can anyone help sort out the most enjoyable as far as scenic beauty, medieval architecture and things to do?
-Based on what I’ve read, and the fact that it’s somewhat further out, I’m inclined not to include Zurich. We’d prefer to spend more time in quaint areas. However, if it’s a “must see” please let me know.

Here’s my Swiss dilemma:
Where and in what order should we stay to make the most of our time in Switzerland? Would you recommend starting in Geneva or nearby, then heading to Lucerne, down to Lugano and back to Geneva to catch a train to Avignon?

-<b>Train to Avignon, pick up rental car, stay in St Remy for 6 or 7 nights.</b>
This is a change from what we've done on previous trips, but I thought it might be nice to just base in one spot for a while. We have reservations at Hotel Sous Les Figuers, where I have tried (and failed) to get reservations in the past. It looks heavenly!

Here's another question: is that too long to stay in St Remy? Are there enough interesting day trips to fill that time? Would you recommend shortening it to 5 days, and adding time back to the Switzerland part of the trip?

Could anyone recommend some towns to visit nearby? We’ve seen Les Baux, but will return with our boys. We’d like to see Arles, possibly Nimes and Orange; not too sure about Avignon. We’re not that interested in the Camarque.

-<b>Drive to Vence or St Paul de Vence and stay for 2 nights</b> before returning home from Nice.

People have recommended Vence, and it looks beautiful. Does anyone know how long it takes to get to the Nice airport from Vence? We have stayed in St Paul de Vence before and absolutely loved Le Hameau. We can return there happily, but are willing to try a new spot as well.

So overall, I’m wondering if we should shorten St Remy part of the trip and add to Switzerland, or if you think it’s set up pretty well the way I have it. As well as any suggestions on Switzerland!

Thank you very much for all of the advice on my previous postings!

cybertraveler

ttt

swandav2000

Hi cybertraveler,

With only eight nights, I would have only two bases in Switzerland so that you have the time to see and enjoy all that you want to do, and I would make your bases Montreux/Vevey and then Luzern.

You should go from Paris to Luzern via Basel; the trip takes about 4h45.

Luzern will give you the mountains, lakes, medieval buildings and ancient bridges that you want to see. It also has medieval fountains and is, yes, a good spot to visit the other lakeside towns like Weggis, Vitznau, and Brunnen.

The take the train to Spiez and to Zweisimmen and get onto the scenic Golden Pass rail line. Ship your luggage separately using Fast Baggage (check in by 09.00 and pick it up after 18.00 -- however, the luggage service in Montreux closes at 18.00 so ship the bags to Vevey). Stop off in Gruyeres to see the medieval village (which is stunning if heavily crowded in the summertime) and in Broc-Fabrique to see the Cailler chocolate factory. Continue on to Montreux/Vevey to collect your bags and check into your hotel.

From Montreux, visit Lutry (village in the Lavaux vineyards that has a signposted walk of its medieval buildings), Murten, Morges, and Chillon. I would skip Neuchatel (a nice city, but a city, and the lake isn't as spectacular as Lake Geneva in my opinion), and I would also skip Geneva. Or you could see Geneva for a morning while you are enroute to Avignon -- just put your luggage in lockers and see the city.

Then from Montreux, you are nicely situated for the hop to Avignon.

Have fun as you plan!

s

PalenQ

Well with all that train and boat travel in Switzerland a Swiss Pass IMO would be a great deal for you. An 8-consecutive day pass would be a great deal, covering not only trains, including specialty trains like the Golden Pass but lake boats and city trams and buses plus getting free entry to 400+ Swiss museums and castles, etc.

Anyway for lots of great info on Swiss trains and passes, etc I always spotlight these IMO fantastic sources - www.swisstravelsystem.com; www.budgeteuropetravel.com and www.ricksteves.com.

neckervd

Paris - Geneva: I wouldn't worry about a price difference of 44 EUR only. But you may check the fares to Lausanne, Neuchatel, Berne, Interlaken, Basel and Zurich too.

For the other points, I fully second swanda:

Chillon castle is at Montreux. The Chocolate Express starts and ends in Montreux and includes the visit of the Cailler chocolate factory at Broc, the castle, the medieval city and the cheese diary of Gruyeres. Some of the best more than 100 year old steamboats ply lake Geneva between Montreux and Geneva. (The other big steamboat fleet is on Lake Lucerne).The Golden Pass train links Montreux with Lucerne.
Conclusion: Montreux is a must

If you want to see Lucerne and Lugano or Locarno too, enter Switzerland via Basel, choose Lucerne as you first base and visit Lugano/Locarno in day trips from there. Take then the Golden Pass train to Montreux and reach Avignon via Geneva.

cybertraveler

I'm overwhelmed by your generous help! Thank you so much for helping to straighten out our journeys through Switzerland. I'm beginning to feel like I know what to do.

swanda and neckervd, I truly appreciate your suggestions on how to enter Switzerland and make our way through the places we'd like to visit. It certainly sounds reasonable to do with just two bases in Luzern and Montreux, and it's great to know that the largest steamboat fleets are based in those two places. Connecting via the Golden Pass train will be wonderful.

PalenQ, I'll definitely be looking into the Swiss Passes, and the suggestion for the 8 day pass is most helpful. Lucky us: DS#2 is only 15, so he'll travel free!

neckervd, I was interested in your suggestion about doing Lugano or Locarno as a day trip. Is there a certain train that you'd recommend for the trip? Do you have any idea how long it takes? We'd really like to see those places, but are they that different from the other places we'll be visiting? I guess I'm wondering if the journey back and forth is especially scenic, and if the time would be well spent.

I have a hotel that I'm interested in for Luzern, but nothing yet for Montreux. Can anyone recommend a place where the four of us could stay for around 300 Euros/night? We'd love a clean, cozy hotel with a fantastic view and breakfast included would be a big plus with the boys!

One last question: would you split the time evenly between Luzern and Montreux, or stay longer in one?

Thank you again for any and all assistance!

swandav2000

Hi again,

You haven't said when you'll be travelling, and this will make a difference in the hotel prices. In addition, there is a world-famous jazz festival going on in Montreux for three weeks in July, so that will have a significant impact on your plans, I would think.

I'll also add that many hotels in Europe charge per person, not per room, so crowding everyone into a small room with four beds isn't going to be significantly cheaper. Also, Switzerland uses Swiss Franks (chf), not Euro, and 300 Euro is about 368 chf.

The Hotel Masson, just outside of Montreux in the suburb of Territet, lists a 4-bed room for 300-410 chf in the summertime, while a 2-bed room is 200-270. You can take a taxi to the hotel when you first arrive (cost around 20-25 chf), and after that you can use the town busses for free.

The Hotel Negociants in Vevey is another option, though they say two children must be between 6-12 years old to share the parents' room. A double room there in the summertime is 182 chf. However, the Negociants is in a busy part of the town and has a popular restaurant on its ground floor, so it will be noisy when you open the windows.

Friends of mind recently stayed at the Le Charlot Guest House, just across from the lake in Vevey. However, I don't see their prices on the website.

Otherwise, you can search for hotels at the central site

www.montreux-vevey.com

I hope you find something good!!

s

swandav2000

Oh, about your question.

Normally I would advise folks to spend more time in/near the mountains, so that would mean more time in Luzern. However, since so much of what you want to see and do is near Montreux, I will say that 4 nights at each place will work best in your case.

s

cybertraveler

Thanks, swanda, for the tips on places to stay. I'll definitely check them out. We'll be traveling this July, but won't arrive in Switzerland until the jazz festival is over. The currency will actually work a bit in our favor, so thanks for pointing that out.

I'll post back to let people know what I find. Still glad for any other suggestions!

neckervd

Lucerne - Locarno or Lugano: 2 1/2 hrs by train (one way), trains every 60 min.
You may also take a historic Lake Lucerne steamboat from Lucerne dp 9.12 up to Fluelen ar 11.55 and board your Locarno bound train there (Locarno ar 14.13). You cn also visit the 3 medieval castles and the tiny medieval city center of Bellinzona, shortly before arriving at Locarno.
Locarno and Lugano are both on Lake shores, many subtropicalplants and palm trees. The architecture of towns, churches villages etc. is purely Italian and threfore very different from what you see in other parts of Switzerland.
Boat traffic on both lakes; many cablecars and cableways to viewpoints from where you see the Alps (Mont Blanc, Gran Pariadiso, Matterhorn, Monte Rosa, Bernina, Ortles, etc.) from the South.

Day trips to glaciers and high mountains are possible from Montreux too:
Aiguille du Midi 3842m/12600ft: 3 hrs OW
Glacier des Diablerets 2940m/9650ft: 2 1/2 hrs OW
Mont Fort 3330m/10925ft: 2 hrs OW
Glacier de la Plaine Morte 2935m/9630ft: 2 hrs OW

PalenQ

You may also take a historic Lake Lucerne steamboat from Lucerne dp 9.12 up to Fluelen ar 11.55 and board your Locarno bound train there (Locarno ar 14.13)>

This is the famous William Tell tourist boat and train combo? There are also regular boats throughout the day doing the same.

PalenQ

Swiss Passes or any railpass valid in Switzerland are fully valid on normal boats on Lake Lucerne but if taking the official William Tell Express that ties in with a posh scenic train at Fluelen that takes you to Lugano then there is a heft supplement charged but that does include a full meal on board I believe.

Regular boats are totally covered by a pass.

cybertraveler

Thanks neckervd and PalenQ for the detailed information on possibilities from Lucerne and Montreux. It looks as though we could certainly visit Locarno or Lugano as a day trip from Lucerne, and enjoy the journey as well. Would you recommend one over the other as to which would have the most quaint and beautiful town and architecture?

PalenQ

Neither one IME is quaint - Swiss towns just ain't quaint but spic-and-span squeaky modern clean - they are neat towns that are beautiful in their own way but quaint these ain't.

I would chose Lugano but you cannot go wrong.

swandav2000

Hi cybertraveler,

I once intended to stay in Lugano for a week but left after two nights. I found it to be crowded with traffic and people with some smog, noise, etc. I just didn't find it to be pleasant at all but more like a city.

I visited Locarno for an afternoon; it was smaller and more my style. There were fewer folks, fewer buildings, less traffic, more quiet, etc. I thought the lakeside was more pleasant too, because there wasn't a ribbon of traffic next to it.

Have fun as you plan!

s

PalenQ

I've spent a few days in Lugano off and on and I agree with swandav generally about the city - not the coolest or nicest city but a very pleasant one with yes lots of traffic- but it is a great base - you can take day trips by boat on Lake Lugano, including over to an Italian enclave on Lake Lugano and nice rides on iconic postal buses up into the hills - really nice country.

cybertraveler

Hello and thanks for your opinions on Lugano. It is so hard to tell from photos on a web page what a place is really like. I think we'll skip Lugano, but perhaps Locarno would be a nice choice. Traffic and smog are not what we're looking for!

I'm finalizing hotels at the moment. I was able to book two rooms at Hotel Splendid in Montreux, for more than I'd wanted to spend, but still less than most other places in town. We're still deciding on where to stay in Luzern.

Is anyone familiar with Provence and Côte d'Azur? We have been there once before, and felt that we could have seen much more in the area around St Remy. We had a wonderful stay at Le Mas Perreal near St Saturnin that trip, but we wanted something with a little more happening for the boys this time. So we have 7 nights reserved in St Remy and will use it as our base, then only 2 nights in St Paul before heading home. We have reservations at Le Hameau, where we stayed the last time.

I'm thinking perhaps we should adjust this.

On our first trip to Provence, we visited Rousillon, Gorde, Isle sur la Sorgue, Aix de Provence, Les Baux, and an abbey whose name escapes me at the bottom of a perilously steep and narrow road. We missed Arles and Pont du Gard, which we'd like to see this time. We'd also love to visit more picturesque towns. I'd love to see lavender fields again; which would you recommend nearby?

In Côte d'Azur we visited Nice, Monaco, Eze, Antibes. This time, it would be nice to see Vence and some other towns nearby. Can anyone offer an opinion on which towns to visit near both St Remy and St Paul de Vence? Also, would you recommend keeping the number of days the way we have them, or would you make a change?

Thanks again for your advice and opinions!

PalenQ

I'm thinking perhaps we should adjust this.>

yeh I would split the time exactly with the odd day going to St-Remy.

PalenQ

A great day trip from the French Riviera is to hop the Chemins des fer de Provence - a narrow-gauge train that takes you far into the hinterlands of a Provence very different from the coastal area - a lost-in-time Provence of ancient villages and a rugged Alps-Maritime hilly terrain - the train tracks up a river valley most of the way - it is popular with hikers who hike from one station to another. A great day out - the train is nicknamed Le Train des Pignes - pine trees I guess because it takes you into pine forests.

neckervd

"Lugano: Traffic and smog are not what we're looking for!"
Where did you find that?
The historic city center of Lugano is more or less car free. I'ts clear that there is some road traffic, as in any other town. But it's easy to find hotels in quiet areas. And the touristic sites, churches, boat piers, cableway stations, good restaurants, botanical gardens, etc, aren't along the access roads anyway

As to the (Milan) smog, it begins usually around Mendrisio. Como (and the southern end of Lake Comp) is very often in the smog, but not Lugano!