ssanchez531

My girlfiend and i are turning the big 30 and planning a three week backpacking excursion to Europe from june 2 to june 24th. Im having problem with editing and determining how many days we should stay in each city. It will be our first time there and we plan on seeing the major old historical sites (castles, churches, gov. buildings, palaces), not a big fan of art museums and nature, really into architecture and taking pictures. we will be taking the train mostly and taking advantage of the night train for most cities. hope the forum community can help us out. thanks

june 2 : San Francisco
june 3: arrive Munich around 5pm (3 nights)
june 6: Saltzburg (train, 1 night)
june 7: Vienna (train, 3 nights)
june 10: prague (train, 2 nights)
june 13: berlin (train, 3 nights)
june 16: london (easyjet or ryn air, 4 nights)
june 19: paris (train, 4 nights)
june 24: san francisco

ssanchez531

on a side note i plan on proposing and would love some insight on a perfect place to do so

Michael

Something does not compute. You give yourselves 2 nights in Prague, arriving there the 10th and leaving the 13th. That makes it three nights, which is better than just two.

Proposing: On a nice evening, the ponts des Arts in Paris (it's a pedestrian bridge) with the Institut de France on the left bnak, the Louvre on the right, the Eiffel tower downstream in the distance and the Ile de la Cité upstream.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mksfca/...57623266287099 and the next two pictures.

nytraveler

I know people have different travel styles - but IMHO this is not enough time anywhere. For a trip like this - less is more, You will have a much better chance of enjoying and understanding the places you visit if you do;t rush around so much.

Also - I don;t know if you've checked - but there aren;t night trains between many of these places. I mean - there are trains you can take at night but they often are ot sleepers and require one or more changes. (For instance - from Prague to Berlin is only about 4 hours.)

I think you will find you actually have fewer days most places than you think if you look at tyour train options.

ssanchez531

which cities should i take off my list and where should i add the extra days?

Michael

Time to look at guidebooks.

Rastaguytoday

Agree with Michael.

You have beaucoup time for next June.

You want cheap guide books? Go to www.abebooks.com

They all may not be new, but they're cheap. It's not like history changes.

I'm using them for my upcoming trip to Prague, then along the Danube to Budapest.

annhig

hi ssanchez,

though it pains me to say it, i would lose London. it is the outlier on your itinerary, and it frees up 4 nights for the rest of the trip. I have however added 2 nights in Dresden - it's between Prague and Berlin, so you'll be going through it anyway, there is loads to see and do there by way of history and culture plus boats trips on the Elbe which are lovely.

i have also given you an extra night in Paris as most of the first day is going to be lost in flying there from Berlin.

I would do this:

june 2 : San Francisco
june 3: arrive Munich around 5pm (3 nights)
june 4:Munich
june 5:munich
june 6: train to Salzburg [no t] stay TWO nights
june 7: Salzburg
june 8: train to Vienna via Melk, stay 3 nights
june 9: vienna
june 10: vienna
june 11: train to prague (2 nights)
june 12: prague
june 13: train to Dresden [2 nights]
june 14: dresden
june 15: train to berlin [3 nights)
june 16: berlin
june 17:berlin
june 18; fly to paris( easyjet or ryan air, 5 nights)
june 19-23 : Paris
june 24: san francisco

have a great trip!

AisleSeat

I know you are asking for our opinions so I'll give you mine. I would drop either Berlin or Prague for this trip. Save them for next time. On the proposal place I would set it up with the tour guide on the Sound pf Music tour to be my photographer. I would propose in Salzburg at the SOM gazebo. Then I would have a priest meet us at the SOM wedding church in Mondsee and do the wedding right there after I whip a bridal veil out of my backpack. Have a good trip.

olivieretcerise

I perfectly agree with your plan, ssanchez531. The timing allowed for each of the cities is OK. For people in their thirties, not very much into museums, the time is sufficient for seeing all the hot spots and taking pictures. We are a couple similar to yours and find that your choices are just fine. We've been to all these places, you can find photos and tips on our blog by using the search function (except Paris): http://in-luxembourg.blogspot.com.

For the proposal, a solution would be to arrange something in any of the palaces in Vienna or the Versailles in Paris.

BigRuss

Sheeyoot, when the boss and I were in our 30s we gave a lot more time to each city and we're not museum people either. So I'm thinking this plan is a bit of a mess - far too little time in Prague, too many stops which means too many check-ins and check-outs (Salzburg is daytrippable - 90 miles - from Munich, no overnight needed).

NYtraveler is right, there is not enough distance between Prague/Vienna/Munich/Berlin, etc in that bunching for a night train to make sense. The only way to stretch a 7+ hour train ride in any of your proposed hops is to take a slow local that likely won't be equipped for overnight sleeping.

Munich is best for the Bavarian castles, Berlin is not - it was torn to shreds in WWII so you need to decide for yourself exactly why you want to go other than "we're in the area." London is London and it's easily accessible by air from anywhere, therefore calling it an outlier is a bit odd considering it has the most options of any city in the world for flights.

And what do you mean by "backpacking"? Is that your luggage style or are you using that as a shorthand for staying in cheap hostels with no pre-planning?

Michael

<i>it was torn to shreds in WWII </i>

So was Munich. The difference is that Munich was rebuilt as it was before W.W.II while Berlin did not have that opportunity because it was a divided city, or chose to go the modern route.

ssanchez531

first and foremost i would like to thank everyone with their wonderful suggestions. The main purpose of our trip was to experience old world Europe and be able to see first hand the wonderful architecture europe has to offer.I can go to NY and chicago anytime, so i dont want to see anything modern. I am inclined to drop a city or two, if there is enough to see and do. Would you recommend lessening my stay in Berlin or dropping it altogether, I have researched a little on Dresden and I would really like to add this onto my trip since its on the way to Berlin. And thoughts on buying an all in one eurorail pass or should i buy them from point to point?

adrienne

<< on a side note i plan on proposing and would love some insight on a perfect place to do so >>

The Loreto church in Prague has a stand alone chapel in the middle of the courtyard. It's small and lovely and when I was there no one else came into the chapel. Here's a description of it from my trip report:

"The loggia encircles a courtyard in the middle of which stands a carved marble chapel housing a black Madonna sculpture surrounded by a silver arch with the sun’s rays bursting from it. The interior walls show fresco remnants with the repeating motif of Madonna and Child. Above the small altar two sculpted hands hold a laurel wreath and a spring of laurel. The chapel’s façade is classical with putti, sculptures in niches, and scenes from the Bible in high relief. All this and the carillon chiming the hour".

In a city with beautiful architecture and churches this church stands out. It's far enough away from the castle and old town square to avoid throngs of tourists and bus tours.

http://www.loreta.cz/en/index.htm

nytraveler

Berlin is not a modern city - it is a mixed one. OK - everythng you see will be from the 1940's on - it was flat as a pancake then. the western side was built anew in the US model and looks a lot like Route 17 in New Jersey. The Eastern side was rebuilt much more on the prewar model - but with a lot of heavy duty stalinist architecture thrown in.

Munich was also pretty well a pancake in 1945 - although not the outlying castles. (Almost all large cities in Germany were pancakes in 1945 only a few of the smaller towns retain a signficant amount of original architecture.)

The city that was NOT destroyed in WWII and is still authentic is Prague - almost alone in central europe in having original architecture - since Chamberlain just handed it over to Hitler to prevent WWII. (Not his best idea!) We did a walking tour of the Old Town with a history student - and it was fantastic. Picked it up at the Town Hall, had a group of only 7 and it was almost free. That's where I would spend more time.

Michael

<i>The city that was NOT destroyed in WWII and is still authentic is Prague</i>

Krakow is another one.

<i>OK - everything you see will be from the 1940's on - it was flat as a pancake then.</i>

quite an exaggeration.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mksfca/...th/4311051332/

BigRuss

Michael - Munich is a launching pad for daytrips w/in the OP's interests- castles and Salzburg; Berlin isn't.

To the OP: Point to point v. one pass is an issue you really need to figure out on your own by determining your likely train travel.

Dresden, which was leveled in WWII, is all rebuilt. The Allies obliterated it in WWII so everything is "modern" in age, although not in styling.

Michael's right that Krakow (and Budapest) was not bombed to shreds in WWII but it is way off the trail for you.

You could do worse for a proposal site than the Charles Bridge on a clear night with you looking west and having her framed by the Castle.

Cowboy1968

To be honest, "Old World Europe" can be as easily found in Disneyland as in Munich or Prague. It's a thing of the past, and it's 2012 wherever you go. It has no meaning whatsoever - unless you stray away from the big cities into the smaller villages.
But even there, lifestyle are streamlined to what is the present, and people have the same 42" flatscreens regardless whether you see an old 1700s house or a new fancy bungalow.

Some facades may be authentic, some rebuilt - chances are good that you wouldn't be able to tell which is which.

It would be same as if I was looking for a "real old west experience" in Cheyenne.

Prague is pretty authentic, but also has a highest density of Irish pubs east for Dublin and hosts more stag and hen parties and has more drunk youngsters than Blackpool.

Beautiful Paris looks the way it is because Haussmann brutally cut the boulevards and avenues thru a formerly pittoresque and stinking Paris and gave a fiddler's fart about "old Europe" (and rightly so, even though many people of his time would have called him a butcher).

There are tons of cities and towns in central Europe not destroyed in WWII - from Brugge and Paris to Rothenburg ob der Tauber and Amsterdam. In many places, city planners in the 1950s or 60s did a more thourough job than the bombs, though.
Few countries had a sense of preserving the old towns before the 1980s, except maybe for Poland which gained lots of expertise and praise for rebuilding and renovating.

There is no Old World wonderland anymore, though. Period.

Having said that, you will hardly find a better and more romantic place to propose than on the big ferris wheel in Vienna after dark.. when the carriage has travelled to the top and you have the whole city and beyond lit up...
Or on top of the Eiffel tower.
Pick either, and the answer shall be "Yes!", guaranteed!

annhig

To be honest, "Old World Europe" can be as easily found in Disneyland as in Munich or Prague.>>

you must have been to a different disneyland to the one I've visited, Cowboy. of course Prague and Munich aren't all "olde worlde" [and it was americans who invented that phrase] and wander outside the main tourist drags and you'll find real history and atmosphere, like the bar we went into in Prague where there was a picture of Dubcek on one side of the bar, and a statue of Stalin on the other.

Europe, like most everything else in life, is what you make it.

I do agree with Cowboy about places to propose - either of those should do the trick!

easytraveler

Here's my two cents:

Your itinerary sounds fine for people your age. Is this your first trip to Europe? If so, and you have visited London before, then I'd agree with Ann that you can cut out London and spend all your time on the Continent.

A trip of 3 weeks with 7 cities gives you an average of 3 days per city, not counting travel time. You may or may not want to plan in a "breather" day somewhere in the middle, just in case you want to spend more time in an earlier city or miss a train or have some other reason to need some wiggle room. Too tightly packed an itinerary is not enjoyable.

There are tons of places to propose, but, IMHO, there is nothing more romantic than a proposal with the Eiffel Tower in the background. Hire a photographer - you'll have pictures to cherish for a lifetime. (Of course, the proposal has to be done on bended knee )

Berlin is a wonderful city, espeically for young people. Please don't cut it out of your itnerary. The Allies did a lot of "saturation bombing" during WWII and there was a lot of damage done especially by the ensuing firestorms with heat so intense that they would suck in as much as possible: people, greenery, roofs, - just about anything except the sturdy exteriors of stone buildings. Nothing is more dramatic a reminder of those firestorms than Dresden (that I've seen). That's history, too, maybe not romantic history but very dramatic evidence of history.

In Berlin, one of the interesting bits of history is the stark difference in the way East and West Berlin were reconstructed. That difference is becoming less as the city becomes more integrated, but you should still be able to explore some of the areas to see the difference. The reconstruction in Munich was different - that city kept the old exteriors or reconstructed the exterior walls to be like they were before while everything else behind the exteriors were modernized. Thus, Munich has more of an "old Europe" feel than Berlin.

If you were to skip London, I would suggest adding in days to the Munich-Salzburg portion and add in "Mad" King Ludwig's castles of Neuenschwannstein and Hohenschwangau.

As for train travel, I'd suggest just buying point-to-point tickets. you'll find a lot of advice here on how to get the best deals for certain segments of your journey. A railpass would cost a lot more than careful preplanning of single train tickets, but would most likely give you the ability to hop on any train at any time without being tied down to a particular departure time. Flexibility versus money. However, I'm not too familiar with the passes that are less than a month in duration, so, hopefully, PQ or another Fodorite can give you more precise information.

Going in a "straight line" may seem logical, but there is a night train between Vienna and Berlin (or vice versus). If you take the night train and sleep on it, you save yourself some time and a bit of hotel money.

You didn't say what your travel budget is. Are you planning on staying in hostels? There's a wonderful group of hostels, the Wombat Hostels, that are in three of the cities you will be visiting: Munich, Berlin, and Vienna. They are some of the best hostels in the world. If you have a larger budget, think of staying in a pension, which is my personal choice of "hotel" in Europe.

Enjoy! I'm excited for you!