yes, but since it sounds beautiful and it's near the Ludwig castles as well as Dachau I thought it would be a good base. Yes? No?

This is what I think:
Day 1 Fly into Frankfurt. Rent car. Drive to Rhine/Mosel area for 3 nights
Day 2- Rhine/Mosel area
Day 3- Rhine/Mosel area
Day 4- Drive to Rothenburg for 2 nights
Day 5- Rothenburg
Day 6 - Drive Romantic Road to Fussen for 1 night
Day 7 - Drive to Garmisch for 3 nights
Day 8 - Garmisch/Mittenwald
Day 9 - Garmisch/Mittenwald
Day 10 - Drive to Salzburg for 3 nights
Day 11 - Salzburg
Day 12- Salzburg
Day 13 -Drive to Munich (Turn in car) for 3 nights.
Day 14 - Munich
Day 15- Munich
Day 16- Fly home

Thank you

Pretty much decided against a car. So this is my new plan. I know I can't do it all in one trip but I think I'd like to stay in the interior this time and do cities next time. Need your input! I think it would be best to start in Wurzberg because I see that the G7 summit is in Garmisch June 7 and 8 and I want to be well away from there before all the preparations begin for those arriving heads of state. I wonder if it will be too crowded even then with secret service etc.

Day 1-2 Fly into Frankfurt
Train to Wurzburg check in/beer/explore Wurzburg/Sleep
Day 3 – Wurzburg and day trip to Iphopen
Day 4 - day trip to Bamberg
Day 5 – day trip to Nurenberg
Day 6 – Train to Garmisch – Stop in Rothenburg for day and train on to Garmisch late (??)
Day 7 - Garmisch/Mittenwald and Dachau
Day 8- Garmisch/Mittenwald/Innsbruk
Day 9 – Train to Boppard or Cochem whichever is closer
Day 10 – Rhine
Day 11 – Rhine and Train to Mosel late afternoon
Day 12- Mosel
Day 13 – Mosel
Day 14 - Mosel
Day 15- Train to Frankfurt – spend night by airport OR get late flight out and train directly to airport from Cochem
Day 16 – Fly home

looks good

thanks for your input bilboburgler!

You are traveling a lot on trains so be sure to check the German Twin Railpass - the more days you buy the cheaper they become - a 10 day flexipass (to be used any calednar days for unlimited rides - including S-Bahns in cities) costs p.p. $39/day which even at the rising dollar exchange rate comes out to 26 euros p.p. for completely flexibile hop on any train anytime - no restrictions like on Lander Passes of not using before a certain hour - no restrictions to using slower - much slower at times and much less comfy IME regional trains and 26 p.p. is not that much more for such complete flexibility and comfort than the Lander Tickets which will not cover some on your inter-regional trains - anyway for the ease of use - just go to the station and hop any train anytime (except Thalys trains and InterCity Sprinters, which the average tourist need not ever ride.

Wurzburg, try the Franken wine while there, comes in fancy bottles but make sure it is the Sylvaner grapes not the Muller Thurgau.

Your day trips on days 3-5 will cost €38/day for 4 adults. Days 10-14 will cost €36/day for 4.

On these 7 days alone, the "comfy" train options are extremely rare. You will be using regional trains pretty much all the time. High-speed trains are not going to be a viable choice.

That's €258 total... (split 4 ways = about €60 - less than €9 each per day.)

That leaves you with 3 or 4 longer train rides on which high-speed trains might be a possibility. High-speed train rides can be purchased in advance inexpensively (Saver fares) if you pin down your train times. (Day passes at prices similar to the previous day pass prices might also be an option for some of those trips, by the way.)

The cheapest you are going to do for 4 10-day railpasses is €518 or €2,072 total.

Again, the 7 days I mentioned before will cost €258 with day passes. Those additional 3 or 4 trips using high-speed train options would be cheap; right now I am looking at a price of €129 on high-speed trains for 4 adults between Garmisch and Boppard, €89 for 4 for Würzburg-Garmisch, €49 for 4 for FRA - Würzburg. (I actually would recommend a day pass for this route and regional trains instead.) €267 altogether on the "comfy" trains (at least on whatever comfy trains might be available for those legs.)

So what it boils down to is... do you want to pay about €500 for your train travel or about €2,000? You are going to ride the same trains pretty much, either way. The only sacrifice for the lower price is that you will buy those 3 tickets 92 days in advance and commit to riding certain trains at certain times.

I don't see how anyone could buy or recommend buying railpasses given an itinerary like yours.

OK, I see I underestimated the daypasses by 1 day @ €36. That said, my daypass estimate assumes you are getting on a train somewhere every day. You might not. But even if you do, €36 is a tiny drop compared to the € you would waste on railpasses.

OH GAAWWD I just checked this thread again and realized my numbers were absolutely askew! The very BEST railpass option for 10 days is NOT over €2,000. It is in fact the twinpass option at €1,036 for 4 adults. So with railpasses you are not paying 4 times as much - only TWICE as much as you need to. So same message, but dang do I HATE it when I get numbers that wrong. Sorry.

ok now you have really confused me! There are 2 of us, so splitting doesn't make it any easier! I have a funny feeling this is going to be a big mess.
On another note: the g7 summit june 7. If i'm out of there the week before do you think that will work?
Am I trying to cover too much ground for 1 trip?

"ok now you have really confused me! There are 2 of us..."

Yes. And I'm the really confused one (I was just helping a party of 4 with a similar itinerary and mixed you all up.)

"Am I trying to cover too much ground for 1 trip?"
Yes. And I should have told you that, even if someone else gave you a thumbs up. The main problem is trying to do Rothenburg, Dachau, Garmisch, Mittenwald, the Füssen "castles" and Innsbruck in 3 days and then wasting much of the next day traveling to the Rhine. I previously suggested that you select just one part of Bavaria - but you now have your first 8 days in two regions of Bavaria that are very distant from each other.

It would if you could fly into FRA - visit the Rhine and Mosel - then visit Bavaria - then fly home out of MUC (Munich.) OR if you reverse that order.

I agree with Fussgaenger. Your days 6,7,8, and 9 are a mess. Your day 6 involves 5-6 different trains and you want to see Rothenburg in addition. Days 6,7 and 9 you will be in Munich and you will see nothing except the train station. You will be 3 nights in Garmisch and see nothing of Garmisch or it's surroundings.You have too many hours on the train for a two week vacation. It can be salvaged by doing what Fussgaenger suggests:
"Fly into FRA - visit the Rhine and Mosel - then visit Bavaria - then fly home out of MUC (Munich.) OR if you reverse that order."

Another possibility is:
Day 1-Fly from USA
Day 2-Arrive Berlin For 4 nights
Day 3-Berlin
Day 4-Berlin
Day 5-Berlin
Day 6-AM train to Cologne(4-1/2 hrs,no train changes),1 night
Day 7-train to Cochem ( 2 hrs, 1 train change-Koblenz),3 nights
Day 8-Cochem
Day 9-Cochem
Day 10-train to Bacharach (2 hrs, 1 change-Koblenz), 2 nights
Day 11-Bacharach
Day 12-train to Wurzberg (3-1/2 hrs, 1 change Koblenz),4 nights
Day 13-Wurzburg day trip to Nuremberg
Day 14-Wurzburg day trip to Rothenburg
Day 15-Wurzburg day trip to Bamberg
Day 16-train to FRA Airport (1-1/2 hrs, no changes)Fly Home

I played with your itinerary to fit in most of what you want in the proportions you want: 3 & 4 night stays except for 1 night in Würzburg. Garmisch at the front to avoid G7. Doable train trips (Nuremberg base makes this easier and cheaper.) See Dachau and Rothenburg en route. Added Bad Windsheim day trip option. Fly into MUC, out of FRA.

Day 1- Fly from USA into Munich
Day 2- Arrive Garmisch-P. (< 2.5 train hours) for 3 nights
Day 3- Mittenwald + GP
Day 4- GP + Innsbruck?
Day 5- Train to Munich station, store bags. Dachau, then back. PM train to Nuremberg (maybe 5 train hours this day) for 4 nights
Day 6- Day trip to Bamberg, Nuremberg PM (45 train min. one way)
Day 7- Day trip to Iphofen, Nuremberg PM (45 train min. one way)
Day 8- Day trip to Bad Windsheim (55 train min. one way (open air museum, wow!) Nuremberg PM
Day 9- Nuremberg to Würzburg (1 night) w/ stopover in Rothenburg for several hours (<3 train hours total)
Day 10- Day in Würzburg. PM train to Boppard (3.2 hours) for 2 nights
Day 11- Rhine
Day 12- Rhine; PM train to Cochem (1 train hr.) for 3 nights
Day 13- Mosel
Day 14- Mosel
Day 15- Train to Mainz (<2 train hours) for final night.
Day 16- 25 min. train ride to FRA, fly out

I suppose if you want to substitute Berlin for the Alps and Dachau, you could work with dugi-otok's plan.

Wow! what a life saver. Thank you Thank you. I almost made flight reservations yesterday...so glad Ididn't! I guess if I had started with a travel agent I wouldn't be in this predicament, but ya'll have been so wonderful! I'll look at this today and get back to you. Keep in touch. We aren't done yet!

About Nuremberg: good-sized city w/ a mostly small town feel. University town. Lots of pedestrian zones. Kaiserburg Castle grounds. Nice churches and old town. Lots of shops and pubs. It is the area train hub. Day trips can be done from there for only €18/day per couple using the "Tagesticket Plus" day pass (a local offering, buy at ticket machine.)

http://media.belocal.de/120712/1152x768_0,0c.jpg

Handcrafts "village" across from station called the Handwerkerhof is a permanent feature of Nuremberg:
http://www.handwerkerhof.de/en/home.html

Nazi Doc center in Nuremberg (near the (Nazi Rally Grounds) would be informative and sickening enough should you decide the Dachau stop is just too much (either logistically or emotionally... By the way, I scheduled Dachau in there between some long train rides with nothing else that day because if you go, you will likely not feel like doing anything else.) If you choose to skip Dachau, you could either spend a few hours in Munich (visit a palace?) or move straight on to Nuremberg.

dugi_otok:
why 1 night in Cologne? Is it just a stop or what?
Thanks

About Mainz: Nice place, mostly modern and somewhat ugly, but the other part is really nice - the old town with its fine buildings, the large pedestrian/shopping zone, the market square, the Dom, the Stadtpark... all good stuff for an enjoyable final afternoon and evening.

http://www.mainz.de/WGAPublisher/onl...lt/attractions
http://www.master.economics.uni-main...sse-abends.jpg
https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2674/...443950a1_z.jpg
http://www.romantic-germany.info/upl..._02.jpgCologne

If for reasons of cost or availability you cannot fly into MUC and out of FRA, you will miss out on Mainz, but it is not a disaster. Fly into and out of MUC - then on Day 15 you could still make it from Cochem to Munich in under 6 hours by train. Stay the night right near the airport there.

The Nazi Parade Grounds at Nuremburg I found not to be nearly as disturbing as any concentration/death camp - no gas chambers here - no train platofrms separating the workable from non, etc. Wholly different places - I enjoyed seeing the grandeur of the vast parade grunds - the stadium with the box still there where Hitler reviewed goose-stepping troops, etc.

Not to glorify it but to remember how patriotic zealousness can lead to some pretty horrific policies that the people as whole were brainwashed into supporting.

But to me nothing like Dachau.

Fussgaenger, As far as staying in Mainz one night. Instead of moving again and needing to book a room, how about just train out of Mosel for Fra? About 3-4 hours? There is a decent flight that leaves at 13:40

I agree that Nurnberg has plenty of Nazi history and can skip Dachau. I realize it's going to be quite sickening, but if they had to endure it the least I can do is honor their memory by visiting some the history.

Ok, I love ya'lls itineraries. Just need to decide Berlin or Bavaria. I have a funny feeling I'll be back tho!

Sure, if you have a late pm flight you can reach FRA from Cochem. Leave Cochem 8:19, arrive FRA 10:34 on most days. One change of train in Koblenz.

palenq. good point about dachau.

another thing to consider is which of these days fall on a Sunday. Day 5 is a Sunday which should work out as a long train day as well as day 12.

The only thing you can't do on Sundays in Germany is retail shopping. Mondays are typically when museums and tourist sights are closed, if they close at all.

If you will be in Cochem between June 3 and 7, be sure to secure a room promptly. That is "Mosel Wine Week" and there will be lots of visitors. Music, dance, fireworks on Friday night at 10:30, and lots of wine and food stands.

Whoa, that could throw a wrench in things! Im still trying to decide on flights. Better look into that.

so any suggestions?

The Freilandmuseum in Bad Windsheim is an amazing and startling journey through time. A must-see IMO.

http://www.tripadvisor.com/Attractio...conia_Fra.html

http://www.stripes.com/military-life...useum-1.102354

http://freilandmuseum.de/startseite/information-en.html

The Wirtshaus am Kommunbrauhaus on museum grounds is an operating pub-restaurant serving traditional regional food and beer brewed on site; it is one of several eateries there. It was built in 1518 and (like the rest of the buildings at this museum) was moved to the site from another town in Bavaria:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...museum_007.JPG

Cochem accommodations: I have no idea of your needs. I sent my nephew to the Zum Fröhlichen Weinberg. It's uphill from and near the market square with budget rooms. Figure around €50 with breakfast buffet included. A healthy walk from the station but doable. He loved it. Bavaria Ben likes it too:

http://www.bensbauernhof.com/froehli...chemmosel.html

Book via email:
http://www.zum-froehlichen-weinberg.de/kontakt.html

Room (Zimmer) photos:
http://www.zum-froehlichen-weinberg.de/zimmer.html

You can try some wine in their wine room in the afternoons.

Be sure to ask about cancellation policies at any place you inquire about prior to booking. Do not assume anything you book is cancellable. German law obligates you to pay for reservations you make whether you pay a deposit or not - UNLESS the owners offer a different policy.

Hi dlongan

<<why 1 night in Cologne? Is it just a stop or what?>>

I will answer your question, but I like where Fussgaenger is taking you. When taking the train from Berlin to Rhine/Mosel you can change trains in either Cologne (Koln) or Frankfurt. For you I chose Cologne.It is just a stop over. The Munster is worth seeing, one of the most famous religious buildings in the world.Sit in an outdoor cafe and have their famous Kolsch beer.You can do this in a couple of hours. You need not stay the night.You could just continue to Cochem on the same day.

I think I'm set on landing in Munich and out of Frankfurt. I'll save Berlin for next year. Making flight arrangements now. Kind of excited about being in Cochem during a festival. There is always a festival in San Antonio too!
As far as lodging, it would be great to be walking distance from train, but more important to be walking distance from the attractions. Also, we are not fans of budget lodging. If you're going that far, might as well stay somewhere comfy. Not that the budget way isn't.
I'll have to look at local maps once I get the flight squared away.

A good number of the places that are close in are booked for your dates. The Villa Vinum - near the station and the river and not far from the old town - shows availability, and it gets very high marks.

http://www.villa-vinum-cochem.de/

The Alte Thorschenke is also well located: http://www.thorschenke.de/en/index.htm

Check the Lohspeicher too, right on Market Square. Shows as available at booking.com.


Because the station and the old town are both on the same side of the river, I'd find something on that side if at all possible, like the ones above.

The Villa Tummelchen is worth a check too.
http://www.moselpension.de/english/

Building on the Fussgaenger itinerary.

Day 1- Fly from USA into Munich
Day 2- Arrive Garmisch-P. (< 2.5 train hours) for 3 nights
Day 3- Mittenwald + GP
Day 4- GP
Day 5- Train to Munich station, store bags. Dachau, then back. PM train to Nuremberg (maybe 5 train hours this day) for 4 nights

I do not know what your accommodation requirements are. We recently stayed in GP here:
https://www.hoteledelweiss.de/language/en
Really nice. Near the train station,TI,a park with nightly concerts, walking distance to the pedestrian zone and many restaurants. Great breakfast.Nice rooms,public areas. I highly recommend the family owned Hotel Edelweiss.

You have the arrival day and two full days and a lot to choose from for your stay in GP. One day you might see Schloss Linderhof, Oberammergau, and Kloster Ettal. There are some nice walks around GP,Partnach Gorge, etc. You can also go to the top of Germany's highest mountain-the Zugspitze $$$. Also the pretty mountain resort of Mittenwald referred to as a "living picturebook".Karwendelbahn cable car in Mittenwald. On the main street in Mittenwald there is a konditorei with pastries to die for. Just sit outside eating pastries and drinking coffee and watch the world go by. You can do all this using bus transportation, hiring a personal guide, or renting a car. The alps and alpine villages are a good introduction to your vacation!

flights are booked! Into Munich, Out of Frankfurt. Now the planning begins!

Due to flights etc. we have 18 days. Flying out of Frankfurt at 1:00 . Where to add . I think co hem looks awesome and relaxing with the wine festival, bike rides, etc.

If you are adding 2 nights to the 16-day itinerary I most recently suggested (which IMO is already stretching you very thin because of your numerous travel goals) I would stick 1 of the 2 extra days where your time is already very tight - in G-P (for a total of 4 there.)

On your first day in G-P you're dealing with jet lag, and doing anything is questionable. You have only 2 more days there and you have multiple day trips in mind.

Either Boppard or Cochem should get the other extra day. Your time in Boppard and on the Rhine is pretty short. Do make sure you plan to spend nearly all of Day 12 there before heading to Cochem that night. Then you can add one more night to Cochem.

This thread is already so long, I hesitate to think I can add to all that must have been said. (Far too much to read all of it)! So I'll just tell you what we did and see if you find it any help. First, the Rhine and Moselle are both rivers that draw on the emotions - but different ones. They're both worth your time. Yes, Cochem is a little far up the Moselle to be a good base for both. One time we stayed at Bacharach, and it was perfect. Another time we stayed at Rudesheim, and it too worked by using the Lorch car ferry to cross the Rhein north of Rudesheim and south of Bacharach.

Continuing to Munich (by car), another river - the Neckar - can be taken in between Heidelberg and Rothenburg. That's a moody river too, but a different mood again from the Rhine or Moselle. Heidelberg is delightful. Rothenburg is over-touristed by day, but becomes quite magical by late afternoon when the tourist buses have gone.

Other places we've stayed, further down, are Donauworth and Landsberg am Lecht. Also around the Ammersee: Herrsching or Andechs, if you fancy a relaxing lakeside break.

Thank you two flower. You're correct in that this is a long post. They have been so helpful to me and I hope to others after me.
Fuss , that is what I was thinking. There are so many day trips before Mosel, I tht it would be a great place to relax and bicycle a few days. Also the wine festival is supposedly going to be there as well.