amandayellsloud

Hi everyone! Looking for some advice from travellers. I will be travelling to Germany & Switzerland with my family. Our dates of travel will be July 8th - 26th (19 days). We're interested primarily in seeing historical sites (museums, castles, ruins), arts & culture and certainly a bit of nature! We are all generally in good shape and are able to walk all day long with no difficulties.

We are likely flying into Frankfurt, as it is the cheapest option (we are from Canada). We are considering flying home from either Frankfurt or Zurich, but we are open to suggestions. Here are the cities / sights we are hoping to see! Again, open to your suggestions!

Berlin
Rothenburg
Munich
The Black Forest
Rhine River Valley
Castle Neuschwanstein
Romantic Road
Baden Baden
Heidelberg
Trier
Zurich
Lucerne

I realize this list is quite ambitious. Could anyone help me out in whittling it down, or perhaps suggesting the best route?
We are hoping to travel by train. I've been looking into the Eurail Germany-Switzerland pass, but I've heard some tales of caution with these passes. Could anyone care to elaborate?

Finally, this is a bit of a sidenote, but I am hoping to extend my stay in Europe after this family trip for a few extra weeks on my own. I'm 22 and looking for a youth organization I could volunteer or intern with. If anyone has any leads, I'm all ears!

Thanks!

PalenQ

We are hoping to travel by train. I've been looking into the Eurail Germany-Switzerland pass, but I've heard some tales of caution with these passes. Could anyone care to elaborate?>

Yes you may be better of with a Germany Youthpass - you are taking so many trains in Germany that the pass may actually be cheaper than a string of discounted tickets that, sold in limited numbers, must be booked weeks in advance to get then are non-changeable from a specific train and non-refundable.

With the pass you can hop willy-nilly any ole train any old time with very few exceptions - total flexibility.

And ditto for a Swiss Pass - one country pass. Both those passes may be cheaper overall than the Germany-Switzerland Eurailpass and give you more days of travel at a lower or equivalent price.

The problem with any Eurailpass in Switzerland is that it is not valid on some key mountain trains like in the Interlaken area - to me and many the absolute highlight of Switzerland that I suggest you dwell on rather than Zurich, a big modern city that leaves many non-plussed - this is the Switzerland of your dreams - glacier-girdled mountains soaring above lush meadows - and towns like Grindelwald - up in the mountains and Lauterbrunnen have tons of folks you age in their many hostels and youth hotels - you will enjoy this better IMO than Zurich or Lucerne - though the latter is certainly one of Europe's cutest towns.

Eurailpasses get only a 25% discount on trains to those towns, the Swiss Pass covers them in full plus also gives 50% off on cable cars whereas a Eurailpass does not give any.

Anyway look at both the German Railpass and the Swiss Pass as your best bets - especially since you qualify for youthpasses, being under 26.

Great sites for planning a European rail trip and about passes, etc: www.budgeteuropetravel.com; www.ricksteves.com and www.seat61.com.

Russ

Nice that you have that much time for Germany, a...loud.

First off, Palenque (whose terminal case of railpass-love routinely drives his board comments) probably has some good thoughts when it comes to train travel. But way before jumping on a railpass, you do need to have a pretty stable itinerary - something you are rightly concerned about given the many destinations. There may be (and there often are) better choices than the railpass, just as you have heard.

"Could anyone help me out in whittling it down..."
This is very subjective but here's my take... with the minimum # of nights.

KEEPERS:

Berlin (4)

Munich (3)

The Black Forest (2-3) Old-world villages like Gengenbach and Schiltach. Freiburg, great city. Vogtsbauernhof farm museum.

Rhine River Valley (2-3.) 40 Castles here, 3-4 that you can tour, including Burg Eltz. Great old world towns like Oberwesel, St. Goar, Bacharach, Boppard, Braubach (home of Marksburg Castle) and Cochem (on nearby Mosel River.)

Romantic Road (? depends, maybe 3-4)

Northern end of RR: Würzburg and Rothenburg (a maybe because there are other fine towns close to Würzburg with virtually no Disneyland vibe and no tourist horde - Iphofen, Sommerhausen, Ochsenfurt, Marktbreit:

Iphofen photos: http://www.stadtbild-deutschland.org...&threadID=2985

S, O and M: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLUgpoQIFHI

Southern end of RR: Augsburg, Donauwörth, Harburg, Nördlingen


Zurich, Lucerne (2-3 total)


MAYBES:
Trier (1) (only if you care a lot about Roman History)
Heidelberg (1) Just OK.
Rothenburg (1) (actually part of the Romantic Road but just too touristy.

KICK TO THE CURB:
"Castle" Neuschwanstein It's a 30-min. tour. Takes 2.5 hours each way from Munich. And it's NOT a castle - only foreigners call it that - Germans call it a palace. It's a late 19th-century unfinished residence where Ludwig lived for 6 months. Who really cares if there's another one like it in Disneyland? Go see a real castle where something actually happened once upon a time.)

Baden Baden (casinos, spa treatments, expensive, ugh.)

You will hear that the Romantic Road cannot be seen by train but that's only true for a smallish section in the middle. All the towns on the RR that I mentioned (and some others as well) can be reached by train. (You only have time for so many anyway.)

Travelforbeer

Amanda- How many people are in your family and what are their ages? This may have a large impact on your costs and mode of transportation. You have way too many places for 19 days unless you want to just say "Oh we were there last year." Read the trip report by Cherthor and decide if that is what you want to do and can you handle it. Give us some feedback and we will give you more detailed recommendations...

PalenQ

There may be (and there often are) better choices than the railpass, just as you have heard.>

Well if they do the itinerary outlined in the OP statement then a railpass for Germany will be cheaper than any string of discounted tickets and you can hop any train anytime - not like on Weekend Specials which restrict you to slower regional trains often involving changing - no in this case if they do all that it is a no-brainer IMO to do the German Railpass.

Yes I am a proponent of fully flexible travel and if taking a handful of trains in Germany - long-distance trains not regional ones then a railpass can yes be as cheap as discounted tickets and no need to book months in advance and then be locked into a specific train on a specific day, etc.

Folks make the discounted tickets a panacea - Russ is an example of this - all to cut at times a few euros and give up so so much flexibility.

Russ

The point, PalenQ, is NOT only about "discounted tickets" that "give up so so much flexibility" but about an entire range of train options that you are not particularly familiar with.

a...loud is traveling w/ family, possibly to the Rhine Valley. Palenque, are you aware that in the Rhine/Mosel region, a 3-day day pass for trains (and buses) for up to 5 passengers is available on the spot for €43.60? How much more would this family pay for 3 German railpass days of village-visiting and castle snooping in the area? If a railpass costs €30/person/day for a family of 4, then instead of €43.60, they're shelling out €120/day or €360 for 3 days of outings. If the Rhine ends up on her itinerary, don't you think the 3-day pass is something a...loud should get to hear about and evaluate for herself?

It makes very little sense for the OP to just count up train travel days and purchase a railpass for that number, wasting nearly 10 times the amount they really needed to spend.

a...loud made it clear that she is considering whittling down her plans... so don't you think it is infinitely more rational to hold off on a railpass recommendation - or any recommendation at all - until she has worked out their itinerary? There is NO panacea for all travelers. It may indeed turn out that a railpass makes good sense, maybe in combination with other options. Just this week I recommended a railpass-only trip to a solo traveler over on Tripadvisor - that's what he needed based on his particular itinerary. But one size simply does not fit all travelers.

Any ticketing recommendations at this early point in the planning are 100% premature.

neckervd

Switzerland: if you want to see only Zurich and Lucerne, you better spend all your time in Germany. The gems of Switzerland are really elsewhere!

PalenQ

Any ticketing recommendations at this early point in the planning are 100% premature.>

On this we agree - and don't rule out a pass as you seem to do - if someone wants flexibility on long-distance trips like they have several of it seems and do not want to spend all day on regional trains with some special deal then 29 euros a day - current pass prices for a 10-day flexipass, could be a great deal - yeh some days they would save money by local deals and may want to reduce the number of days they buy on a pass.

So I mention the pass for those who want total flexibility sans restrictions - some folks do like that and others like to examine every little option to save a very few euros often and that is fine too.

You provide invaluable help for the latter who can never realize all the various options and I'll mention passes to as that rarely comes up in your case it seems - give it as an option and let the person decide.

Russ

PalenQ: "...don't rule out a pass as you seem to do..."

Please try reading the comments of others with an intent to understand them. If you think you already do, please re-read my comments once or twice again and try point to the part where I "ruled out a pass."

Was it this one?

Russ: "There may be (and there often are) better choices than the railpass."

Or was it this one?

Russ: "There is NO panacea for all travelers. It may indeed turn out that a railpass makes good sense..."

So - you can't find it either?? Does it still seem to you that I have "ruled out" a railpass somehow?

PalenQ: "...if someone wants flexibility on long-distance trips like they have several of it seems and do not want to spend all day on regional trains..."

Again - can you point to the part where I suggested taking a long, long trip on regional trains that would require a full day of travel??? You are arguing with a straw man.

I think you have at least a small obligation to be ACCURATE with your comments on this board - whether you are paraphrasing me, or telling us about railpasses. Here's another comment of yours for your consideration, just for example... Is your comment accurate?

PalenQ: "I mention the pass for those who want total flexibility sans restrictions..."

So... Railpasses have total flexibility - no restrictions, hm?

Does a railpass restrict you to trains? Yes, it pretty much does. But many local passes, FYI, allow the use of buses, trams, ferries, and the U-Bahn.

Does a German railpass restrict travel to Germany?
Yes, it pretty much does. But several local/regional day passes permit exploration of certain areas within neighboring countries as well, including France, Austria and the Czech Republic, areas that would cost much more to visit if you bought a 2-country railpass.

Railpasses have no hours restrictions. Do local/regional passes have hours restrictions? Often they do on weekdays, but generally, weekend hours are just as free of restriction as railpasses. And sometimes, as in the case of the Nuremberg area Tagesticket Plus, there are no restrictions on weekdays either.

Do railpasses bought for a certain number of travel days restrict you to the # of travel days you have paid for? Absolutely. But some local/regional passes allow you to use a one-day pass on two consecutive days under certain circumstances. Others give you a free 3rd day if you buy 2 days.

So, PalenQ, is your comment, quoted above, on the issue of flexibility with railpasses vs. local/regional passes really accurate, or do you agree with me that you have overstated your point?

I don't mind AT ALL if you disagree with me on stuff, but I just think you should disagree with something I've actually said, and that you should make your own points using more accurate information and language, OK?

amandayellsloud

Wow, what a response! Thanks everyone for all the effort you put into this!

I definitely see both of your points about the rail passes. I've always a bit wary of these unlimited passes, and in the past I've always opted for buying tickets solo. That being said, I'm not travelling on my own this time around so I am trying to take into consideration that booking discounted tickets for a group of 4 is not always going to be easy. I'll definitely have to put more thought into this, and comb over both of your responses a little more, but thank you so much to both of you for your help so far! I'll definitely follow up to your posts later.

PalenQ - I've definitely heard a few people say Zurich is not worth it, so I'm reconsidering. The only thing is, we have a great deal on a hotel there (my parents work in hotel chains). So I was hoping to perhaps use it as a home base, and then taking day trips to other towns such as Grindelwald.
Also - just to clarify, when you say Swiss pass and German railpass, do you mean the one-country Eurail pass, or are they with a different company? Sorry if my question is obvious, it's been a while since I was last in Europe!

Travelforbeer - I agree that we've got too much on our plate, and I'm definitely more of a stay-in-one-place-and-absorb type of person when it comes to travelling. That being said, my family is a group of 4 - I'm the youngest (22), my brother (26) and mum and dad (mid 50s, but both very active). My parents do want to see as much of Germany as possible, as they may not have as many chances to come back as, say, my brother and I. Thanks for your suggestion to read the trip report, I'll definitely do that and post again! (Sorry, I'm new to Fodors and probably should have done a quick search before posting.)

Russ - thank you for your detailed breakdown! Just what I was looking for! I have no problem kicking Castle/Palace Neuschwanstein to the curb, I've heard that it's not worth it. And thanks for the heads up on Baden-Baden! I'll be getting rid of that as well.
As for the number of towns you mentioned on the Romantic Road, are these doable in less than a day? I.e., could we hop on a train, see a town, hop back on the train and see another? Would you suggest maybe using one of these towns as a home base, and taking day trips?

Again, thank you everyone for all your informative responses! I'll post again soon with some updates.

Russ

"I am trying to take into consideration that booking discounted tickets for a group of 4 is not always going to be easy. I'll definitely have to put more thought into this, and comb over both of your responses a little more..."

I think Job 1 is to completely DISMISS the railpass/ticketing discussion for now and focus only on your itinerary - even PalenQ agrees tickets/passes should wait (most of my chat was aimed at PalenQ anyway.)

The sooner you have a plan, the greater your choices and your possible savings. (It's not hard to buy advance-sale tickets for 4 people as long as you have their names and ages - that should be a snap in your case - don't sweat that.)

That's so nice that you have a deal in Switzerland. Prices for everything there are stunning. If Zürich is a go... and it REALLY IS a pleasant place once you get into the old town and along the lake - then a daytrip to Luzern is easy - 45 min. each way. A daytrip to Grindelwald will involve 5+ hours round trip.

And if it is a go you might look into the Supersaver fares at the Swiss rail site. The DW and I used them to our advantage this April between Geneva and Zürich. They are available about 2 weeks in advance. I'm seeing a price of CHF 41 each one way for Grindelwald, CHF 12 each one way to Luzern, for sample date June 6 (just so you have a rough idea):

http://www.sbb.ch/en/travelcards-and...upersaver.html

Romantic Road: My suggestion is daytrips from a base town - Würzburg in the north and/or Donauwörth (or Augsburg) in the south.

From train hub W'burg you'd have enough day trip options for 5 days - destination towns in my first post are within 30 minutes or so one way - and others like Bamberg and Nuremberg, just under one hour.

Your southern RR base (Donauwörth, RR town on the Danube River) would easily be good for 4-5 days of outings in every direction no problem - Harburg (RR town) Nördlingen (RR town) Augsburg (RR town) Ulm, Neuburg, Weissenburg, Eichstätt, and Pappenheim are all very doable day trips.

http://home.arcor.de/oberpfalz-nord/...onauwoerth.jpg

http://www.donauwoerth.de/html/user_...uristInfo.html

Clearly you won't have time to make it to all these places and you'll have to make some choices.

This diagram of all the Bavarian train lines should help you get oriented:

http://www.bahn.de/p/view/mdb/pv/pla...ayern_2013.pdf

Outings by train from Donauwörth and/or Würzburg by day pass cost €35/ 4 adults / day using the Bavaria Ticket:

http://www.munich-touristinfo.de/Bavaria-Ticket.htm

Travelforbeer

Can you get a good hotel deal through your parents in a German city like Munich? I was able to get some good deals before the conglomerate I worked for got out of the hotel business...

PalenQ

PalenQ: "I mention the pass for those who want total flexibility sans restrictions...">

Of course I was talking about trains - a railpass is good for rail travel run by the German Railwsys, thus S-Bahns are included (except some in Berlin are not - only those connecting main railway stations are but usually most are) - so you are mixing up apples and oranges - no restrictions meant on DB - German Railway trains and S-Bahns.

Russ

PQ: "Of course I was talking about trains..."

The point: Railpasses have equipment restrictions; they restrict users to trains. You are not allowed to use local buses, trams, or the U-Bahn. Local daypasses like the Bayern Ticket routinely allow the use not only of trains, but of trams, buses, and U-Bahn as well.

Real travelers don't sleep in the station. In the real world, if they arrive at Nuremberg Hbf or Munich Hbf on a railpass, and need to get to their hotel by public transport, their railpass is suddenly useless - they must buy additional tickets or hail a taxi. With a daypass, they just hop on and go.

Getting around involves both apples and oranges - not just DB.

PalenQ

Local daypasses like the Bayern Ticket routinely allow the use not only of trains, but of trams, buses, and U-Bahn as well>

so there are no restrictions on Lander Tickets about using ICE and faster trains - I thought that ticket was only valid on slower and less comfy IME regional trains and now the new Meridian trains - that is not an 'equipment restriction'?

Russ

"so there are no restrictions on Lander Tickets about using ICE and faster trains"

Back up, PalenQ.

I never said that. If I did, then quote me. (This habit of yours - fictionalizing what I have said - is truly pernicious.)

I merely pointed out to you, with examples, how inaccurate you are when you say that railpasses have "no restrictions."

Dukey1

In terms of just which of the four Ludwig builds it is worth spending time in, that is obviously subjective. Neuschwanstein is iconic on the outside (and no, Russ, the Disneyland "castle" is NOT modeled after Neuschwanstein but rather a build in France) and rather dull on the inside.

If you are going to travel that far then I would spend time at Linderhof rather than Neuschwanstein since the interior decoration, as well as the things which went on there, are far more interesting than the Neuschwanstein stuff.

If you want to see the largest build of all, and the most elaborately decorated, as well as visiting a site which is enormously popular amongst the Germans themselves, then consider the train trip from Munich to Prien and a visit to Herrenchiemsee. The interior is Ludwig's "tribute" to Louis XIV and was an attempt to copy the interiors of Versailles.

The Herrenchiemsee "Hall of Mirrors" is even larger than the one at Versailles.

If none of that appeals, then a trip to the Residenz Museum in Munich itself might be easier and the Ludwig carriage collection alone is worth a visit IMO. You know that gilded/gold leaf number Queen Elizabeth sometimes appears in? Well, Ludwig's rides make Liz's look like Volkwagens.

You might also consider, in Munich, a visit to the Nymphenburg if you are really into "living large."

If, OTOH, you like places that are in half ruins, sure there are plenty of those.

Enjoy your trip.

Russ

Dukey1 writes, "...and no, Russ, the Disneyland "castle" is NOT modeled after Neuschwanstein but rather a build in France..."

The sources I've seen disagree with you.

"Sleeping Beauty Castle is the fairy tale structure castle at the center of Disneyland Park and Hong Kong Disneyland. It is based on the late-19th century Neuschwanstein Castle in Bavaria, Germany,[1] with some French inspirations (especially Notre Dame de Paris and the Hospices de Beaune..."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleepin...le#cite_note-1

Russ

Dukey1 writes, "If, OTOH, you like places that are in half ruins, sure there are plenty of those."

Late 19th-century palaces aren't the only option for stunning buildings. You can go back 8 centuries or so and find intact castles that French invaders never bombarded and that aren't anywhere near a state of rubble.

www.marksburg.de
www.burg-eltz.de

amandayellsloud

Russ - Thanks for that! You answered my question completely. A northern and southern base town sound perfect. Thanks for those resources, I'll pore them over and decide which RR towns will make the cut
As for Switzerland, I'm glad to hear that day trips are reasonable! I realize that we'll have to miss out on some of the best parts of Switzerland for now, but at at the very least we'll be able to see some of it.

Travelforbeer - My parents work for Fairmont (partnered with Swissotel) so unfortunately no such luck in Munich. We do get a deal in Berlin though (yay). I believe there's also Swissotels in Hamburg and Dusseldorf, but I think it'd be best to save northern Germany (other than Berlin) for another trip.

Dukey1 - Thanks for the recommendations! I think Neuschwanstein is out, but Herrenchiemsee looks amazing! And Munich is definitely a go for us - I'll definitely look into the museums you mentioned. The carriage collection sounds right up my alley.

Back to Russ - you also mentioned earlier that there are castles in the Rhine River Valley area worth a visit (like Burg Eltz) and several towns (Oberwesel, St. Goar, Bacharach, Boppard, Braubach and Cochem). Again, would you recommend a base town or two in this region? Mainz, perhaps?