French grammar question
Jan 4th, 2005, 03:12 PM
#1
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French grammar question
Actually, someone else's posting about French language classes reminded me that I've had a question recently that I can't seem to answer on my own--I've already consulted my French dictionaries and grammar books.
Some adjectives change in meaning if they are placed before or after the noun they are modifying.
nouvelle, nouveau are in that group.
If I recall correctly, the subtle difference is between calling something 'new' as opposed to 'brand new.'
Anyway, if I go into a shop and want to buy a new watch band for my watch, do I want un nouveau bracelet, or un
bracelet nouveau ?
Some adjectives change in meaning if they are placed before or after the noun they are modifying.
nouvelle, nouveau are in that group.
If I recall correctly, the subtle difference is between calling something 'new' as opposed to 'brand new.'
Anyway, if I go into a shop and want to buy a new watch band for my watch, do I want un nouveau bracelet, or un
bracelet nouveau ?
Jan 4th, 2005, 03:20 PM
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Elaine, I'm not a French expert by any means, but I looked it up in my dictionary, and it says "brand new" is neuf or neuve, and "new" is nouveau or nouvelle.
I don't know whether it matters if it's in front of the noun or after it.
I don't know whether it matters if it's in front of the noun or after it.
Jan 4th, 2005, 04:03 PM
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if anyone is interested, I just found a great on-line explanation (neuf and neuve always go after the noun, nouveau and nouvelle always go before)
http://french.about.com/od/mistakes/a/new.htm
http://french.about.com/od/mistakes/a/new.htm
Jan 4th, 2005, 04:14 PM
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It's probably in that about link (I've not linked), but sometimes placing the adjective gives a very restrictive meaning.
For example, le train dernier (the previous train), le dernier train (absolutely the very last train).
For example, le train dernier (the previous train), le dernier train (absolutely the very last train).
Jan 4th, 2005, 04:35 PM
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found this at
www.frenchclasses.com
"Nouveau" placement is flexible apparently:
La place dans la phrase
Nouveau est placé devant le substantif qu'il accompagne
Un nouveau règlement vient de sortir.
Nous fêtons le Nouvel An entre amis.
ou bien après le substantif. En septembre par exemple, on voit des affiches dans tous les bistrots:
Le vin blanc doux nouveau est arrivé!
Goûtez le Beaujolais Nouveau!
www.frenchclasses.com
"Nouveau" placement is flexible apparently:
La place dans la phrase
Nouveau est placé devant le substantif qu'il accompagne
Un nouveau règlement vient de sortir.
Nous fêtons le Nouvel An entre amis.
ou bien après le substantif. En septembre par exemple, on voit des affiches dans tous les bistrots:
Le vin blanc doux nouveau est arrivé!
Goûtez le Beaujolais Nouveau!
Jan 5th, 2005, 01:00 PM
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I think you can safely put nouveau before or after and certainly you will be understood. The only exception would be you wouldn't put neuf in front as that would mean nine. I think the about.com article is good but that isn't exactly the way I learned it or use it, and I think it may be a little outdated. Generally, that article seems right to me in the distinction in neuf and nouveau, but clearly nouveau is NOT always in front of the word as I think she says (Art Nouveau, Beaujolais Nouveau, etc).
My understanding is that when it is just a simple adjective that means new, it is after the word, but when in front it refers to a sequence or series, if that makes sense. This is similar to what about.com says EXCEPT she implies only neuf is used to mean new, and I think modern usage has nouveau used in the same way.
For example, if you were talking about reading a livre nouveau, that would mean a book that is newly published or just came out, but if you said you were reading a nouveau livre, that would mean perhaps you had finished a book yesterday and now were reading a new book to you. (this is similar to the usage of dernier or premier, before or after a noun, but not exactly the same) I think if you want to buy a new bracelet it would be bracelet nouveau, but you wouldn't really have to say that in a shop as anything you buy there is obviously new to you, you could just say you wanted to buy a bracelet.
The place I disagree with about.com is that it is basically saying nouveau is always in front and neuf is after a noun, and has the meaning of just new as in newly created. I think when nouveau is behind a noun, it has that same meaning and is often used that way, especially nowadays. I have a French grammar book written for French students, not foreigners learning French, and it makes that distinction in nouveau before a noun (or nouvel when appropriate) or after. It's published by Larousse and is already about 15 years old, so clearly the use of nouveau both before and after a noun has been commonly used for some time.
This book does refer to neuf mainly as meaning a new "thing" or something just made, except for familiar or slang expressions where it is used to mean something new to me or figuratively, a real beginner on a job, etc. For example, the phrase "voila, qui est tout neuf for moi"! is cited as "familiar usage" which according to about.com would not be said. Of course there is the common saying "quoi de neuf?" or variations, but it is funny in that it notes that the Academie Francaise insists "quoi de nouveau" is preferred.
I think the "brand new" phrasing in some Am/French dictionaries or on about.com is an attempt to convert a concept to English or American slang, as that phrase doesn't really mean a lot to me -- one of those redundant sayings (as in really unique). It's probably an attempt to convey the newly made vs. "new to me" idea.
My understanding is that when it is just a simple adjective that means new, it is after the word, but when in front it refers to a sequence or series, if that makes sense. This is similar to what about.com says EXCEPT she implies only neuf is used to mean new, and I think modern usage has nouveau used in the same way.
For example, if you were talking about reading a livre nouveau, that would mean a book that is newly published or just came out, but if you said you were reading a nouveau livre, that would mean perhaps you had finished a book yesterday and now were reading a new book to you. (this is similar to the usage of dernier or premier, before or after a noun, but not exactly the same) I think if you want to buy a new bracelet it would be bracelet nouveau, but you wouldn't really have to say that in a shop as anything you buy there is obviously new to you, you could just say you wanted to buy a bracelet.
The place I disagree with about.com is that it is basically saying nouveau is always in front and neuf is after a noun, and has the meaning of just new as in newly created. I think when nouveau is behind a noun, it has that same meaning and is often used that way, especially nowadays. I have a French grammar book written for French students, not foreigners learning French, and it makes that distinction in nouveau before a noun (or nouvel when appropriate) or after. It's published by Larousse and is already about 15 years old, so clearly the use of nouveau both before and after a noun has been commonly used for some time.
This book does refer to neuf mainly as meaning a new "thing" or something just made, except for familiar or slang expressions where it is used to mean something new to me or figuratively, a real beginner on a job, etc. For example, the phrase "voila, qui est tout neuf for moi"! is cited as "familiar usage" which according to about.com would not be said. Of course there is the common saying "quoi de neuf?" or variations, but it is funny in that it notes that the Academie Francaise insists "quoi de nouveau" is preferred.
I think the "brand new" phrasing in some Am/French dictionaries or on about.com is an attempt to convert a concept to English or American slang, as that phrase doesn't really mean a lot to me -- one of those redundant sayings (as in really unique). It's probably an attempt to convey the newly made vs. "new to me" idea.
Jan 5th, 2005, 02:25 PM
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This notion of the fluidity of the rules regarding the placement of adjectives seems to apply to all of them.
My impression is that if you say, for example, "un retard interminable", then you are making a statement of fact: an interminable delay i.e. one whose end cannot be foreseen.
But if you put the adjective in front, then you are introducing your emotional response to the situation and saying: "a @!@!@! interminable delay".
I would love to hear from a native speaker regarding this point.
Harzer
My impression is that if you say, for example, "un retard interminable", then you are making a statement of fact: an interminable delay i.e. one whose end cannot be foreseen.
But if you put the adjective in front, then you are introducing your emotional response to the situation and saying: "a @!@!@! interminable delay".
I would love to hear from a native speaker regarding this point.
Harzer
Jan 5th, 2005, 03:23 PM
#16
Tedgale, sounds like Mr. Valliant was a grand homme himself. Fast times?
Indytravel, because the older ones always fell down and the new one was built better? Then the even newer ones were built better still? Or was that a rhetorical question?
Indytravel, because the older ones always fell down and the new one was built better? Then the even newer ones were built better still? Or was that a rhetorical question?
Jan 6th, 2005, 11:56 AM
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>>>I think you can safely put nouveau before or after and certainly you will be understood.<<<
This is not true! Nouveau/nouvelle (when it means "New"
is in the small group of adjectives that ALWAYS, ALWAYS go BEFORE the noun (beau/belle/bel, etc are also in that group). Someone french may understand you if you put it behind, but this is a rule that children learn before they even go to school -- therefore it would sound odd and surely they would feel as if you hadn't made the effort to learn even the simplest french grammer. (Although sometimes it's easier to forget the stuff you learned first!)
Anyway -- you can always safely put nouveau/nouvelle before the noun if your intended translation is "new".
As for Beaujolais Nouveau -- it's a creative expression, a title so to speak, therefore it's not really a grammer issue. It's like us changing things that are spelled with a C to a K to make it funny. Like "Kountry Kitchen"
Lastly, as for the pont neuf -- it is the oldest bridge in Paris, making the name ironic, however when it was built it was the newest bridge in Paris -- Napoleon's crowning glory and pride!
Good luck! This should clear it up for you!
This is not true! Nouveau/nouvelle (when it means "New"
is in the small group of adjectives that ALWAYS, ALWAYS go BEFORE the noun (beau/belle/bel, etc are also in that group). Someone french may understand you if you put it behind, but this is a rule that children learn before they even go to school -- therefore it would sound odd and surely they would feel as if you hadn't made the effort to learn even the simplest french grammer. (Although sometimes it's easier to forget the stuff you learned first!) Anyway -- you can always safely put nouveau/nouvelle before the noun if your intended translation is "new".
As for Beaujolais Nouveau -- it's a creative expression, a title so to speak, therefore it's not really a grammer issue. It's like us changing things that are spelled with a C to a K to make it funny. Like "Kountry Kitchen"
Lastly, as for the pont neuf -- it is the oldest bridge in Paris, making the name ironic, however when it was built it was the newest bridge in Paris -- Napoleon's crowning glory and pride!
Good luck! This should clear it up for you!
