French Gov't bans the term "e-mail".
 

http://customwire.ap.org/dynamic/sto...p;SECTION=HOME


Thought everyone would get a kick out of this one!
%%-

I don't think it's funny or odd for a govt. agency to define common terms in its documents, and I don't agree with the journalist on all points in that article. Actually, I think they use way too many English terms in France already, which always surprises me -- even when there are perfectly good French words available. The verb "stopper" is one I find odd, for example.

I've been using email in France for quite a few years and the term "courrier electronique" has been used frequently for years -- at least on the ISP I used, so my experience differs from that article which claimed that term was rarely used.

I've not encountered the term "courriel" but have encountered something stranger which is the word "mel" for email, with an accent aigu over the "e" so that it would sound like the English word mail. I wonder what their position is on that one? The OPera Garnier, for example, uses that term. I think "e-mail" is just a lot easier to write than courrier electronique and that's why it's being used more and probably why some are using "mel". I don't find anything wrong with the term courriel, though, sounds find to me.

Would they be OK with le-mail?

Hi

My French friends use "eml" (no accent) pronounced "eh-mail".

They tried to get rid of the circumflex accents on certain words and the i in "oignon" too, but it didn't work.

Most French people use the term 'mail' or 'email', and the fact that there's a different government defined term won't change that. Indeed, the word "courriel" has been around for ages, but most French people just haven't adopted it.

Incidentally, every now and then you hear people talking about la "Toile" to mean the Internet, but it's hardly common usage.

What other terms has the French Gov't banned?
I only think it a little funny that a government would create and devote an agency to worry about words~

Do they still sell Le Big Mac? :)
Actually, I like the sound of courriel..maybe we will start using it in the US !

Not sure about the government but the Academie Francaise has been strongly oppposed to le weekend, le pullover, le drugstore, le hot dog, etc for decades.

France is probably a lot closer to becoming "officially bi-lingual" than the United States is (both could happen in 100 years). It probably won't be the first country on the continent of Europe to adpt Engish as an official second language, but I bet it won't be the last either.

I don't actually expect to live long enough to see this bet through.

Best wishes,

Rex

an e-mail, is an email, is an e-mail,is an email.
The Third E-Mail by Gertrude Wine.

You mean Whine, sister.

Yeah, but "pickpocket" is a universal word, even in Paris. ((b))

"Le e-mail" has been around for so long in France it doesn't matter what the French government (do you mean l'Académie Française?) thinks. It's there to stay.All my French friends discuss "le e-mail." No one says "courrier éléctronique" unless in a formal letter or communication.

I agree with Christina that there are already too many words and phrases in English that the French have needlessly adopted that have perfectly good equivalents in French. Outside Paris, you don't tend to hear these used, but in Paris, they are rampant. She cites "stopper," I'll cite "tester." As in "Voulez-vous tester ce vin?" Or "Voulez-vous tester ce parfum?"
"le pickpocket" is definitely an acceptable word in France these days, despite the protestations of the Académie.
I'm all for France retaining its true language - I'm a language buff and I hate to see languages diluted - but there is a point in any language when it must accept new words because of new concepts. This isn't the case with most of the issues being discussed here - except for e-mail- but a language always has to evolve.
Bottom line is that I think that French, like any language, has to retain what it can of its core and find ways to assimilate words into its lexicon that are not born in France. That requires either accepting the word the way it appears in the language in which it was born or re-inventing it to adapt to French. Both are possible. The French have no problem, for example, with what they call "steack frites." Where did they get "steack?" From the USA, of course, only they added a "c" to make it "French."
And I really doubt France will be in the forefront of those countries of Western Europe adopting English as second language. In fact, I'd bet a lot of euros on the opposite. They'd be better off adopting Arabic, which they will also never do.

Couriel is used in Quebec and in other francophone communities in Canada. In Quebec they are much more careful about anglocisms than in France although a lot of English terms do creep into their language too. English terms may sound cool in France whereas they seem common and crude in Quebec.

The only time I've heard couriel is from a French-Canadian friend.and frankly, I like it (I have a hard time trying to figure out how to pronounce e-mail in French). Back in the 60s I noticed that French Canadians seemed to be much more careful to avoid Americanisms than the French. Le weekend, le hot dog in France; la fin de semaine, le chien chaud in Quebec. I agree with Cabicou--sometimes the language loses out in an attempt to be "cool."

On the other hand, during the renaissance, other languages adopted a lot of Italian terms because they were cutting edge, and now in our techno society, it's not surprising that English terms are adopted by other societies.

The French government also limits the percentage of non-French songs that radio stations can play.

Stupid, but it's their country and they can isolate themselves from the rest of the world for only so long.

The hilarious thing about all this is that 'email' is a pretty poor example of an English word, especially since e is a rather clumsy contraction of the 'correct' word, 'electronic'. Also, in English, as we all know, adjectives are supposed to be separated from the nouns they modify, as in 'e mail'.

As for the cultural thing, I look forward to the British government announcing that from here on in, the standard word approved for use in the UK shall be 'epost.' : - )

"The French government also limits the percentage of non-French songs that radio stations can play."

Ce n'est pas plus stupide que les quotas sur les importations de textile ou les taxes sur l'acier importé aux Etats-Unis.

I believe that the Acadamie also has an alternative for "floppy disc".

Except, Tomato, that steel or textiles produced by an Arabic-speaking French person would, for tax purposes, still be considered steel or textiles, but an song in Arabic would not be considered French, for the purpose of radio air time.

Oops, sorry, meant to say that textiles or steel produced by an Arabic-speaking French person would still be considered French by the US, for the purpose of taxation, but an Arabic song performed by an Arabic-speaking French person would not be considered French by France, for the purpose of radio air time.

My dictionary gives "disquette' as the equivalent of "floppy disc".

Could somebody please tell me how you do pronounce e-mail in French? I've been trying to get my tongue around it while reading this thread and I've never heard it pronounced in French.

Re: "...especially since e is a rather clumsy contraction of the 'correct' word, 'electronic'. Also, in English, as we all know, adjectives are supposed to be separated from the nouns they modify, as in 'e mail'"

That's true about adjectives being separated from the nouns they modify, Sue, but I wonder if that rule can be "officially bent" if the adjective is shortened to one letter. Another example that comes to mind is "f-stop", short for, I believe "focal stop." I may be mistaken -- and I'm sure professional photographers will correct me if I'm wrong -- but I think it's conventionally written that way instead of sans hyphen.

Sue,
the definition of what is a "French song" is quite large. For the purpose of the law a French song is defined as a musical piece created or performed by a French artist or an artist from a French-speaking country.
So a Belgian singer singing in Arabic a song written by a Senegalese is still a French song.

I've always been fascinated by the evolution of languages, even while I'm an abysmal linguist and know less of French than most languages.

But I've seen this in conjunction with an old thread I was reading about American vs "England English" and it sort of tied together in my mind.

I've always thought that the English spoken in various counties and regions was a direct result of all the various influences on it. Think about the influx of various immigration in the US that did not occur in the UK and you get the difference between the two. The variation of speech patterns in the US south vs the north, especially in terms of daily contact with African influences and viola, you have southern accents. Australians do not sound like Londoners, even if we Americans don't always hear the difference - different mixes.

Anyway, the point, if there is one, is that I do wonder if the ability of a language to adapt doesn't make it more accessible to a greater number of speakers. I'm not meaning that dumbing down is the answer, but accepting the realities of change. English, by it's demonstrated ability to adapt, has become widespread in areas that were not once British colonies. Think how many words in the English language are in fact, French.

I'm not sure that you can force a living language into a vacuum of ideals without smothering it. There's not a lot of Latin speakers out there today. I wonder if the need to create a French translation of each new term may not someday (perhaps a very distant someday) isolate the language into disuse?

>I've always been fascinated by the evolution of languages, even while I'm an abysmal linguist and know less of French than most languages.
.............
The variation of speech patterns in the US south vs the north, especially in terms of daily contact with African influences and **viola**, you have southern accents".

You didn't have to prove it, Clifton. :)

Well, I warned you :)

A "vacuum of ideals"...nice phrase there, Clifton.

You raise an excellent point regarding "adapt or die" with languages. That's certainly the way it works in nature. Take us humans. We are probably the most adaptive animal -- or at least mammal -- on the planet and, because of that, we're everywhere. Kind of like English.

You're right about how many words in the English language are of French origin. I think it's Richard Lederer who I read who said that something like one-quarter to one-third of all words in English come from French and that's due, in large part, to the period when the Normans ruled England.

This article, "E-mail? The French beg to differ", at...

http://msn.com.com/2100-1105_2-10273...p;tag=msn_home

...says that the preferred French alternative to e-mail, "courriel", is, interestingly, "French Canadian in origin, a French dialect considered a bastardization of the language by traditionalists in France."

Oh really, Capo? Just who considers French Canadian a bastardization of the French language? Its hardly the case! Instead its a rich language that has many 17 and 18th century words in its "dialect" for the simple reason that it was cut off from France for at least two centuries. It(the language) also had to adapt to the North American reality
The French really don't consider it to be inferior to what is spoken in the hezagon and it is a respected variation that exists in the francophone world.

Cabicou, Capo was just quoting the article, so the author of the article was saying that. didn't there used to be a quota on Canadian songs played on the radio also?

If anyone doesn't like what Americans developed they can call it what it is or quit using it. Plenty of French words in the English language.

Its called e-mail.

To whoever asked how you pronounce "e-mail" en français - you just pronounce the letter "e" as pronounced in French (equivalent to the pronounciation of "eux" in French - kind of a grunt), followed by "mail" as pronounced in English.

Eux-mail

And while we're on the topic, while there are definite differences in the vocabulary and pronounciation between the French spoken in France and that spoken in Canada, there is only one French language. "French Canadian" is not a separate language. Nor is it a "dialect." A variation, to be sure, but no more a separate language or a dialect than the Spanish that is spoken in South and Central America is a separate language from that spoken in Spain, though any beginner language student could note differences.

SO, What's a variation. One speaks correct French or not?

If you live in Philadelphia and I live in Maine, we both probably speak a variation of English, using different vocabulary words for the same things (hoagie versus submarine, milkshake versus frappe, etc., etc.). We also have different accents and use different idioms and speech patterns. It doesn't mean either one of us is speaking incorrect English.
If you're from the deep South, you might pronounce words differently from Northerners, too - saying UMbrella and CEment, for example, as opposed to umBRELLa and ceMENT.
Vocabulary differs, accent differs. It's the same language, though. Not a matter of what's correct. These are all normal types of variations in any language.
French Canadian would have to be vastly different from French French to be classified as a separate language or a dialect - it isn't.

The French over-reacted on this one. E-mail is designed for fast, *global* use and for best understanding e-mail should have one simple name. Can you imagine if the Dutch, Germans, Spanish, Italians, etc., all insisted on using THEIR version of the name? E-mail is a clear, simple term understood by millions of people in hundreds of countries. No need to go mucking about with it out of some misplaced sense of national linguistic purity.

Interesting discussion. I think the word should be "email". It accurately and concisely describes both the system and the product. Friday I had a discussion with a Polish lady and her friend from Belarus. We used Polish, English and Russian in the conversation. It is possible that humans are developing a universal language.

Thanks, StCirq, I do speak some French but that pronunciation had me stumped.

Capo, what I remember about the Norman influence on the English language is that it reveals the social distinctions of the (eleventh century) day. For example, the word "pig" is used in English for the livestock, and the French-derived word "pork" is used for the food, indicating the difference between the native English who raised the animal and the Normans who saw it only on the plate.

Capo,

Interesting that you mentioned the Normans in the conversation about the spread of French, what with the Normans originally being an outside influence, within France. I'm sure most everyone has read this somewhere, but I thought it may be sort of relative to the subject of cultural and language evolution.

I'd been reading on the history of Ireland at one point before/after visiting various Viking ruins and fortifications there. Learning a little about the influence that the Vikings played there, first as raiders and destroyers of monastaries and latter as settlers. One of the things that caught my eye was the similar settling of viking groups in the north of France. They too eventually assimilated and the name "Norse" or "Norseman"... evolved to "Northman", an anglo variation and certainly geographically explicable and was finally contracted to "Norman".

So, I suppose French has absorbed a little bit of outside influence and that adaptation (intentionally or not) became a device to spread the language. I just thought it sort of went to the case in point and wonder how much Norse language went into that assimilation.

On the NY Times Op-Ed page today...

"You've Got Courriel"

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/07/28/opinion/28MON3.html

Cabicou, you asked "Just who considers French Canadian a bastardization of the French language?" According to that article at the link I posted, it's considered to be that by "traditionalists" in France but that shouldn't come as any surprise, no? Don't traditionalists of all kinds often see non-traditional things as bastardizations, threats, etc.?

Nikki, I've read the same thing as you, about the Anglo-Saxon/Norman naming of farm animals and their meats as revealing the social distinctions of that time between, as you noted, the native English who raised the animal and the Normans who saw it only on the plate.

By the way, according to Merriam-Webster, "farm" and "plate" both have an origin in Old French and "native" has an origin in Middle French...so it's going to take a lot more than Freedom Fries to purge English of clever French invaders. :)