French customs so as not to offend
 

I just read an article that says in France - never point even when talking about directions, don't chew gum, shrug your shoulders, stand with hands in pockets, give the okay sign or sit with knees opened. We're doomed! What other offenses should I be aware of?

Don't shrug your shoulders? I thought you were supposed to do that so you could copy the classic Gallic shrug! :)

There have been several other threads on that. I don't remember all of the things - most of them wouldn't come up unless you are in a formal situation. Just remember to do the greetings when entering and leaving a store.

Don't shrug? In France?

Anyone giving this advice is clearly an expert on a quite different France from the one sandwiched between Britain and Germany on Planet Earth.

But if you're planning to visit the same France the rest of us do, ignore this buffoon, who's clearly never been there. It is a condition of French citizenship to use the gesture whenever asked a question to which the answer is "sais pas, moi"

However, in any civilised country, sitting with knees opened is an infallible indication of loutishness. And, in spite of Wrigley's worst efforts to persuade us otherwise, most grown up Europeans see public gum chewing in a similar light.

here is the recent discussion

http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...p;tid=34564077

Donlt be anal retentive in France, either..they absolutely hate that!

LOL, Intrepid. I'll add that to my list which is organized on 3 by 5 cards, laminated in plastic, punched, and filed in a series of notebooks, color coded and then alphabetized according to country and custom.

I think all those articles are usually really silly. This shouldn't be an anthropological journey to some strange place. Anyone who has normal polite manners in their own country can assume to be able to travel. Some of those things are rather unpolished behavior anywhere (I personally hate gum chewing) and do not think it very feminine for a woman to sprawl back in a chair with her knees opened. Really, does one need to read an article about this? Why would one need to sit around trying to suppress giving an okay sign. I can't even remember the last time I have ever done that.

I have had many French people point when giving me directions. Never heard of the hands in pockets thing, but really don't think French people are standing around with scorecards about tourists with hands in their pockets.

Patrick - you are funny!

As many have mentioned, the first thing is to be respectful and polite -- what I think of as friendly formality. The French (and many Europeans) believe that being in public requires a sense of respect for fellow citizens, not the anything-goes informality that some Americans adopt. As such, I suggest:

(1) Begin every request with a "s'il vous plait..." ("If you please....") This recognizes that they are doing you a favor by giving you informatino, etc. Do this with EVERYONE, including the sales clerks. Of course, thank y=them fo r their help.

(2) Especially in small shops, recognize that you are in their place of business. You should both say "Bonjour <approrpiarte title, e.g. Madame, Monsieur, etc. You should also thank them when leaving.

(3) You show respect for cafes, being in public, etc. by dressing appropriately. This does not necessarily mean formally, but it does mean in street shoes, not sneakers; no sweatshirts; etc. Most casual places will not deny you service, but they pay a lot more attention to this. Frankly, some maitre d's address me first in French, and seem surprised that I am an American, I think because I don't wear the emblems of sneakers or crummy footwear; no seatshirts and college or sports logo'd garments; NO BASEBALL CAPS; etc. The rules of your grandmother's time are more likely to apply, i.e. men are expected remove their hats, etc.

The point is: your dress is not about YOU, but respect for being in public and meeting your obligation for civilized ambiance.

(4) No loud behavior. 'Nothing that shows disrepect for your fellow citizens, i.e. e.g. do not try to take up as much space as possible on the metro. Those dark looks you are gettin gmay be that you are sprawling across two seats' worth of space. Part of that "legs apart" things is the tendency of some people to take up a lot of space.

(5) Many small restaurants do not necessarily count on turnover. This is why some restaurants may look empty, but the tables are reserved. If you think you can commit to a dinner reservation at a small place, do so! The owner looks at this as a courtesy. Even informal places can fill up. The resrvation is more for managing the kitchen, not to count on re-booking tables.

(6) Yes, you have to ask for the check. The waitstaff assumes that you are there to enjoy your dinner, not to be rushed along by the staff.

(7) This may or may not apply to you: Franch children are raised to behave well in public. Please take this into consideration if you have children who aren't used to politely sitting at the table, or who treat the entire world (including shops) as their playground. I wish all parents paid attention to this, but it is particularly NOT DONE in France -- you find a baby sitter if you anticipate "issues" where grownups are dining.

"never point even when talking about directions, don't chew gum, shrug your shoulders, stand with hands in pockets, give the okay sign or sit with knees opened."

If you're a strict disciple of Miss Manners, indeed, you shouldn't do any of these things.

But this would be being a fundamentalist. I doubt that you'll find many french people who even heard that you aren't supposed to point with your finger (a little more would know that you arent supposed to point your finger at *people*). Everybody does it.

Chewing gum? Yes, a number of people thinks it's low class. And a number of people chew gums.

Not keeping your hands in your pockets or sitting with your knees opened? Yes, maybe it applies if you're invited at a formal dinner by the duke of Rohan, but 99% of french peole won't care and will do it.

As for shrugging, I never heard of this one. But maybe it's actually written somewhere in some book about good manners. Shrug away...


The only advice that makes sense in this list is not using the OK sign. If I'm not mistaken about what you're refering to, it means "zero" or "nothing", in France.

If someone was travelling to the States, what customs would you suggest they obstain from in order not to offend? Unless one is behaving in a way that provokes another, I can't imagine that any of these things really matters. I mean let's get serious! So someone does things slightly different in another culture, unless it might provoke or harm another, most people from any given culture would just uhhh, "shrug it off" ...so to speak!

OK sign: I thought it was in Greece and/or Turkey that it's obscene, not in France. (Not sure about Italy, where there are regional differences, and I'd expect some parts might be similar to Greece.)

Don't SHRUG in France? Response: shrug.

Pointing: I think in Turkey it's offensive.

Hands in pockets: Maybe tht is impolite for the same reasons that French table manners prefer hands in plain sight on the table rather than on the lap.

I always wonder why people, in general (NOT islandmom in particular), seem so much more worried about the little rules of etiquette in France than in, for example, England or Ireland or Greece or Norway or Hungary. It's not because so many more travel to France than to any place else; there are plenty of people visiting the UK who don't fret about how not to commit a faux pas. And it's not because France is so "foreign" to the people usually posting their concerns; Turkey is a lot more foreign, and there are more ways a foreigner might inadvertently cause offense there.

I think this thread is hilarious. So many fears about giving offense when, in fact, native good manners will take you anywhere -- just as they would at home.

If you spread your knees in Des Moines, Iowa, then give the Okay sign, you should expect to be misunderstood!

<<If you spread your knees in Des Moines, Iowa, then give the Okay sign, you should expect to be misunderstood!>>

Or understood, as the case may be.

BODY LANGUAGE...the international language!!!

Just enjoy yourself, be polite, have nice manners, dont talk with your mouth full and treat people with Respect.
..These are International Rules that people with a good education understand.

LOL- I'll stay away from Iowa.

I know in Samoa you have to ask for permission from the local leader to use the beach. And if you step over someone's legs it means a sexual move.

I wouldn't think that Americans putting their hand under the table would cause more than mild amusement anywhere, but islandmom, take my advice and please, please, DON'T chew gum.

Amusing thread. My father who was raised in Australia insisted that our left hand was always put on the table. No left hand was to be left on ones lap.

I have heard that custom was so that no husband worried about what was happening to his wife regarding the "gentleman" sitting next to her.

Also heard the custom came about so that noone had to worry about a dinner guest pulling out a weapon with their left hand.

Do not know where the custom came from

Probably our dear Neil_Oz does. In any case, I, from upbringing, always keep my left hand on the edge of the table.
Sure do not want anyone to think I am flirting with the gentleman next to me or that I am going to draw a weapon, LOL.

Kismet has the right idea -- being polite is fairly universal (please/thank you; trying to use the language; restraining your voice; etc.)

Then we get into the issue of customs. These can vary a lot of country to country, e.g. how close people "typically" stand next to each other; whether you hold your tableware American-style or continental style or use your fingers for different types of foods; whether showig the bottom of your foot is offensive; etc. Study this on a case-by-case basis.

Then there is context -- understanding what is a more or less formal situation; appropriate behavior.

After numerous trips to Europe and France in particular, and many European friends, some generalizations:

They basically like us, but find that we are more informal in our dress and behavior than some situations require. Part of this results from living out of a suitcase, and wanting to be comfotable when we walk around ALL DAY and then not change for dinner. If you want to be identified as an American tourist, wear sneakers or other grubby footwear, oversize clothing and sweatshirts (i.e. some americans avoiding anything with a real collar,) shorts of any kind, and baseball caps. All of this would probably be too informal even in cafes that look informal, especially in the evening. Of course, cafes in the high-traffic tourist areas accept all of this "with a shrug." But you'll reinforce the impression that Americans are slobs. Again a lot of it is in the details -- not necessarily formal dress and manners, but items that you don't mistake for doing work around the house.

This is also why the gum-chewing thing isn't evil, but it is associated with lower-class behavior. If you aren't properly dressed to start with, or doing a lot of loud whining, it only reinforces the impression of an ill-mannered person.

Getting out of the habit of chewing gum is a good thing. The French do not really snack between meals. They don't believe that people should have something in their mouths all the time. I've heard comments like "cows" from time to time. (As I've mentioned in a previous message, some don't think I'm American when in earshot.)

Part of it is that Americans often focus more on "individual needs" than social context. Sometimes, this results in louder behavior (e.g. loud joking and antics on a museum line,) taking up more space in the metro, loudly complaining that that "they" should not require you to hold on to your metro ticket because its inconvenient, blocking sidewalks to figure out a map, etc. Even if you are sitting on a park bench, there is a difference between resting in a casual, but courteous and proper way, and looking like you're splayed out after running a marathon. Again, this does not indicate that you are an evil person -- just one who doesn't care about contributing to civic ambiance or courtesy.

For better or worse, part of the problem is that we have become a society less practiced in good manners. I can't blame children who can't settle down if their parents allow them to think of the entire world as a playground. It's hard to fault people about elbows or arms on the table if that has been acceptable at home (it's not.)

I should mention that I help to prepare school of business students at a university for "business dining manners" specifically and travel manners in general. The fact is that many young adults only know fast food places like McDonald's, serve-yourself buffets, and places like Applebee's where the waitstaff is primarily focused on delivering food quickly. Dining in much of France, and public life in general, is as much about experience as getting through the day. There is more of a recognition that there is an individual responsibility in making this happen.

(And my apologies for not spell checking my previous message -- I as on the run, as now.)