French cafe questions from a first timer
 

DH and I leave in 3 days for our first french adventure (Paris and Alsace)! I've scoured the boards for months planning, but I still have two small questions. I know many will probably think these silly questions, so I hope you'll indulge a first-timer for a moment!

First, I know cafes are places to get casual, lighter meals. Does that mean they have the same menu all day? Does it mean I can sit down and get a glass of wine and salad at 8pm? Or are there still "acceptable" foods for lunch vs. dinner?

Second, how do you order wine in a more casual restaurant when you don't speak french? Obviously nicer restaurants have a <i>carte du vin</i>, but what about cafes, bistros, etc.? If they have no list (and you speak no french), is there some sort of standard thing to ask for if you want a glass or carafe? Are house wines very standard, or rare?

Once again, thank you to everyone for all your great insight!

We ate almost exclusively in cafes during our seven nights in Paris. In my experience, it seemed like they had the same menu all day. We ate at 2 pm, 4 pm, 8 pm, and were able to get quiche and croque monsieur-type food at all of these times. (Neither of us were ever really hungry, so we purposely chose these smaller, lighter meals.)

My mom always ordered a glass of wine with her dinner, and also when we just stopped for a drink, pre-dinner. On the menu, the wine is listed by glass (and bottle, maybe -- we only ever ordered by glass). She just always ordered a glass of chardonnay. They had wines listed by reds and whites, and types of each, with by-glass prices listed next to it.

Hope this helps. Rest assured that you will find it to be much easier to deal with when you get there than you think it will be. With a smile, a friendly &quot;bonjour,&quot; and a point with your finger to what you want on the menu, you can get just about anything.

Good luck!

In some of the smaller caf&eacute;s, you may be informed that they are out of the &quot;plat du jour&quot; at some time during the day. But all of the regular stuff should still be available.

Not all cafes have the same menu all day, they won't serve you a steak at 8 am, or whatever the prix fixe dinner is, and they may not serve you certain breakfast foods in the pm. It's like any restaurant in that regard. You probably could get a salad at about any time, a salad isn't just something for evening -- in fact, salads are some of the main things they have at lunch.

You could definitely get a drink at any time.

Any cafe should have a list of some kind (menu in the term used in the US), even if they don't have a separate wine card. That menu will say what choices they have for wine and prices (eg, price for a glass of red, white or rose, price for a half-pitcher or by the bottle, etc). Bottles will have more specific info than what you will have if you just order a glass of red.

There might be some, but I've never been in a cafe or any kind of casual restaurant in Paris that didn't have a menu. I've never been in a cafe that wouldn't allow you to order just a glass of red or white wine (what you are calling &quot;house wine&quot;, I think). YOu will usually have a choice of type of wine (chardonnay, bordeaux versus Cotes du Rhone vs. Brouilly, etc.), even when ordering just a glass. I would hope so, as I would never just order a glass of red or white wine without knowing what kind it was.

You should be able to have just a salad at 8 pm in a cafe, but some restaurants won't serve you that as your sole choice during dinner time. They can't give up the table for someone who won't order a full meal. Some expensive cafes will not even allow you to do that, but most will (eg, I don't think Closerie des Lilas will allow that).

I don;t want to be negative, but before my trip to Paris a few years ago, I had been told that the house wines were in general very reliable, but that wasn't my experience. I did find that there are often 3 grades of house wines, so you may want to up the ante &amp; choose the middle or higher priced offering or ask for help when you order. You should be able to get a glass, 1/2 carafe or whatever quantity you wish. We ordered salads or light meals in the eve, no problem. Have fun!

Ah, this is the type of info I was hoping to get. I know I'm just being a bit anxious, but it is all so overwhelming that it helps to know at least something about the little details!

&quot;vin blanc&quot; is an easy enough phrase to learn :-) get fancy and learn the words for glass and carafe and please... you're good to go!

I always stick to the house wines myself because that seems easiest and they are fine enough for me. They will be served by the single glass or in half (&quot;demi&quot;) or full carafes or sized clay pitchers.

The other way if there is a written wine list showing single glass prices, is to show the waiter by pointing on the menu. Not the classiest I know, but it *will* get you a glass of wine!

I really don't think these are silly questions at all, especially for a first-timer...I've been to Paris twice now, and not being fluent in a foreign language still makes me a bit jittery for the first couple of days.

But, as others have said, and from my own personal experience, the best thing to do is just jump right into the whole experience. I think the first time you sit down at a cafe, or have to order something at a boulangerie/patisserie the nerves are there, but you feel so much more confident after you give it a go. I've noticed that if you at least try to speak to someone in french, it will almost always be appreciated.

Have a terrific trip, and tell us of your cafe experiences!

A glass of wine is about 12cl. When there is a house wine of one of more qualities, you will see prices for <b>carafes</b> or <b>pichets</b> for 1/4 (25cl), 1/2 (50cl) and sometimes 1/1 (1 liter). 25cl is considered to be the quantity for 1 person having a meal, but more is often ordered.

When ordering wine by the glass, you have will have to say more than <b>rouge</b> or <b>blanc</b>, which is why all of those other words are on the list: C&ocirc;tes du Rh&ocirc;ne, Beaujolais, Bourgogne, Val de Loire, etc.

&quot;When there is a house wine of one of more qualities, you will see prices for carafes or pichets for 1/4 (25cl), 1/2 (50cl) and sometimes 1/1 (1 liter).&quot;

As an addendum to Kerouac's post, when ordering house wine, for a 1/4 litre carafe, ask for &quot;<i>un quart de vin rouge/blanc/ros&eacute;</i>&quot; (quart is pronounced more or less like &quot;car&quot;), and for 1/2 litre ask for &quot;<i>un demi de vin rouge/blanc/ros&eacute;</i>&quot;.

Hi M,

&gt;Does it mean I can sit down and get a glass of wine and salad at 8pm?

Usually

&gt;how do you order wine in a more casual restaurant when you don't speak french?

<i>Parlez-vous anglais, Monsieur/Madam, s'il vous plait?</i>

If the answer is &quot;no&quot;,

<i>un quart de vin de maison, blanc/rouge/rose</i> will get you enough for a light dinner - usually quite drinkable.

Try the roses. They are often quite good.

Enjoy your visit.

((I))

I have a dear friend lives permanently in Europe these days. When I get nervous about things like this she reminds me... that they are a business (shop, restaurant, whatever) who has something to sell, which you want to buy. So don't fret too much over the language, you'll work it out because you both want the same thing...

You want a glass of wine, they want to sell you one! Don't be nervous
;-)

kerouac~ I'm sure it would be more savvy to say more words, but I'm here to tell you that &quot;vin blanc&quot; said with a smile will in fact get a glass or small carafe of white wine in front of you most places.

My husband &amp; I were in the Alsace this past March. We ate in small places in small towns and had no problem with ordering, especially wine! The Alsatian wines were a delight and I'm sure that everywhere we went there was at least a small menu listing the wine and food offered at that time. There was definitely one place that was sort of a bar/coffee house where you could get a small bite - cheese, pastry, etc. and it did look like it was the same menu all day long. But again, it really was more of a bar and not a cafe. The only problem we had was trying to eat lunch one day as we were touring the Route de Vin. We were trying to find someplace open and had a tough time because 1) it was a Monday and 2) it was after 2:00 pm. We didn't have that problem in Strasbourg, just in the really small towns and I'm wondering if it also had to do with being a bit off season. We did finally find a place that was open and had a wonderful Gratin and a glass of beer - also very good in the Alsace. You are going to have a great time!

Wow, thank you to everyone for the advice!

Suze, I love your attitude! It is true that the wine will get to our table somehow. And any little blunders are just a part of travel, eh? :)

Thanks again!

My only warning about not saying which wine you want is that since you are tourists, you are likely to end up in certain tourist traps. The food and drink are normally fine in such places, but they will orient you to the more expensive wines if you let them. So just be careful and keep an eye on the variable prices.

A small neighborhood place will normally not try to pull the wool over your eyes, but when in doubt, and if they ask tricky questions (&quot;Alsace? Muscadet? Bordeaux blanc?&quot;), and you just want the basic wine, you can say &quot;blanc ordinaire&quot; (or rouge or ros&eacute;) and they will understand that you want the standard stuff at the cheap price.

&gt;And any little blunders are just a part of travel, eh? :)&lt;

Absolutely! Whenever we screwed something up, we just laughed and chalked it up to &quot;part of the experience.&quot;

As I recall, last time we were in Paris (1998) we were amazed at how inexpensive the wine was (at least the table wine). What's a decent glass of wine going for these days in Paris?

We almost always drink merlot here at home...with everything. What kind of wine should we order in France? Is there anything comparable to California merlots? We've also been known to drink shiraz and red zins, too.

&lt;they will understand that you want the standard stuff at the cheap price&gt;

Everyone always understands that about me without me having to say anything. Must be the desperate tone with which I say &quot;une petite carafe de vin blanc svp&quot; in my poor attempt at French
:-)

But seriously that's a good warning not to get scammed into something more expensive than you seek!

I don't know if the wine we had was considered decent, because we just ordered &quot;generic&quot; glasses of chardonnay or whatever right off the menu, but it seemed to range between 4 to 5E (in cafes in the 6th that we tried).

<i>We almost always drink merlot here at home...with everything. What kind of wine should we order in France? Is there anything comparable to California merlots? We've also been known to drink shiraz and red zins, too.</i>

Wine in France is identified by region of production and not by grape variety. Many wines are a mixture of different grapes.

However, the cheaper wines in supermarkets now mark the grape variety on the bottle, since this is the same stuff that is sent out for export to a lot of countries -- you'll see 'merlot' etc. on those bottles but never on the finer wines.

Oops, meant to indicate that was an answer to Doriana's question.

I used to always buy inexpensive red table wines at Monoprix and bring home, back when you could bring liquids on the plane, and they were OK. I was just wondering what to order in a restaurant...maybe a bordeaux would be similar to a merlot. Cote du Rones are usually a bit too light and fruity for our tastes. Any other regional wines to look for?

Another cafe question - how do you tell a cafe from a restaurant and what is the difference?

I got great info from this thread - thanks.

Well basically one looks fancier than the other ;-)

Seriously, most places have a menu posted on the sidewalk. Paris is no different than your own home town... you could tell a corner pub from Tres Chic Chic, right? By the prices on the menu, by the look of the place when you peak in the window, by the way the customers are dressed if the place is open, by tableclothes or not, by the types of food offered, etc.

Hi TxTish

&gt;We almost always drink merlot here at home...with everything.

It is time to expand your horizons, especially if you order any sort of shellfish - (dry white wine only).

&gt;What kind of wine should we order in France?

The French don't go by varietal. They classify their wines by their origin - <i>terroir</i>

Reds from Bourdeaux are mainly Cabernet Sauvignon and/or Merlot.

Reds from Burgundy are mainly Pinot Noir.

<i>Vin de maison - rouge/blanc/rose</i> could be from a number of places, varietals.

Your waiter will be pleased to help you choose the proper wine, within your budget, to complement your meal.

Do make sure to look at the wine carte prices to avoid sticker shock.

Enjoy your visit.

((I))

Oh, that's a good question too janewb. I guess it's just a matter of observation, asking questions, and not being afraid to make mistakes.

Hopefully I can get my act together when I get back and post my own take on the dining scene for other newbies!

&quot;Dry white wine only with shellfish?&quot;

Ira: Rules like that went out the window long ago.

A cafe is open all day. A restaurant typically is open for lunch, closes to set up again, then is open for dinner, usually after 7pm.

one more thought: if you only want to have a drink, don't sit at a table with a tablecloth and/or place settings. Watch for 'r&eacute;serv&eacute;' cards on a table - you can't sit there.

Drinks usually cost the least if ordered at the counter and consumed there; the next price tier if sitting down inside; the highest tier if at the sidewalk tables. You may not order at the counter then take your drink to a sidewalk table.

Alsace will be great as this is the one main AC area where wines are sold by the variety IF LOCAL. So you will find Pinot Gris and Blanc plus Riesling as the place to start. Local reds only try for fun unless paying good money &quot;Pinot Rouge&quot;. You will also find other french wines and of course Vin de table means European or African wine from a big box outside.

In Alsace they speak French, there is a local Patois but this only means that listening to the locals chat to each other is not French. Local dishes are suarkraut, pigs knuckles and a large bread thing with pig in it. Enjoy

Don't overlook the brasseries! If you stop in Colmar(Alsace)try the beautiful Excelsior.

Actually, for the past several years, there has rarely been a price difference in caf&eacute;s for sitting down inside or outside -- and now that anybody who wants to smoke has to go outside, I don't think that smokers would stand for it if they also had to pay extra.