Operaboy,<BR><BR>I have a question for you.<BR><BR>When exactly do you get on board and support your President and the men and women that are going to be in harm's way?<BR><BR>US

Operaboy,<BR><BR>Please don't put too much time in formulating your response...I've got to get some sleep!<BR><BR>US

Sammy;<BR>Now I know you have no honor and you are a true hypocrite. One of those statements about supporting the Pres.(no matter who) you made to me before and I've seen you post it to others as well. That's too bad. I thought I was dealing with someone who(no matter what their politics), was, at least an honorable opponent.<BR><BR>Clifton; Now you and everyone else can see who and what Sammy is all about.

Operaboy,<BR><BR>KMA!<BR><BR>Goodnight!<BR><BR>US

Sammy;<BR><BR>1969-1973, before I knew better.<BR>And that's all for you tonight.<BR>Your dishonesty is a real disappointment.

operaboy,<BR><BR>I'll give you one more chance.<BR><BR>I never used the word &quot;respect&quot;..I did say that I stood behind my President even Bubba!<BR><BR>Prove otherwise...!<BR><BR>And answer my question ...when are you going to support our President and the men and women in our armed forces?<BR><BR>US

Operaboy,<BR><BR>Because when this war starts and if you do not support them you will have earned the name traitor...deservedly so, I might add!<BR><BR>US

Uncle,<BR><BR>Generally agree as relates to behavior of dissenting Americans abroad, but more as a question of class and logic than civic responsibility. Seems like it's just showboating for personal attention to stand in the middle of Baghdad and air your views for American cameras.<BR><BR>On the other hand, aiding and abetting? Who? Saddam? Isn't he a tyrannical dictator who the Iraqis all need and want liberation from? Are we saying that if Jessica Lange comes out against the war in a low cut dress, the Iraqi population (male mostly) will be driven wild to reconsider Saddam's leadership and ashew the promise of a new Western style culture?<BR><BR>Or is it not the Iraqi people Jessica is influencing with her many charms? What others could it be, that in their state of confusion might have their beliefs so unduly altered as to offer comfort and support to Saddam? Who's left in this equation? Why, surely you don't mean the American people?? <BR><BR>If she's not influencing the Iraqi people, as we already know they hunger for our touch, then could it really be those weak-minded Americans? We that have no beliefs, no morals taught by our parents, we that hang on every word uttered both during the State of the Union address and on Entertainment Tonight, so that we might know which path to follow?<BR><BR>Come on. This country is one I am proud of, despite it's occasional flaws and checkered past, but because of it's potential to really take a LEAD, as an example to the world. What that means is &quot;Do as we do&quot;. Are we comfortable that other nations &quot;do as we do&quot;? Arm as we arm? Police, independantly if need be, as we police? Are you sure that you really want that?<BR><BR>This country was founded on &quot;we the people&quot;. All of the people. The constitution was not founded on the sole principle of majority rule. In fact, there is much more said regarding the rights and protections afforded the minority viewpoint. After all, this was a nation founded on dissent. The founding fathers WERE the minority. They WERE the dissenters, they WERE the rabble-rousing, government-defying traitors of their time.<BR><BR>I, for one, am no liberal and I'm no conservative. It depends on the issue. I believe I owe it to my country to consider each on it's own merits and contribute my small part to the whole. And for heavens sake, give us just a modicum of credit for being able to think for ourselves. It's not a bad tradition, based on the outcome.<BR><BR>I'm telling you, with both sides pulling so hard for their one singular ideal, polar opposite viewpoints of what would constitute Utopia, that it's no wonder that the aforementioned 1/3 in the middle of the political spectrum have become so disenfranchised. Some of us have reality to deal with.<BR><BR>Now that I've went on for some 20 feet of browser space, in counter-point to the American direction.... this thread was about French and BRITISH relations, wasn't it? Dang. We've invaded again.

Uncle Sam, Just yesterday you posted words to the effect &quot;If you don't respect my President, you don't respect my country&quot;.<BR><BR>I thought it nonsense at the time, but you, for sure, did say it. And you sure don't respect Clinton.<BR><BR>However, Like Clifton, I had spotted the &quot;9 out of 10 warlovers said their US hates France&quot; nature of this thread, and had simply put it down to the usual UScentric world they live in.<BR><BR>Interesting I hear on the news this am, that the US has given up on the second resolution to allow war on Monday. Guess Chirac outstared Bush, eh Sammy?<BR><BR>

Sammy(hypocrite)<BR>&quot;I never used the word &quot;respect&quot;..I did say that I stood behind my President even Bubba!&quot;<BR><BR>Typical juggling of the truth. Evasive<BR>and unhonorable.<BR>To your other charge and question, I'll post a reply to everyone for that. You don't merit real answers anymore.<BR>

Operaman,<BR><BR>Oh, I haven't followed Uncle Sam's posts enough to place any kind of tag on him. He and I don't see eye to eye on what constitutes patriotism or respect, but I don't expect that we need to, really.<BR><BR>If I have a point that I'd enjoy making to fuel a debate, especially if it counters said statements by the opposing view, I make it. And I say 'enjoy' because although the topic is serious and the potential of loss staggering, this is simply a chat board. It's influence outside of making a few people bounce in their chairs, is that of f*arting in the wind - it smells bad but it'll blow over quickly and mean nothing.<BR><BR>With that, I don't feel that the importance of the medium leads me go to the lengths of name calling. No offence, but Sam is, just as the rest of us, just blathering on here for entertainment purposes. I just can't get that worked up about something like this.<BR>

Sheila;<BR>Well at least we all know who we are really dealing with. I appreciate your reply on Halliburton, I don't know how they will fare, but I'll keep an open mind on the matter.<BR>I am a vet from long ago and far away.<BR>As much as I am against the war which Bush is trying to foist on us, if it does happen I give all of my support and prayers to the troops. They are just doing a job that they are trained to do; they are not policy makers.<BR>But I will keep after Bush and Co. for starting it. In my opinion, (yes only my opinion) we could put either an army of inspectors on the ground or take just one of all those billions we are spending and put it out as a bounty on old Saddam's head. Either way would be much more cost effective monetarily, in human lives, and in international relations. Just my opinion however.<BR>It must be late..I'm rambling.<BR>Hope this thread remains up for awhile longer.

Clifton;<BR>Believe me, he or the other blustering ones don't get me worked up at all.<BR>I feel the need to call some of them on their words (as they love to try with me). You are right about these posts though. No one is going to change anybody else's mind or politics with them. Maybe it is a good thing, else many of these posters might be out shooting people who they don't agree with. Keep up the wise words and wisdom!

In my case, it's early. I've been in since 6 and it's now 8 and I'm knackered. TGIF.<BR><BR>I honestly don't know if I am against this war. I am against it if it's about terrorism. I think I'm against it if it's about the implementation of the post Gulf War resolutions, since I see little merit in killing people after 12 years.<BR><BR>If it's about him being a violent and probably psychopathic tyrant, with no regard for human rights, I think I would support it. It's just that you have to ask in the context of US foreign policy &quot;why now? why him?&quot;, and the answer has to be oil.<BR><BR>

sheila;<BR>I am in agreement with you on the &quot;why&quot;<BR>issues. I really do believe it is the oil and securing the area so we have access. That will certainly get the blusterers going again if this thread is still up tomorrow!<BR><BR>Time to check out now.<BR>Talk to you again soon.

Morning all. I just took Operaman's quiz and I think I got the question right. How did you do Unc???

Well here I am again another day has gone by and still we are hanging around agonising on this.<BR><BR>Al Quaeda must be over the mooon about this. They thought they were taking down two towers in the USA but instead of that they seem to have suceeded in destroying trust in the UN and Europe as well. They must be celebrating.<BR><BR>Before people come up with the usual talk that Al Quaeda and Iraq are not linked then I would modify that with the word &quot;yet&quot;. Just think of Iraq as &quot;Your local weapons superstore&quot; and you get my drift.<BR><BR>I think the French have behaved appallingly here. The fact is that if they had not sought to split the UN vote in the first place we may not have ever needed to go to war. Imagine Saddam Hussein sitting there in Bagdad knowing that we were all coming for him if he did not relent. The French and Germans etc keep insisting on &quot;peaceful disarmament&quot; but they have scuppered that themselves by breaking the solidarity of the UN and in France's case actively pusuing other nations to vote against the second resolution.<BR><BR>&quot;What does this have to do with travel,&quot; some on this board might ask? <BR><BR>I have been traveling throughout France since 1999 and had planned to continue doing so. I enjoyed the French festivals the easy way of life and the food and wine. Like many people I became &quot;full of France&quot; and all the wonderful culture. This situation has changed all that. I don't feel I can trust France any longer. I wanted Britain to enter the Euro. Now I'm not so sure. Some people say that the case for war has not been made but I feel the case for doing nothing is actually much weaker. The majority of the French public are apparently with Chirac on this so what are the British to think?<BR><BR>To the American's out there. What would you do in the future? How can Britain now work to stay in, become closer to and addopt the currency of such an unsupportive structure such as Europe.<BR><BR>I will probably go on the holiday planned for this year to France unless it becomes dangerous. I won't be able to get my money back on it so it makes sense. I have to say that I feel it will probably be my last holiday there. <BR><BR>I feel let down.<BR><BR>Buzzy

Good that the travel industry in so quiet so i can spend time rebuking Unc_Sam's nonsense with a good sprinkling of liberalism.<BR><BR>Unc_Sam talks of the freedom to have your own point of view in America (though as Brit I fail to see how the UK is different) - yet says that if Operaboy fails to support the military when the war starts he will be a traitor - isn't this pure hypocracy?<BR><BR>

operaman, <BR>on a previous post you state you will keep on bush and co. for starting this with iraq....do you really believe that?

Interesting development this morning--Chirac and Blair are discussing yet another resolution, this time jointly written by Britain and France.<BR><BR>Sources: NPR, RFI

&quot;Uncle Sam, Just yesterday you posted words to the effect &quot;If you don't respect my President, you don't respect my country&quot;.&quot;<BR><BR>That is NOT what I said.... those are merely your &quot;words to the effect&quot;!<BR><BR>I never said respect, what I actually said was, &quot;you attack my President, you attack me regardless of the President?<BR><BR>I would never, ever have used respect and Bill Clinton in the same sentense!<BR><BR>And my point is and was this!<BR><BR>While I disagreed with Bubba about virtually everything he stood for and did. When it came time to put troops in play then I supported the action and would not accept people trashing him, even my Republican friends.<BR><BR>This is exactly what I expect Operaboy to do when the troops are in play. I doubt he will because he does not have the character to do so!<BR><BR>So the next tine you folks decide you want to gang up on the conservative... at least get it right.<BR><BR>Between the distortion of my quotes and the posting of garbage by operaboy frorm questionable sources at best y'all are laughable!<BR><BR>US

Uncle..We are all still waiting for Operamans alternate solutions for disarming SH and getting him out. Inspections and resolutions don't work,so what will?

Correct and I did give hin the opportunity to answer this question as well:<BR><BR>**And answer my question ...when are you going to support our President and the men and women in our armed forces?<BR><BR>US<BR><BR>His answer:<BR><BR>**1969-1973, before I knew better<BR><BR><BR>So based upon that answer it appears to me that if you do not support your own President and your own military...whose leader and military do you support?<BR><BR>US

I have often disagreed with you, but that's the first time I have lost respect for you.<BR><BR>You did say it. You were talking about Bush, and, I suspect, forgot, it would have applied to Clinton too.<BR><BR>Just because it's not here any more son't mean it wasn't there in the first place.

CNBC the Bush administration will start too get more involved in the palestinian/Isaeli issue.. <BR><BR>I guess finaly Bush is reolzing or is getting it bashed over his head that the road too peace in the midle east is not threw Bagdad but threw the Jerusalem.. <BR><BR>but I see this new change of events as a green light for war.. since so many countries kept on throwing the Pal/isael issue on the table when saying they were against the war.. hell I did..<BR><BR>

Sheila, <BR><BR>I do not recall it that way. However we both post here a lot. And if you say that I did then you either misunderstood or I actually did it!<BR><BR>If I did in fact say that, I apologize!<BR><BR>US

&quot;I guess finaly Bush is reolzing or is getting it bashed over his head that the road too peace in the midle east is not threw Bagdad but threw the Jerusalem.. '<BR><BR>Not neccessarily so!<BR><BR>The road through Bagdad eliminates the funding and cover for terrorist organizations like Hammas and the rewading of homicide murderers families receiving cash from Saddam.<BR><BR>US

Buzzy,<BR>Thank you for your succinct summation of the situation &lt;I think that if the French had not sought to split the UN in the first place we may never had needed to go to war&gt; You hit the nail on the head. Also you did a great job of bringing it back to a travel question - especially on a personal level.<BR> No one wants to go to war. This is not a board game of RISK. People will die. You have to ask yourself - are their causes that you are willing to die for? After 9/11 Americans realized that our way of life way was threatened. Traditional methods of defending our way of life would not be effective. Going after Al Quaida and overthrowing the Taliban in Afghanistan was a heroic and proper response. At some point last summer, US and British intelligence realized that it was only a matter of time before a rogue dictator, ie. SH, would be in a position to provide nuclear weapons to Al Qaida terrorists. Bush and Blair realized that if they sit back and do nothing at this point, in two years, five years, 10 years when terroists will detonate a nuclear bomb somewhere in the world, History will ask , Why didn't you do something when you had the chance?<BR>Unfortunately, Bush has bungled the handling of this from a public relations standpoint. Instead of rallying world opinion in our favor, he has set himself up as this huge target for dozens of divergent groups,interests and countries to vent misguided hostility and anger. Instead of staring down Saddam, he antagonized the world. It's like the hypnotist, who instead of hypnotizing the intended victim, he mesmerizes the person standing behind him.<BR>There is still time to see the light!<BR>JoeG