Kat207

Hi All

After countless hours within these forums, I’ve built a draft itinerary for our upcoming 5 week holiday in Europe next July/Aug (flying in and out from Paris)

For those that have experienced these countries, do you have any changes or suggestions you would make to the below draft itinerary? Do it feel too rushed?

We are in our 30’s, so easily able to move around, but also want to soak up the atmosphere of each town. We love our food and wine and the culture that comes with that!
I am open to as many changes as you see fit, the only change we can’t make is San Sebastian & Mojacar as we are meeting up with friends.

Paris (5th or 6th quarter) - 5 nights
Train to Bordeaux - 2 nights
Train to San Sebastian - 3 nights (via train change at Irun station)
Mojacar - 3 nights (We’ll be staying with friends who will pick us up from San Sebastian)
Drive to Seville - 2 nights (looking at hiring a car from Almeria)
Fly or Train to Barcelona - 3 nights
Fly to Rome - 4 nights
Train to Florence - 3 nights
Train to Cinque Terre 1 night (or extra night in Florence)
Train to Venice - 2 nights
Train or Hire Car to Lucerne or Interlaken – 3 nights
Train to Paris 0 1 night (to catch a 12pm flight home from Paris the following day)

Finally, my next step is to start looking at accommodation…I am happy to do the research on this, but if you have any MUST SEE/STAY suggestions that we should look at, definitely open to hear those too. We are currently estimating around the 150 (euros) mark per night/close to the main attractions where possible.

Thanks in advance for any help you are able to provide!

PalenQ

What are you going to do in 2 days in Bordeau or 1.5 days - the city is OK but most think it pales before many other places in the area - like Albi or St Jean-de-Luz or Biarritz, etc.

I can see if you are renting a car there to tour the ballyhooed Bordeaux vineyards - if you want to stay in a town right in the middle of a sea of vineyards and has several wine houses in town to visit then take the train to Saint-Emilion (change at Lilbourne to the sideline to Saint-Emilion.

Or perhaps you have friends in Bordeaux - well anyway Bordeaux has nicely spruced its former gritty self up and has some remarkable old architecture but does not excite most folks who comment on Fodor's anyway.

Have you check drop off charges for hiring a car in Italy and return it in Switzerland - could have a steep drop-off charge?

Or drop the day from the Cinque Terre and add a day and go by train, taking the famntastic Bernina Pass railway - the most awesomly scenic in Europe to me but requiring a stay en route at St Moritz - next day go onto Lucerne of Interlaken.

Or just spend the several hours on a day train Venice-Milan-Brig/Visp-Spiez-Interlaken or Lucerne

For lots of great info on European trains check out these IMO fine sources: www.seat61.com (great info on discounted tickets from national railway web sites); www.ricksteves.com and www.budgeteuropetravel.com.

oedipamaas

I don't see any place that's obviously too rushed, though for me 2 nights in Seville is not enough time. The bigger issue is that all those short stays are going to add up and feel exhausting by week 5. I would consider putting in a longer stay in the middle of your trip to relax, catch up on rest, and dig in deeper into a given place. I'm talking about a 6+night stay somewhere. Or even two.

michelhuebeli

I question why you'd get back to Paris, with all that time and distance and expense, just to go board a plane? Make it a MultiCity ticket (unofficially called "open-jaw"), into Paris and home from Zürich (ZRH) or Geneva (GVA) airports. They often cost no more than a point-to-point return ticket (what Americans call "roundtrip" even though there is nothing "round" about it), and if it does cost a bit more, quite likely you're still better off not having to make that trip at the end of your trip.

RonZ

My first reactions were to scrap Bordeaux and fly open jaw.

You can take a train from Paris to San Sebastian with a change in Irun, but I don't think you'll arrive until around 7PM.

For auto rental questions I'd call Autoeurope using the toll free number.

In Florence we like the Hotel Pendini, Rome the Hotel Italia.

ekc

That is too much packing/unpacking/train station/airports for me, but it might be just right for you. Keep in mind that every time you change cities, you lose half of a day: pack, check out of hotel, get to train station (or airport), train ride/flight, get from station/airport to hotel, check in, freshen up, then its time for lunch. So that means you have 3.5 days in Rome, 2.5 days in Florence, 1.5 days in Venice. With 10 stops you are losing 5 days of vacation.
If you absolutely must see CT, do it as a daytrip from Florence or scrap it and add the day to Venice (which would be my preference).

michelhuebeli

If you “do” Bordeaux, after one day in town you should get a car and spend at least one day in the region - drive as far as east as Périgeux and down to Bergerac and stop by St. Emilion before returning to Bordeaux - there are many more worthwhile stops along that route that you can plan on doing if you look into it. That’ll really make that Bordeaux stopover rewarding.

While based in San Sebastian (be aware that it is also called Donostía, in Basque), make the trip to Bilbao - see www.visitbilbao.info/main.php?idioma=en

For transportation between Donostía and Bilbao, a bus that leaves every half hour and take 70 minutes, see
www.pesa.net/pesa/public_home/ctrl_home.php
Another bus company is at http://www.alsa.es/rutas/bilbao-san-...n-donostia.htm

Bedar

Skip Bordeaux and take the train to San Sebastian from Paris. Visit Bilbao and take a flight from there to Almeria. Pick up a car and drive to Mojacar. Drive to Seville via Granada and Cordoba. Fly to Barcelona.

Surely you weren't saying that your friends were going to pick you up in San Sebastian and drive to Mojacar ??? That is a two day drive ! You'll have a great time in Mojacar. We lived there for many years. What's missing from your trip in Spain is a stop in Madrid which we prefer to Barcelona. If your friends really are going to drive you from SS to Mojacar, you'll see it then.

Kat207

PalenQ – thankyou!!! Re. Bordeux, we thought it was a good idea to visit a wine region whilst in France, for some reason I narrowed down to this place, thought it was nice and close to San Sebastian (next stop) too….but maybe I need to do some more research. Love the idea of the Bernina Railway, going to do some research on that! Thanks for the site too – very helpful!

Oepidamaas – thanks, we were going to spend 6 nights in Mojacar but finding it hard to cross places off our list to extend out stays. Might give it another thought though

Michelhuebeli – unfortunately we’ve already booked out tickets in a spontaneous moment not thinking about the ins and outs….so stuck with Paris for both ways. Re. Bordeux, we thought we would do day ‘tours’ to the region, but maybe a hire car is a good option to look into. Thanks for the additional tips

RonZ – thanks for the tips

Ekc – thanks good point, and thinking you are right about CT, its everyone else that keeps telling me it’s a ‘must see’

Thankyou all so much….keep them coming!

StCirq

Why Bordeaux? The whole thing is far too rushed for me, but I do have the luxury of being in France a whole lot.

Kat207

Bear - sorry missed your post, friends are actually coming from elsewhere and we are meeting up in San Sebastián and driving back with them, via 1 night stay in a town I can't remember. But good point re. Madrid, I was tossing between Barcelona and Madrid and decided based on the forums that Barcelona was the preferred option

StCirq - not sure really thought the wine region would be interesting, looking at scrapping this now based on all the great feedback here!

dreamon

You are covering a lot of ground which will take time and money.

I would consider dropping Barcelona and adding those days to places that you are already staying. Check Vueling for airfares from Spain to Italy (maybe from Seville?).

Also think about grouping all your days in Paris at the end - although that might muck up your dates with your friends? It would just mean packing up one less time. You could head off straight from Paris airport to your first stop.

Why hire a car for Seville? What are your thoughts there? You won't need one for Seville itself.

The main thing to do at Cinque Terre is walking and you don't really have enough time to do that if you stay only one night. Personally I would skip that too, to make your trip more relaxing rather than stay one night only. Check journey times if you decide to do it as a day trip from Florence (www.trenitalia.com) as it's nearly 3hours each way - I wouldn't do it.

I would take the train from Venice to Switzerland. It's a long journey (about 7 hours roughly from memory).

You'll have a great time, I'm sure.

PalenQ

not sure really thought the wine region would be interesting, looking at scrapping this now based on all the great feedback here!>

but Bordeaux though the commercial capital of the Bordeaux wine region is not really a wine region - just a commercial town where wine is bought and sold - but if you want to go to a Saint-Emilion - easy enough to reach by train and spend a whole day there (2 nights) then you will be right in the center of miles of vineyards and in town several wine cellars to see how the wine is aged, etc.

Bedar

OK, so you are driviing from SS to Mojacar and will undoubtedly be going thru Madrid. I'd try to persuade your friends to stop in Madrid for a couple of days at least and stop in Toledo for a look around on your way south. Once you get your car in Almeria, head for Granada, Cordoba, and Seville. As Dreamon said, fly from Seville to Rome. Scratch Barcelona; save it to combine with a trip to the South of France later on.

PalenQ

Aranjuez - the Spanish Versailles is also easy to incorporate into a driving trip into or out of Madrid to Toledo or Cordoba.

Kat207

Dreamon – great advice regarding Paris on the end, don’t know why I didn’t think of that earlier! Also decided to cut out Cinque Terre, from all your feedback I can see we needed more time there. Train is definitely now on the list!

PalenQ – not sure out thought either now, sounded good at the time but its now scrapped! Thanks for the heads up on the Spanish Versailles too!

Bedar – while Madrid still hasn’t made the plans, we are flying from Seville to Rome (works perfect!) but we are doing Barcelona at the beginning, I just couldn’t say no to it while I was over there! But we will vist Granda while down in Mojacar

This is now how we are looking, while it still the same timing in cities, I think it’s a better way to travel around.

*Arrive into Paris, fly straight to Barcelona – 3 nights
*Train from Barcelona to Bilbao, stay there 1 night
*Bus to San Sebastian, 3 nights
*Pick up car with friends, head to Mojcar – 4 nights (potenitally with a stop over)
*Drive to Seville with friends – 3 nights (friends will be driving the car back to drop off at Almeria, costs aren’t too bad)
*Fly to Rome – 4nights
*Train to Florence – 4 nights (No CT)
*Train to Venice – 2 nights
*Venice to Switzerland on the Bernia Express! Overnight stay in St Moritz
*Then need to decide on where the next base in Switzerland will be (likely something feasible from Chur) – 3 nights
*Switerland to Paris – 5 nights
*Fly home

Thanks all so much for your input, hopefully you think this works! I am feeling much better about the layout maximing travel time where possible!

harriet_hughes

Be sure to consider size limits on carry-on bags if flying budget airlines within Europe. Sizes allowed are smaller than US airlines.The flights are cheap, but being forced to check a bag or two at the counter can add considerably to the cost. Also, Ryan Air charges through the nose if you don't print boarding passes beforehand. No complaints from me about service and price of these airlines; just be aware of restrictions.

Kat207

Thanks Harriet, good tip!!!

Mimar

Much improved itinerary. If you're arriving after a long, overnight flight, spending that first jet-lagged day getting to Barcelona is a good use of your time. Although you could also consider just changing your tickets to open jaw, into Barcelona. The cost of changing might be equivalent to cost of the flight from Paris to Barcelona.

Unless you're great fans of Renaissance art and architecture, I'd take a day from Florence and add it to Venice. Do you have plans for excursions from Florence? Both Florence and Venice will be very busy and crowded during the summer high season; it's nice to get away, to the islands in the Venetian lagoon or to the Tuscan countryside.

Kat207

Thanks Mimar, glad its improved yes I was planning to get away to the Tuscan countryside....that's why I had 4 nights so I was able I to do some day trips....but I'll consider adding to Venice too! Thanks again