France, Spain and Portugal - any places to consciously skip?
 

A friend and I are planning to go to France, Spain and Portugal next June and are slowly putting together our itinerary (working in the itinerary I previously began drafting).



We have about 4 weeks across the three countries so it will be a busy trip to say the least, and yes, I am aware we will not see everything.


Nonetheless, I would love to hear, from those who have been to any of these countries, are there any cities/towns/places you would consciously skip if you went again, and if so, why? It would be interesting to see the places people say to avoid and the reasons why ahead of putting together our final itinerary (if it helps, we love history and would love an experience of traditional culture).

Roubaix, a rust belt industrial town on the Belgium border. Lille (next door) on the other hand has some good art.

Some of the towns in the outskirts of Paris (so beyond the banlieue) where Paris has sucked much of the soul out of the town and made them dormatory towns.

Marbella, just a bit grotty, with too many unpleasant people, Malaga, on the other hand is really sweet again with some great art.

I think I'd focus on June traditional culture links as a more positive way to go. Most traditional things change with the seasons, in June you may have some sea blessing going on, some religious stuff and possibly some bull fighting. If you decide to see bull fighting please see the French style, do not see the Spanish style which is just cruel and should have been banned years ago. https://www.npr.org/2013/09/14/22078...-a-way-of-life

https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2...-greece-sweden

Monaco/Monte Carlo. Only go to Cathedral and Royal Palace if you go there. . Crowds everywhere, high rises, yachts belonging to wealthy ex pats.

How about listing the itinerary you are considering and asking if anyone did not enjoy any of the places you plan to visit?

So far we have loosely planned to visit Paris, Strasbourg (incl visits to Colmar, Riquewihr and surrounds), Dijon (incl a day trip to Beaune), Lyon, somewhere in Provence (trying to decide where to base ourselves but would love to visit Luberon, Avignon, Aix-en-Provence and see the Lavender Trail), Barcelona, Madrid (incl day trip to Toledo), Seville, Cordoba, Granada, Lisbon and Sintra.

There is a long list of what we'd love to see but not all of it is doable hence I thought maybe we'd see if by chance any places on our tentative list were suggested to be skipped though I will definitely do an itinerary post later once we've decided if the above list is set (ideally to gauge time allocations between all the locations).

Unless a town or destination is a complete dud (and this is rare is Spain and Portugal), I'm disinclined to discourage anyone from going there. I've travelled enough to know how interesting or aesthetic a place might be even if it does not attract the tourist crowds. If someone advises against a place, at least be sure they're telling you why -- reading this and similar forums, I've found that people will sometimes dismiss a place just because it doesn't have a Famous and Fabulous Tourist Spectacle found in one of those 100-Places-To-See-Before-You-Die lists. ("Nothing to see there," they'll naively tell you.) One of my main goals is to avoid tourist crowds, and I originally got onto these internet forums to find out where people are NOT going. (And I've had some great trips as a result.) You probably won't want to go to that length, but bear in mind that one of your stated interests -- traditional culture, at least authentic as opposed to staged -- does not always survive tourist onslaughts very well.

I can totally understand that - I visited Norway back in 2018 and one of my biggest regrets was spending too much time in Oslo and not enough time in the heart of Norway or along the coast exploring the amazing landscape that Norway is famed for.

It is tricky because I am from Australia so travelling to the Northern Hemisphere is quite the trek and am scared of flying / have a husband who won't travel with me (I am scared of flying but his fear is on such a level we'd have to take 'the long way' if we ever needed to move internationally) so I don't have the time or ability to dedicate large portions of time to thoroughly explore any one location or go off the beaten path where I either have to drive around or it takes me much longer to get to, hence I tend to stick to the touristy places due to their accessibility.

I will have to scour some of your responses to other forums to see what pearls of wisdom I can find re the countries I am planning to visit this time around to see if any of the places you've been / suggest are feasible :)

Well
Paris, Strasbourg, Colmar, Riquewihr and surrounds, Dijon (incl a day trip to Beaune), Lyon, Luberon, Avignon, Aix-en-Provence and see the Lavender Trail), Barcelona, Madrid (incl day trip to Toledo), Seville, Cordoba, Granada, Lisbon and Sintra
all look good and we can add other places to go with them.

There is a debate about Avignon etc live at the moment that covers it pretty well. Camargue is worth adding to the list there
Riquewihr is a bit disneyesque (but nice..ish) compared to some of the other towns along the edge of the Vosges, while the Vosges thenselves are also worth exploring

I know I'm the outlier here and I too try not to discourage people from their travel plans, but having just returned from Portugal, Lisbon would be pretty low on my list, merely from a crowd standpoint. Perhaps this won't be an issue next June, but right now Portugal (Lisbon and Sintra in particular) is very busy and that to me personally, is a major drawback. Your mileage may vary of course, and you may enjoy that type of vibe, but you have an awful lot on your wish list for a four week trip, (we spent three weeks in Portugal), so something will have to give anyway.

I realize this is very subjective and things may very well change, but I'd feel remiss if I didn't answer truthfully.

Easter is a special time in Portugal, maybe that had an influence

Yes, excessive crowds can make any place less attractive than it might otherwise be. We visited Lisbon a few years ago and loved it - we only had a day and a half there, but it was great and we knew we'd be back. So if this was my itinerary, I'd keep it.

For the Spain portion of your trip - if I were to cut something from your list, it would be Seville. I did like Seville and think it is very much worth visiting, but of the places on the list (Barcelona, Madrid (incl day trip to Toledo), Seville, Cordoba), Seville is the one that I didn't enjoy as much as the others.

People complaining about crowds while they were one of the crowd. It's ironic.
The Easter weekend is very popular in Europe for city trips, as some people have a 4-day weekend. Amsterdam was super crowded too. Is that a reason not to go, when you have never been and want to see it and only have Easter week? When you moved away from the crowds there were plenty of quiet places.

Your list looks great, I have not been to all places. The only thing I can say is to stick to what interests you when you are visiting a city or town. Don't visit a museum just because it is on some 'must see' list.

I think it's difficult to ask others what they liked, or didn't like, as everyone has such different ideas. Some love small museums, others find them tedious. Some love festivals and crowds, other people seek nature and quiet. Out of the three countries you mention, Spain is the one I would not recommend, we didn't enjoy our time there. There are many, many others who will disagree. One idea is to read as many trip reports as you can, check Trip Advisor for things to do in each place to see what appeals, check Google Images for cities or towns you aren't sure of and see what grabs you.

Australia is such a long distance from Europe that it is tempting to see as much as possible but the trips we've enjoyed the most are when we slow down, having three or four nights somewhere, or longer. If you do a daily itinerary for your trip and find you can only manage a day in some cities before you have to move on again, I'd consider cutting a country out. We are Australians too and those long, long flights are horrible but I'd still suggest fewer places, spending more time in each.

I just re-read your post about not wanting to drive in Europe and totally agree. We had five weeks in France a few years ago and just used public transport, mostly trains. Thoroughly recommend this website for everything to do with train travel https://www.seat61.com/

“think it's difficult to ask others what they liked, or didn't like, as everyone has such different ideas. Some love small museums, others find them tedious. Some love festivals and crowds, other people seek nature and quiet. Out of the three countries you mention, Spain is the one I would not recommend, we didn't enjoy our time there. There are many, many others who will disagree.

A Chacun Son Goût !

Exactly ! Spain is my favourite country in Europe. We have been visiting every year for the last 10-15 years.
Another poster mentioned Seville as the place to skip…well, we stayed in the city twice , and would gladly do it again.

On the other hand, I have no desire to revisit Provence.
As always, one’s taste is strictly subjective.

Probably. But I think the general un-leasing of so many travelers after two years of COVID limitations played an even bigger role. But as I said in my post, June next year may be an entirely different story.

I try to avoid dense crowds myself (not great for my anxiety) though many of the destinations on the list are popular so I don't imagine we will be able to really avoid it unless we go a little bit earlier.

I would like to do Portugal on this trip since it is next door to Spain and I genuinely don't know when I will next return to that neck of the woods to see it. It is going to be a big trip no doubt but I have certainly done more intensive trips before - it definitely isn't for everyone but unfortunately I don't have the financial or time luxury to spend as long as I'd actually like over there and realistically I probably won't be in such a position for a number of decades :P

Thank you for the suggestion re Seat 61 - I will look into it!

It is quite tricky because I work a very demanding job (that doesn't pay enough just yet) and will be starting a family within the next few years so I would like to see what I can before that happens since thereafter my travel opportunities will be limited for some time but having previously done 8 countries in 6 weeks and being content with it, this will probably be at a more relaxed pace!

Out of curiousity, what was it about Spain that you didn't like? As you have said there are many who love Spain so I am very interested to hear what it was that made you dislike it?

Marbella and Monaco ….just dire.

We have friends and family who loved Spain so we must be in the minority in having it as our least favourite European country. We were in Granada and felt an undercurrent of violence. There were handwritten signs by locals warning tourists to be careful. Also badgering, aggressive gypsy women but we've come across that in other countries too. There was nothing that made us want to return. We had the opposite happen in Belgium. I thought we'll go there, it will be a bit boring (all that EU stuff) and we'll cross it off our list. Instead we loved it and returned quite a few times, to Brussels, Brugge and Ghent. All great, wonderful architecture, friendly locals, good food, easy public transport. I guess you don't know what you'll enjoy until you try.

I am sorry you didn't enjoy Granada, KayF. We really enjoyed it and hope to return someday. We felt safe there but are used to being vigilant as the downtown area of our home city can be challenging.