France: Musical Graves?
 

Walking around the large Orleans, France municipal cemetery recently i noticed quite a few notices put on the graves warning the family to pay up or else

I asked my French friend what that meant and she said that in France you pay for your cemetery plot by the year or a few years at a time usually and if you do not pay they dig up the corpse and casket, etc. and move it to a common grave site and rent out your old plot

This rather shocked me as in the U.S. i think we have grave sites that perpetual and cemeteries have boards that guarantee funds to run the place, etc.

But perhaps with the shortage of land in France that would be unpractical in France?

Anyway it seems they play musical graves in French cemeteries???

At Pere Lachaise you're dug up after 100 years and moved elsewhere, unless you're famous. So I wouldn't be surprised if the caskets are removed in other cemetaries.

In most of France, grave concessions are "perpetual" and graves are only removed if the cemetery is getting full and the grave appears to have been abandoned for at least 50 years.

Big cities are another matter.

Paris is very complicated. Perpetual concessions are still sold, at a very high price. (5455€ per square meter)

The old scale of concessions was for 10, 30, 50 or 100 years. 100 year concessions stopped being available in 1959. Current concessions are for 5, 15, 30 or 50 years. Jim Morrison was buried in 1971 in a 30-year concession and there was a big brouhaha in 2001 about whether he was going to be dug up or not. The city of Paris finally decided that he could stay, even though his presence perturbs Père Lachaise (well, not his presence but the visits by some of his fans -- they even had to install infrared video cameras specially for him).

A perpetual concession in Paris is removed if "in a state of manifest abandon, and/or if the condition of the grave can jeopardize cemetery visitors or the surrounding graves." The grave is posted and anyone interested then has 4 years to get things repaired or cleaned up. If nothing happens after 4 years, the grave is removed and the concession is put back on the market.

In the Netherlands you have a grave for even less time, I think initially it is only 10 years. If you don't pay more the grave is cleared and a new occupant moves in.
Lack of space leads to such things.
Me? I'm going to be cremated thanks.

Not unknown in London, either.

And why do you think there are so many ossuaries around the continent?

What on earth difference does it make? The people are dead. I'm not surprised nobody pays to keep up the cemeteries. I could care less what somebody does with my bones apres life.

This system is also true in Italy. My friend just transferred her long-dead father from one cemetery to a cheaper one.

Those are very interesting facts from kerouac. I think 5455 euro for a perpetual concession of 1 m2 in Paris (if that means it pays for the upkeep) is "dirt" cheap. I just paid $5000 for a cremation plot in some very small town in Ohio, which covered perpetual upkeep, and that was probably only about 1 m2. Why do you think that is so expensive, that seems a bargain, unless you have to pay a lot each year on top of that.

<i>I just paid $5000 for a cremation plot in some very small town in Ohio, which covered perpetual upkeep</i>

In all my life, I've never heard of a &quot;cremation plot&quot;. I thought one of the points of cremation was so you don't need a &quot;plot&quot;.

My son's French mama is also planning on being cremated but then have her ashes put in a family cemetery plot and have her name inscribed on the headstone - she says so that her (and my) son can come there and pay homage to her, etc. - did not say homage but come there and remember her

I told here if it were my mom i'd rather her not be in any cemetery where i may have to by duty go and pay for the rent, etc. Seems like saddling someone with something for nothing

my parents were both cremated and thank God they are not in some cemetery where i have to go

we have their ashes in a container and even that i could care less about.

I remember them fondly and think often about them and how lucky i was in this world to have some decent loving parents that so many kids never have

But whatever Christina's desire is is also very fine with me - i just too don't understand why

Sometimes it's the family who wants their loved one to be 'laid to rest' where they can come and 'visit' them. My mother changed her plans for cremation because it upset her granddaughter (Mom was dying in the hospital so emotions were high all around). She and my Dad bought a double plot then. My nephew (the same granddaugher's brother) died in a car accident and was also buried there. My Dad's dachsund passed on, and we had a 'secret ceremony' and now the dog's ashes are interred just behind the gravestone, under the etching of a small dachsund.

As for me - I've told family and friends I want to be cremated and scattered at the airport!

<i>I remember them fondly and think often about them and how lucky i was in this world to have some decent loving parents that so many kids never have</i>

My feeling exactly. My mother was not cremated, is buried in a cemetery and I have never been to the cemetery to &quot;visit&quot; in 11 years - I honestly see no point. I can remember her anywhere. Though, I guess if I felt being buried in a cemetery were important, then I wouldn't want to be &quot;relocated&quot;.

Kerouac............ and once a concession runs out or a grave site is abandoned, where do the remains go for reburial?

In Paris (actually at the Cimeti&egrave;re Parisien de Thiais next to Orly -- it is by far the largest cemetery for Parisians and is still half empty even though it opened in the 1920's -- it is worth a look on Google Earth), there is a 'memorial garden' for the remains of disinterred people. All of the indigents are buried in Thiais by the city of Paris but in 5 year concessions (long enough for families to appear and reclaim long lost relatives if desired). I attended the burial of an American friend in January there, who died penniless, and I was quite impressed both by how dignified the employees are, even when there is no one present, and also by the burial 'assembly line' with all of the identical tombs. They do 2 or 3 burials a day and the cement lids are ready to be popped off at any time.

Anyway, I would just assume that disinterred people from other Paris cemeteries would be brought to the disposal area in Thiais. My own curiosity would be what happens to the rings and other jewelry that they are sure to find in some of the abandoned tombs?

........and thank you Kerouac for your most helpful reply. And my curiosity would be satisfied too if you were to post at a later date to let us know what does happen to any jewellery found.

Perhaps to a fund for upkeep of the cemetery .......... ?