Palenque

I was totally shocked when i read a recent story in the NYTimes article that talked about some cash-strapped towns actually tearing down their old Parish Churches because of the staggering cost to keep them standing - and then replacing the old churches with smaller modern strucutres that would not be so costly to keep propped up.

Gesté Journal - Rising Price of Faith in France's Shrinking ...
Jan 5, 2010 ... Rising Price of Faith in France's Shrinking Parishes. Cedric Martigny for The New York Times. Gesté's neo-Gothic church, seen through a shop ...
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/05/wo.../05france.html

And it seems more and more town councils are having to grapple with having to pay lots of euros to prop up their churches, little used these days in many towns. Some towns have already demolished their old churches, according to the article.

Well to me this is awful news because traveling thru France the parish church punctuating every little hamlet is one reason i find France so bucolic and old-worldish.

Now with (article says) " some 90,000 churches in France yet standing and with 17,000 under French government protectionfor their historic orarchitectural value" the major churches are safe - but it's the other 73,000 or so not so protected that the article says are often crumbling.

The article also says that France's 90,000 standing churches give France the greatest density of religious buildings in Europe.

so hopefully the so far small number of parish churches demolished will stay a trickle i still am shocked that any town or hamlet in France would vote to tear down its churches, as several so far have done.

Sacrilege - Mon Dieu!

kerouac

If they cannot find a way to convert some of these churches to some other use, it is probably better to tear them down than let them fall into ruin. Many of the village churches are vaguely quaint and have always been a part of the rural skyline, but the vast majority have no architectural value whatsoever. My own ancestral village lost its priest already about 30 years ago, and most of the villages have to share one priest for 5 or 6 villages, so they can have a mass in the village about every month and a half, and there had better not be too many funerals at the same time.

Regular religious practice has dropped below 10%, and I don't really see it coming back, so they should think about converting some of these old churches into cultural centers, gymnasiums, libraries or something else that the villagers find more useful. After the French Revolution, most churches in France were used as barns to store hay. Even Notre Dame was just a warehouse.

Don't expect the French to get excited about it happening again.

Palenque

Well said -and i do understand the staggering problem with dwindling funds, etc. at the local level for daunting maintenance expenses for what - the odd funeral or wedding?

Nevertheless it seems really triste to me to here about a small town having to tear down its landmark structure. Converting to other uses sounds great - and this would also keep the architectural integrity.

Kerouac points out what many Americans may fail to realize - that many of these parish churches may only date from the 1800s - younger than many an American church.

bardo1

Can't these villages simply tax themselves whatever the cost of annual maintenance is and divide the cost amoung all the village residents? How do other villages in other European countries pay for the upkeep of rarely used old churches? Is it up to parishoners or is it the town (or county or country) at large? Just curious - I have no idea what the answer is...

Nikki

If it is true that after tearing down the old churches the towns are putting up smaller new ones, as the original post states, then I don't really see the point. People who want to go to religious services already have to leave their own villages to do so most of the time, since each church only has services once every month or two. Why put up new ones for which there is no real need?

It does seem a shame to lose the old buildings though, and if there is a way to maintain them by converting to other public uses, that would be great. The cost of converting them must be very high, though, especially the older ones.

Palenque

bardo - the article makes it sound like yes except for the 17,000 or so the French government deems noteworthy - either historically or architecturally - then it is up to the local town council or whatever to pick up the tab - the village in question in the article has 2,300 people or so - and probably not all that wealthy people and the cost of rehabbing the church, roped off since 2006 because of the danger of falling stones or whatever, i think would be staggering.

Kerouc i am sure knows exactly the answer to who has to pay- i gather the Catholic Church is not involved to any great degree and it is the State's responsibility?

Pvoyageuse

Churches built before 1905 when the law on the separation of church and state came into effect belong to the State. The town council is responsible for them. Those built after 1905 belong to the Church.

kerouac

Yes, that's exactly what I was planning to reply -- and obviously not very many churches have been built since 1905. Naturally, the Catholic church is welcome to contribute as much as it wants to any of the restoration or reconstruction projects, but basically it is usually the government that foots the bill -- and it paid a fortune to restore and rebuild the churches damaged or destroyed in the two world wars. In recent years, the Ministry of Culture helps out considerably when there is a major project or damage to repair (like the damage to Notre Dame and the cathedral of Reims during the monster storm of 1999), but it is felt that the religious authorities are not doing their share.

Michael

<i>Can't these villages simply tax themselves whatever the cost of annual maintenance is and divide the cost amoung all the village residents?</i>

Rural taxes are relatively high on housing, at least that is my personal experience. Being resolutely <i>laïque</i>, I say that it is up to the Catholic (or Protestant in some cases?) Church to take care of its property. As pointed out, any church of historical value is protected and to some degree maintained by the Ministry of Culture.

flanneruk

If European Christians hadn't been pretty ruthless about tearing churches down and rebuilding them over the past 1500 years, we'd have no St Peter's (so maybe there IS a case for keeping everything unchanged), no Assisi basilica and practically none of Europe's other cathedrals and basilicas.

Or any of the churches Pal Q's getting worried about.

Catholics seem to have a bit of a doctrinal - or at any rate cultural - hangup about all this. Maybe I just visit the wrong villages - but French village parish churches seem far more reluctant than their English CofE counterparts to allow other Christian denominations to share, or to add other uses like cafes, post offices or hiring for lectures, recitals etc.

There also seems to be a disciplinary problem. C of E churches are to a large extent run by parishioners (and in towns like mine, by non-C of E townsfolk as well): the priest almost just turns up to officiate at the services. Catholic churches in France seem much more dominated by the church hierarchy. So the collapse in priest numbers seems to have undermined the real estate much more than in England.

Where, remember, the C of E maintains its architectural heritage with hardly a penny from the taxpayer.

Amazing this separation of church & state malarkey isn't it? Americans have it - so you can't teach evolution for fear of upsetting the tetchy Christians. The French have it - and the taxpayer subsidises Catholic places of worship.

Just hypocritical 18th century dogmatism.

kerouac

I just wish that my tax money would stop paying for the private religious schools.

Nikki

"Amazing this separation of church & state malarkey isn't it? Americans have it - so you can't teach evolution for fear of upsetting the tetchy Christians."

One can and does teach evolution in US public schools. It is those who object to the teaching of evolution who also object to the separation of church and state.

In France private religious schools are subsidized by the state? How does this comport with the separation of church and state?

Palenque

My son in France went to a Catholic school supported by State funds - but do not assume that the school was anything Catholic but in name - oh there was a weekly Mass many kids just did not go to but the staff, my understanding, was all State paid and certified personnel -maybe i am wrong in this understanding of State-run private schools?

Pvoyageuse

"In France private religious schools are subsidized by the state? How does this comport with the separation of church and state?"

Without entering into too many details, it is considered that schools whether private or not provide a "public service" and "public service" is the responsibility of the State. The teachers (at least those who teach in "écoles sous contrat") are considered public servants.

Considering that approximately 18% of French children attend private schools and that over 44% of the junior and high schools (collèges et lycées) in France are private, they certainly fill a need.
Besides all private schools are not religious.

kerouac

The private schools in France are paid for by the government. The teachers are government employees. The curriculum of these schools must be exactly the same as in public schools, but in addition, religious instruction may be added. Lots of the Catholic schools, particularly in the south of France, have mostly Muslim students, so of course they don't have the religious classes. However, Catholic schools do not prevent students from wearing a veil, which is forbidden in public schools.

In a way, paying for it makes sense, because if the students were not in a private school, they would be in a public school, so what's the difference? Taxes would be paying for everybody anyway. But the climate of some of these places is frankly sinister. The Lubavitch schools have the worst reputation -- most non Jewish teachers flee them as quickly as possible. And they also find ways to refuse Muslim students, even though there is a demand, particularly in Paris, where spaces in private schools are sometimes rare.

In Brittany, more than 50% of the students go to private (Catholic) schools. In other parts of France, the percentage is often below 10%.

kerouac

Triple simulpost!

Pvoyageuse

Great minds think alike.. -)))

However I'd like to point out that most Catholic schools where I live have religious classes and students are requested to take them. They are not obliged to attend religious services of course.

Cathinjoetown

My village church has no redeeming architectural significance, but I would be sorry to see the steeple come down (the village is on a ridge and the steeple is visible from about 2-3 km away).

However, my village also has only 300 people on a good day. So, I would be conflicted if taxed to maintain the building. I would rather be taxed to support a boulangerie (just joking).

The church does not provide any services for the non Roman Catholics in the village. In truth, I have only known it to be open once for a mass in the past nine months as well as once for a wedding. Given its size, it must have thrived at one time but demographic changes and religious interest, or lack thereof, have left it virtually abandoned.

In my immediate area are two interesting examples of old church walls incorporated into modern church buildings. I think they look very interesting but am sure it's a matter of taste.

Michael

I believe that the funding of private schools was instituted by de Gaulle in the 1960s.

Palenque

Maybe some of those unusued churches could be converted to Mosques?