France and Switzerland by Rail
 

Interested in itinerary ideas for France and Switzerland, 10-12 day rail vacation, June 2008. Need to fly roundtrip to either Zurich or Paris (FF Miles).

Hi texasproud,

Can you tell us what you're interested in -- don't want to send you off to the vineyards if you're interested in the Alps.

Let us know if you want mountains, lakes, plains, or rolling hills; hiking, biking, walking, shopping, dining, or museum-going activities; towns, villages, or cities for your overnights; how many nights you want to stay at each destination; and if you've been to Europe before (and if so, what you liked about it).

s

My choice would be Swiss Alps --> Burgundy --> Paris or vice versa.

You should be able to fly open jaws into Zurich and out of Paris (or reverse). If not, the new high speed TGV line makes the trip in 4:30 nonstop between Paris & Zurich.

If you post more details about your interests, etc. myself and others may be able to provide more specific recommendations.

We are interested in local culture, mountains and lakes. Has anyone taken the "Glacier Express"? Also interested in cities for overnight and hotel recommendations.

Thanks for the infor on the train from Zurich to Paris. That helps!

There is a good description of the Glacier Express, and other scenic train routes in Switzerland, on th eRick Steves website. Here is a link to the page:

http://tinyurl.com/26x6nt

If you wish to do this, you can do a nice loop, from Zürich to St. Moritz to Zermatt (the Glacier Express route); then on to Lac Leman (Montreux area, but stay in Vevey), and then the Golden Pass route through Saanenland (Gstaad and environs); break the journey at Interlaken and take a train to Lauterbrunnen and up to Wengen for a short stay; from there continue to Luzern and back to Zurich.

You can also break the Glacier Express journey with an overnight stop at Fiesch or Bettmeralp to view the Aletschgletscher. Poke around on this website for photos of the area:

http://www.bettmeralp.ch/e/

Thanks enzian! Great info. Just what I was looking for.

I endorse Enzian's www.ricksteves.com as having good info on Swiss rail and passes (passes, esp Flexipasses are often the best deal here regardless of whether traveling or not) and also www.swisstravelsystem.com has a great look at scenic rail lines, boats, trains, passes, etc. and www.budgeteuropetravel.com to get their excellent free European Planning & Rail Guide that has a great chapter on Switzerland (and France also) with lots on scenic trains like the Bernina Express, to me the most scenic train in Switzerland if not all of Europe!

You are most welcome. Once you decide what towns you would like to stop in overnight (or longer), you can get hotel recommendations here too.

Do you want to do any hiking?

Thank you PalenQ and enzian. You both are extremely helpful.

We do like to hike (not mountain climb) if we can fit it in. We only have 10 days and are trying to see as much as possible.

What do you think? Burgundy or Provence from Paris then on to Switzerland.

Burgundy versus Provence? Hmmm.... You might want to start a new thread on that one so everyone will see the title. Apart from Paris, I don't know France at all---we spend all our Europe time in Switzerland and Italy. But if you do go to Proven;ce, you could enter Switzerland at Geneva, head for Zermatt and do "the loop" in reverse; or go from Geneva to Montreux and pick up the Golden Pass route to Gstaad and on to Interlaken, etc.

How many nights total will you have for Switzerland? There are some itineraries that would give you a half-day here and there for hiking. But I would highly recommend a 2-night stop somplace along the way.

Hi Texas! We were on the Golden Pass 2 years ago and on the Glacier Express last year. The latter is really slow and for the most part, really isn't that scenic. We took the train from Zurich to Guarda and enjoyed lots of small towns around the Engadine. Then, we stayed at Filisurs and took the Glacier Express to Sierre before heading over the Rhone to the Val D"Anniviers. (the valley next to Zermatt's) I loved the area- we hiked village to village and it was gorgeous. The Val D'Herens one valley over (south of Sion) is also supposed to be beautiful. After 3 trips to Switzerland and one to France, it's really hard to narrow down an itinerary, lol. However, I highly suggest at least 2 days in the Berner Oberland (we loved Wengen) I think you'd love 2 days in the Val D'Anniviers. You could hike as much as you want, then take the local buses the rest of the time. There are some beautiful towns there with quaint Inns and absolute authentic Swiss experience. St Luc, Grimentz, Vercorin
Here's a link to our trip report, be sure to look at the picture album:
http://www.epinions.com/content_238856932996
Two days in Paris is essential, but I wasn't crazy about Zurich or Geneva. Much prefer the small towns in Switzerland. I also love the Languedoc region of France. Try to do a mixture of regions....don't just hit the better known towns.Read a lot of trip reports, too! www.myswitzerland has some great info, too!

Hi enzian...We will probably fly in to Paris, 3 nights then on to Switzerland for 6 then our plan was to travel from Zurich back to Paris for 1 night. Need to fly roundtrip from either Paris or Zurich. Don't think Continental One Pass will allow us to fly in to Paris and out of Zurich on FF miles. Husband really wants to see Paris. I have been twice but he has never. Need to fit those 3 night in Paris into this itenerary somehow.

LLindaC...thank you so much...Love the ideas. Paris 3 nights, Switzerland 6 and and back to Paris from Zurich for last night before flying home. That's a rough idea of our timing. Absolutely have to fit Paris in though.
If we do Paris for 3 nights can we fit Normandy in? I hear that takes in day to visit with a tour.

Hi texasproud,

I've been enjoying this thread and the visions of beautiful Switzerland I get to see here.

I do, though, want to caution you against doing too much. As Enzian cautions you to stay at least two nights in one place, I'll go even farther and suggest you pick only ONE place in Switzerland to see. You'll see more. You'll get the chance to go beyond the main sights and get off into the countryside.

I'm afraid that if you spend your Swiss time flitting from one location to another, the strongest memory will be the flitting --

For the same reason, I strongly urge you not to take the Glacier Express. That's eight hours or more on a train -- when you can spend that eight hours outside actually ON the mountain. If you had all 12 days to spend in Switzerland, it might be a worthwhile thing, but with only 4-5 days, it's a waste of a whole day.

Bern (and its Bernese Oberland) is a good option from Paris with a TGV right to Bern. Zermatt is another good option with the TGV right to Geneva. But Engadin Valley is in the extreme eastern side of the country and is very far from Paris.

Good luck!

s

Also --

I flew on ff miles last year and did an open-jaw into Munich and out of Zurich. No problem at all. Try to get into Paris & out of Zurich; it'll save you some hassle on your last two days.

Then you could do 5 days in Paris, then 4-5 days in a Swiss mountain village, then a day in Zurich.

Good luck!

s

Thanks swandav2000. That's good advice..you recommend Bern or Zermatt...Zermatt is in the Moutains and Bern isn't...am I right? Which would be a better base for 5 days?

I meant to add...if we didn't have to go across the country like that, I would never have opted to take the Glacier Express. It was fun, but NOT something I'd recommend unless you have an entire day to blow. However, taking the Golden Pass into Montreux from the BO was really fun! Don't assume you can't fly open jaw...it's not that big of a deal really. Great idea to not have to back track.

Can anyone recommend a hotel in Bern?

LLindaC
Read your review on Epinions. Great! I get the impression you didn't have prior lodging reservations in these villages? If you did, any recommendations?

You can absolutely fly open jaws on FF miles as long as the flights you want are available. I've done it many times. In fact, in the past I have had specific dates on which I was able to travel so I called the FF desk and went though each and every available code share from NY to any Western European city on my days. I ended up on Singapore Airlines JFK - FRA and Swiss International ZUR - JFK, even though we spent the majority of the trip in France and Italy. Definitely find out for certain about whether or not you can book open jaws before booking a round trip in and out of the same city.

In Switzerland, I would suggest staying somewhere in the Jungfrau region (Murren, Wengen, Lauterbrunnen) rather than Zermatt. This region is more accessible and varied than Zermatt. From here it is pretty easy to do side trips to Berne (1:30), Lucerne (2:45) or Lausanne (2:50) - but you may not even want to leave because it could well be one of the most scenic places on Earth.

Hi ripit. Wengen soulds like a winner. I appreciate the advice from all. Now, lodging...any recommendation?

We were in Wengen the first year. Loved it. Texas, no we didn't have reservations. We made our reservations through the tourism office and everything was booked for us. They were 3 star Inns, very nice, not fancy, but very reasonable! I guarantee, you wouldn't be able to find places that cheap in Zermatt!

With 6 nights for Switzerland, you could also stay in two different places. Say, TGV to Geneva and stay along the lake (Vevey? ) 2 nights, see Chateau de Chillon, Montreux, the vineyards above whose name I forget (but Swandav knows!); then take the Golden Pass route from Montreux to Interlaken and on to Lauterbrunnen for 4 nights, with daytrips to Luzern, Bern, Wengen/Mürren, a boat trip on a lake, etc.

I don't think Swandav was recommending that you actually stay in Bern (a city), but that you take the TGV direct to Bern from Paris, then continue to the Berner Oberland (the mountains in the region) for your base. This area comprises two valleys, the Lauterbrunnen valley and the Lutschine (better known as Grindelwald). The two high villages perched above the Lauterbrunnen valley are car-free and very pleasant for a stay, but Lauterbrunnnen is more convenient for travel around the area.

LLindaC: Read you trip report on epinions - great! We've been to Switzerland twice but have yet to get to the Graubunden. Sounds like you found it very worthwhile.

How would you compare it to the Berner Oberland? Less crowded? Easy enough to get around the area by train/bus? Is scenery as spectacular? Anything at all that you would like to compare.

Oh, we loved the Graubunden! Yes, definitely less touristy. Of course, both times we were there in mid-June; a great time. Scenery- gorgeous...probably a little more varied than the BO...Of course, the architecture is quite different with the colorful sgraffiti houses and cobblestone streets in the villages. I didn't like St Moritz at all...but only a short train ride away it was entirely different. It was easy to travel by train and bus...we had passes and jumped on and off buses, trains and boats at will.

Hi all,

Right -- the TGV goes from Paris to Bern, then it's a hop on to the mountains of the Bernese Oberland. Like others above, I favor car-free and magical Wengen, and my favorite hotel there is the Alpenrose (www.alpenrose.ch). It's a 3-star that thinks it's a 4-star with incredible decor, more than incredible views, and impeccable service. The only thing it lacked was a little fridge in the room.

Have fun!

s

With all this great advice I am ready to begin planning our trip. I cannot thank y'all enough.

I do have one more kind of silly question, I guess...what about luggage. We will have backpacks, 1 carry on with wheels and one larger checked bag with wheels. Will that work on the trains? We've never done trains so I'm clueless.

There is ample room for lots of luggage but you may have to lift it over your head into overhead racks. At each end of car are racks for huge luggage but if leave there keep an eye on it at stops. Sounds like it will not be a problem for you a'tall.

Texas, I'll give you a good hint. Every time we travel, we take less. We've bought hiking style travel shirts and pants from Sierra Trading Co, Campmor Packinglight. I always wear the heaviest outfit and shoes on the plane....usually a jacket if I need it there, cause you can store it. Pack your stuff in Vacuum bags. Take a little detergent with you and rinse out some clothes every 3rd day. I took 3 pairs of slacks, one airplane outfit (knit R Lauren) one pair of nice flats, one pair of hiking shoes, one pair lightweight sandals. 4 hiking shirts, two dressier tops and jewelry to match those (one necklace, one pair earrings. I transferred makeup, shampoo, etc to mini containers. Then, I got a backpack which I could attach to the carryon. You really can do Europe this way and all Europeans travel this way. You'll be so much happier if you both have a light carryon! Trust me, with all the hikers and tourists there, people are very casual!

Sorry....those are 3 websites, there should be a comma between Campmor and Packinglight.com
Magellan and LLBean also have travel weight clothes. Sierra consistently has the best prices!
btw...we always travel in June. You will miss the throngs of European tourists and mostly will have Japanese and American tourists. Always check weather.com before you leave, but we've been lucky w/Swiss weather the last 2 years. Year before, it was 93 in Lugano!

Thanks...great info. Wish we were going sooner. I like to plan ahead though. We were in Italy LY and this year we are going to Sicily. June 2008 is out target for Paris then on to Switzerland.

Thanks again!!

LLindaC has given you, a novice traveler perhaps the most important advice - pack light - especially if going by train or public transportation where there are inevitably stairs to climb and distance to walk within stations as well as having to stow all in the luggage racks.

This however as LLC says takes a long time to learn - i like the advice i once read: Pack everything you think you need then leave 1/2 of it at home.

Every year i amaze, or rather ridicule myself for having taken things to Europe that i never got out of my pack and carried around for some weeks.

Another advice i read said take twice as few clothes and twice as much money - also sage advice in today's Europe.

As far as packing light - make sure the airlines you are going on allow you a carryon PLUS a back pack, or personal item (like a pocket book). We recently went to Budapest and were allowed only one - and I mean one - carryon. I had to put my pocketbook inside the carryon. When I got on the plane, I took it out.

Thanks for the advice!!