fourth trip to paris and still don't speak french!
 

hi. dh and i are going on our 4th trip to paris in may. it is our favorite city but since we don't speak french (dh very little but learning more every day on rosetta stone!), there are some things we avoid like going into small shops, buying wine on advice etc. last year i finally went into a small cheese shop looking for guidance and i asked ( in pretty bad french!) both of the shop workers if either of them spoke english and they each pointed to the other one! they did help me in broken english and everyone was happy.
my other source of confusion are all the blackboards in the restaurants. they often have wine on them, but there doesn't seem to be any organization to the list-red, white etc. not sure how to decipher and would love guidance, if there is any to be given.
so i guess my question is do i need to be concerned about this or are most small shop owners able to speak some english?
thanks in advance.

I'm not sure what the problem REALLY is here...you know those blackboards have wine on them but yet uyou cannot 'decipher' what's there...?

Help...

Dukey, yes. I am used to menus w/ reds from france, reds from italy etc. I have no idea if the listed wines are red, white etc. Is there some organization I don't know about? Many of the restaurants we go to have numerous blackboards up and I am not sure why or the difference. Does this help?

As far as the blackboard menus go...vin rouge is red wine and vin blanc is white. If it just gives the name of the wine, ie. Sancerre, I would just ask.

On our recent trip, we took the advice of my daughter's French teacher. At least attempt to converse in French and always say bonjour and avoir when you enter and leave a shop. The french consider it good manners (as it is) and are appreciative that you make an effort to speak their language. We found that almost all of the shop owners spoke some english.

I think most shop staff in areas frequented by tourists speak a little English -- admittedly, sometimes it is very little. But you should not see it is a problem. If you approach the situation properly (as you did in asking in your bad French if they spoke English) then you will almost always experience a co-operative approach. Smiles help!

Most service staff in restaurants and cafes can manage to deal with you in English. Again, it is a good strategy to ask first if they speak English.

To presume that you can deal with people in English is arrogant behaviour that can get up the nose of many people in France (or any other non-Anglophone country). I don't mean to imply that you do that, as it looks as if you want to do exactly the opposite. I'm just making a general remark.

no, I would not say most small shop owners in Paris speak English, why should they, at least not fluently. After all, this is your favorite city, but you don't want to learn French. Most people working in stores in the center of Paris know some English words, but they often are not fluent and asking for special guidance in buying cheeses sounds a little bit much as it could get complicated.

All the wine sections I've seen in restaurants seem pretty obvious and are indeed divided by type. I think they usually are divided by red versus white, and then they are listed by the brand and region, which if you know anything about French wine, is pretty clear (ie, what a Bordeaux or Cotes du Rhone is). I don't usually know the vineyard or family name, but don't care that much, I just choose a type of wine I like (Macon, Cote du Rhone, Bordeaux, Brouilly, etc.). If they just list a pitcher or glass of vin rouge or blanc (cheapest), I may ask them what kind it is.

Hi Plambers. I think that what you did in the cheese shop was great--now just enlarge that to your next trip. People here really appreciate it when you try to speak French. I have seen too many people scream at waiters in English and I get embarrassed for them (not that you do this, like Padraig said!). I wouldn't worry about having "bad" French, as long as there's some French!

Some basics it's helpful to know (at least by sight):
numbers (for lots of things!)
days of the week (store closures, etc)
colors
basic food groups

I would suggest learning the names of foods you would like to avoid, i.e. if chicken makes you gag, learn the word for chicken, etc...

Usually the wine lists are done by red, pink (rosé), and white.

We always open in french and have for the most part been treated wonderfully. Last year, we went to Louis Vins for lunch and it has left a bad taste in my mouth (no pun intended). We know the basic translations for beef, lamb, tuna etc. but were having a tough time w/ their menu and the wine blackboards. We very politely asked the waitress for help and she said she would be right back. She did not come back for another 20 minutes (it was not crowded) and when she returned, she acted as if we had not asked her anything and insisted that we order. We did and were not terribly happy w/ our meal or the wine. I know this is a very isolated incident but dont' want to repeat it. Have experienced the wine thing w/ blackboards alot. They just list a name (not as basic as the type eg: sancerre) so i have no idea what to order.

Hi plambers,

As stated, a "bonjour monsieur/madame" on the way in, and an "au revoir" on the way out of any shop is almost mandatory. This also applies to restaurants.

I find that they are very willing to help, and can be quite the experts in their product (ask a cheese shop person about one of their selections and be prepared for a story...). Some things, like picking your own fruit at a fruitstand are no-no's.

I would hazard to rhink that the level of english proficiency decreases as you leave the touristed/central districts. It's not a bad idea to learn a few basic food terms and their pronunciation (cafe, eau, carafe, vin, carte, menu, dessert,poulet, viande, poisson, a pointe, etc...). I've heard often that if you make an effort, it is appreciated and smooths the siwtching back and forth between the languages.

If you search for "menu translator" here, there is a thread on books for translations. I speak french, but some of the menu descriptions can be quite 'extravagant'.

My experience is that the wine carte in restaurants will split the selection into reds and whites. If I were to look at a listing on a blackboard I might make assumptions: Beaujolais/Bordeaux/Chinon/Touraine are red, Alsace/Sancerre white
If they list the grape, even easier (e.g. Chardonnay white, Cabernet red, Pinot Noir red, etc..). If it's just the winemaker's name...tougher

Hope this helps

Hi, I appreciate all the responses thus far. I am also fluent in Spanish but have not taken to French much. Last year we were in L'os a Moelle and the waitress was from Spain so we got along beautifully and had a wonderful meal and the best wine (recommended by her) of our trip. I know the basics like numbers, colors, foods etc and polite phrases. My husband does better than I. We are also foodies so have a tougher time w/ menus. I am sure if we ate more basic items or just ordered carafes of wine, we'd be good to go. I think the wines on the menus will be the way to go as opposed to ordering glasses per the blackboards.
I would never assume or want the French to be able to speak English fluently but I find we shy away from certain things,as I said above. I guess I will just be forced to drink alot of wine this trip!

Since your husband is learning French, one phrase that might be useful is something like: "We prefer a red/white wine. What would you recommend with our meal?" Not only do you learn which is white or red, you may get a very good recommendation of a wine you're not yet familiar with.

It sounds like you have been able to communicate in French, or in some French. Just keep trying! They are as embarrassed about not speaking a foreign language perfectly as you are, so if you try their language first, I think they're more comfortable trying your language.

I've decided that the biggest hurdle in speaking a foreign language is to be willing to try, and not be worried or upset if you sound like an idiot. Most of the time, you'll get your point across. I've crossed this hurdle in French and Italian (not worrying about sounding like an idiot), and there were times on recent trips when I walked away from a conversation, and LATER realized that I did something dumb like (true story) offer to give the car rental receipt to myself, instead of to the car rental guy. Of course, he knew what I was trying to communicate.

About the wine, in French, you can just point to (or say) the various wines listed on the board and say "rouge ou blanc?" (red or white). You can also learn the words for sweet (doux) and dry (sec) if you'd like a certain type of wine. This also works for ordering cheese. A couple of words will take you a long way!

People are appreciative of your efforts, so keep trying. In preparation for your trip, and knowing that you are ready to venture into those smaller stores, prepare some basic phrases or words that you think you will be likely to use. Like, "sweet" or "dry" (or "strong," for cheese), "more" or less." If you think you'll be clothes shopping, learn names of sizes and that sort of thing. I even make a cheat sheet, about the size of an index card, with some of these helpful phrases and words.

Here's another story involving blackboards. We were in Venice last fall, at a very busy locals-oriented place. I am quite good at "food Italian," and know most of the common, and less-common food words, dishes, and even local dishes. We (me and 3 others who didn't speak any Italian) were seated at the only table in the room where I couldn't see the blackboard, due to the angle of the table and the board. I tried for a while, then finally got up to stand straight in front of it. The next difficulty - I'm sure we've all encountered it - was that the scribbly handwriting was difficult to read. So as I peered at the blackboard, standing in the middle of the room, trying to read the handwriting, translating and explaining dishes for the whole group, the one over-worked waiter assumed we couldn't read the Italian, and started translating. I didn't have enough Italian to protest that "I could SO read the Italian!"

I don't speak French, but I certainly can order a pitcher, carafe, or glass of white wine (my preference) in the local language (I practice that single phrase extensively)!!

Hi P,

Re the wine board.

Try asking the waiter to tell you which are the reds and which the whites.

My guess is that they are arranged that way.

FYI
Bordeaux reds are Cabernet Sauvignon, Merlot and combinations of those with other varietals.

Bourgogne (Burgundy) reds are mainly Pinot Noir.

Bordeaux whites are mostly Sauvignon Blanc and Semillon.

Burgundy whites are Chardonnay.

((I))

I wouldn't worry. I only speak English, yet live in a non-English speaking country (granted one where literally everyone speaks English) and travel pretty routinely around Europe. I have never had a problem. I find being polite enough to guarantee the same in return. As for signs, I usually get by pretty well with context and the few words I can make out. Just relax.

As for buying wine on advice, I am a little unclear what you mean by this. Are you talking in a shop or in a restaurant? In a shop, I would agree that you could face some problems.

If in a restaurant, I would be surprised if any qualified sommelier didn't speak enough English to help. And if they aren't a sommelier, aren't you taking a pretty big leap of faith that the person you ask really has a clue? I would think you are better off familiarizing yourself with the various regions, determining what you might like, and finding a vintage chart and stuffing it in your pocket. You are better off knowing that you are intrigued by Cotes du Rhones, for instance, but that 2002's should pretty much be universally avoided. This just seems a better bet than counting on a waiter that has not really shown you any evidence that they know the first thing about wine.

Hi Plambers, I have the opposite problem, I have been learning to speak french for years, yet nearly every conversation I begin in french, has them speaking English.

If you are interested in wine, I might start with Willis Wine Bar, I think nearly every person there speaks English and that could be your start to some wine knowledge, not to mention the food is pretty good too. http://www.williswinebar.com/

Another memorable place where they speak english is Ze Kitchen
http://www.zekitchengalerie.fr/

I think both places will spend time with you explaining and you'll get some great food in the process.

happyto...my neice had the same experience as you when she was interning in Paris. She speaks french quite well and has a boyfriend from Belgium.

She thought because she is very blond, has blue eyes and "looks American," that the french thought she would be more comfortable speaking english.

nolefan1: Don't discount the possiblity that (at least some of the time) switching to English is a bit of a power play. I remember being in a restaurant with an ex, who was very fluent in French. The meal was just awful and so she complained. While trying to dismiss her complaints, the waiter went out of his way to ask her if she would be more comfortable speaking English. It was probably the rudest and most unprofessional thing I have ever seen from a waiter.

That happens to me sometimes in Paris, also, but no other countries and not usually in other parts of France -- they switch to English or ask me if I would be more comfortable in English -- even when I speak French better than they speak English. I do have blonde hair, also, but I don't think that has anything to do with it, or that means you look American (clothes maybe could indicate that, not hair and eyes so much). I look German, actually, as both my parent's sides were and they think I'm German over there in that part of Europe. I know I'm not fluent, and I do have an accent they can't always place, but often when they do that, I am expressing myself perfectly fine and they understand me.

I do think it often is a way to put you down, sort of, which is kind of a power ploy. They want to make sure you understand you aren't really on the same level as a real French person. I might add that waiters/shopkeepers, etc don't do this to me in other French-speaking countries (like some Caribbean countries, or Switzerland, or even in Quebec province in Canada), only in Paris, so I don't think it's that I am speaking so poorly they can't understand me.

However, I don't think that is the most unprofessional thing a waiter has ever done, I've seen a lot worse, that's for sure.

my computer cut off the far right of your title, having it read:

"fourth trip to paris and still don't french!"

I could french even BEFORE I went to Paris!!!