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First trip to Italy - whaddaya say? Varenna >> Brisighella >> Chiavari >> Alba

First trip to Italy - whaddaya say? Varenna >> Brisighella >> Chiavari >> Alba

Old Mar 3rd, 2022, 04:11 AM
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First trip to Italy - whaddaya say? Varenna >> Brisighella >> Chiavari >> Alba

Hi all - thanks in advance for any thoughts!

I have been scouring the web for the past month+ developing plans for a 16 day trip to Italy with my wife 4/13/22 to 4/29/22. Needless to say, we are very excited! She has been once before 10 years ago and visited Cinque Terre (her favorite from that trip), Florence (also enjoyed), Venice (did not care for), and Rome (did not care for). I have never been.

A bit about us...
- early 30's
- love beautiful scenery (especially mountains)
- like smaller, slower-paced areas
- don't care for "check-the-box" attractions
- not huge on art / history, though we can and will appreciate some
- love food and cooking (I especially love a good local market)

Thanks to the help of Fodor's and other travel forums, we have landed on the following itinerary. We will not have a car and do realize these destinations will require train/bus connections to get between.
- Land in MXP 4/14 morning
- Train/bus to Varenna, stay 4/14-4/18
- Train/bus to Brisighella, stay 4/18-4/21. Maybe see Parma or Bologna on the way or as a day trip
- Train/bus to Chiavari, stay 4/21-4/25. Maybe see Florence on the way, and maybe Camogli or others nearby as day trips
- Train/bus to Alba, stay 4/25-4/28. Maybe see Turin on the way or as a day trip
- Train/bus to near MXP TBD, stay 4/28 for flight out midday 4/29

Given our interests, that we are flying in/out of MXP, and that we won't have a car, whaddaya say?! Anywhere that you have been and would advise against? Anywhere that you would recommend substituting instead?

Our final cuts were:
- Umbria (Orvieto) / Tuscany (Montepulciano) - a bit further off our track, and we will see a different wine region with arguably a better food scene in Alba (home of the slow food movement?). Brisighella also offers countryside charm
- Val Gardena (Ortisei) - given the timing of our trip, it seems we wouldn't be able to fully appreciate/access the area/views/hikes
- Trento - it felt like this was a forced replacement to Ortisei / Val Gardena, when Val Gardena was really what we wanted
- Asti / Acqua Termi - chose Alba as it seemed more our style and closer to the other Langhe towns of interest
- Camogli / Sestri Levante / Portovenere - chose Chiavari as it seemed to have more to it than just a coastal destination - daily market, pretty/historic town, less touristed, etc.
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Old Mar 3rd, 2022, 06:56 AM
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You have made some interesting choices of locations to visit. I would have kept Camogli by the way.
As far as Alba, it is short drives away from many of the wine towns including Bra, headquarters of the Slow Food movement. We were happy that we stayed near Alba( just up the hill.)
We really enjoyed the Piemonte region, fewer tourists than Tuscany.
Each to their own but we love staying in Rome and Venice. Cinque Terre was better years ago before being mobbed by tourists.

Last edited by HappyTrvlr; Mar 3rd, 2022 at 07:00 AM.
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Old Mar 3rd, 2022, 04:59 PM
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Thanks for the reply HappyTrvlr! Hopefully by interesting you mean good!

For your Camogli comment, have you visited much of the Ligurian coast, including Camogli and Chiavari? I won't argue that Camogli looks more picturesque, but Chiavari just seemed to have more depth to it.

Yes, we initially planned to do Tuscany then happened upon Piemonte and pivoted that way, with Alba seeming like the best hub given our lack of a car. Glad to hear another positive firsthand account!

Definitely understand that Rome and Venice are beloved destinations, but given my wife has been and didn't care for either and our general preference for more off the beaten path, lower key places, we decided to avoid basically any major city for our four hubs to stay in.
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Old Mar 3rd, 2022, 09:10 PM
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I'm glad you really thought through what the two of you will enjoy and want to do. While I love the "big three," I'm also a huge art and ancient history buff, so I have visited them because they have what I like, not because I wanted to check off a box.

I think you'll find that Varenna is somewhat touristy, though not badly so. There will be more Italian and European visitors, less from the U.S. The plus to a more touristed town is that it will be easier for you to get from place to place; in Varenna, of course, you can travel by boat.

Brisighella is tiny, though I believe we visited the town while spending a week in Le Marche about 10 years ago. Really consider what you will do there, and how you will get from place to place if you plan to visit other towns. (We stayed in Urbino, lovely lovely non-touristy very small city) and at an agriturismo outside of Macerata.) If you want to do something fun and different, consider a day trip to San Marino, if you can get there. Google it!

Alba is bigger and gets more tourists, due to the wine and truffles (though it won't be truffle season while you're there). I've got to say, of all the regions of Italy we've visited (many of them), the food in the Piemonte was delicious and decadent (Emilia Romagna runs a close second). It sounds like you enjoy wine. Are you thinking of taking a wine tour of the area? if not, I think that getting from town to town by bus might be a bit of a hassle. You probably also could hire a driver for a day. We arranged some visits to very small wineries, which was fun and interesting, and spent the days driving slowly from village to village.

We've been to the Cinque Terre a number of times; there's hiking all around the area so I don't think you can go wrong with whatever village you choose (if you're planning on hiking).

One factor to keep in mind when planning a trip that's more in the countryside and small towns is what you will do if it's rainy, especially if it's rainy days in a row.

For your thoughts of visiting Parma (very enjoyable small city, I think you'll love wandering around, and not touristy), Bologna (even more enjoyable, the food is fabulous, got a great cafe and student vibe), Florence (I love it for the art, but I find it to be an austere place and packed with tourists on buses), where will you put your luggage/backpacks/whatever if you visit en route to somewhere else? I suggest day trips to these places, especially Parma and Bologna. In fact, really, I would suggest that you consider staying in one of those towns. More to see and do in those towns without feeling too big or too touristy, and a bigger selection of restaurants and cafes.

Enjoy your planning and your trip!
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Old Mar 4th, 2022, 07:22 PM
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I need to clarify that we had a car the whole time which made visiting the wine villages very easy.
Are you interested in visiting wineries?
There is a boutique winery a short distance from Alba in Madonna di Como called Pietro Rinaldi.
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Old Mar 6th, 2022, 02:31 PM
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Lexma90:
Yes, I'm expecting Varenna to be the most touristed of our stops, especially since we will be there Easter weekend. My wife was keen to visit Lake Como, as was a friend that is meeting us there. It certainly does look beautiful, so I'm looking forward to it as well.
Brisighella seems relatively easy to get to with public transport - just about an hour to get to Bologna. That is a good point about luggage if stopping in transit. We'll certainly have to consider that. Maybe we consider Parma more too...we'll see.
Both Urbino and San Marino look incredible and were part of our earlier considerations, but without a car, they were/are impractical.
Very excited for the food in Alba! I'm bummed we will likely miss the Saturday market (as well as the fall/truffle season), but I may try to scoot over to Asti for their market on Wednesday or it seems like Alba has smaller ones during the week.

Lexma90 + HappyTrvlr:
We are not huge wine drinkers, but we will most definitely look to visit a few. When in [Alba], as they say! We'll either do a tour/hire a driver or we've seen that people rent e-bikes to ride out to closer wineries. I'll take a look at Pietro Rinaldi as well as any other recommendations for both wine and food near Alba.

Thanks!
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Old Mar 7th, 2022, 03:57 AM
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We visited Brisighella as a day trip from Bologna, by train. It took way more than an hour. The actual travel time may be an hour but with connections it's much more. Trains to Brisighella were much less frequent than to some other places. It was a charming town but you can walk across it in 10 minutes. Another hour (or two if you are slow) to climb up to the castle. Not sure I would pick it as a base to spend four days in, even if I were in search of an 'off the beaten path' kind of place. I agree with above comment about think about what you will do if you get rainy weather (likely in April). Also the castle was not open yet for the season and we were there end of June. In April I would think even the few shops and restaurants might still be closed.

You seem to be very against visiting any place that is 'touristy'. Places are touristy for a reason. While I would certainly avoid really busy places if that's not what you are looking for, you will be missing out on a lot by only going to very off the beaten path places. Also, because your wife, when she was in her early twenties, didn't like Rome or Venice doesn't mean she won't like them now. I really disliked Rome on my first trip to Italy but gave it a second chance and fell in love with it, have been back many times. You also don't need to go to only the main 'sights' if you do visit places like Rome, Florence, Venice, etc. There is much besides museums and monuments in those places. And there are a ton of small cities/towns that are much smaller and less well known than the biggies but still have more to see and experience than some of the places you are planning on.
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Old Mar 7th, 2022, 05:39 AM
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isabel: hmmmm, you are most definitely giving us more to think about. I appreciate you being straightforward and definitely do understand that touristy places are touristy for a reason. We just don't enjoy really busy or really crowded, hence our approach in planning this trip. We live in a mountain town of roughly 20K after both having lived in bigger, busier cities, and prefer the lifestyle it provides, given yes when weather is bad, there isn't a ton to do. We definitely do want to make the most of this vacation though and appreciate the perspectives of those that have traveled Italy.

Is it mainly Brisighella in our current itinerary that you would hesitate on as a base? Or others as well (Varenna, Chiavari, Alba)? You mentioned a ton of small cities/towns that would have more to offer than some of our selections... any in particular (given we don't intend to rent a car)? Brisighella of our four certainly seems like the most low key, but we generally did try to select smaller spots that still have their own action as well as surrounding points of interest. Brisighella is currently a three night stay, btw.

Last edited by rassie; Mar 7th, 2022 at 05:42 AM.
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Old Mar 7th, 2022, 01:26 PM
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When we were in Bellagio a few years ago, there were many more English speaking tourists (mostly British) than any other nationalities. Maybe Brexit has reduced the number of British visitors. A waitress in a restaurant actually asked us if we could please speak English! She didn't speak Italian.

We saw no Italian tourists (other than ourselves) when we were there. The owner of our hotel said that there would be more Italians in August. (This was late May.) All of the shops were geared to tourists. We saw hardly any Italian residents in Bellagio either; there were more in Varenna.

There are lots of hills in both towns, and walking was up and down the hills was tedious on hot days. Restaurants closed much earlier than they do in the rest of Italy, and taxis and buses stopped running after the restaurants closed. I would try to find a hotel near the centre of town, or near restaurants.

Last edited by bvlenci; Mar 7th, 2022 at 01:28 PM.
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Old Mar 7th, 2022, 01:46 PM
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Brisighella is tiny, though I believe we visited the town while spending a week in Le Marche about 10 years ago. Really consider what you will do there, and how you will get from place to place if you plan to visit other towns. (We stayed in Urbino, lovely lovely non-touristy very small city) and at an agriturismo outside of Macerata.) If you want to do something fun and different, consider a day trip to San Marino, if you can get there. Google it!
Speaking of Urbino, which is very near where I live, my daughter today sent me this interesting CNN travel piece about Urbino:

https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/u...aly/index.html

It's pretty accurate, but I wouldn't say Florence is northwest of Urbino; it's pretty much due west.

Also, when it mentioned the "studiolo" in the Ducal Palace museum, I would have added that the twin of this studiolo, from another of the duke's palaces (in Gubbio) is in the Metropolitan Museum in New York. The studiolo is a masterpiece of intarsia work.
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Old Mar 8th, 2022, 03:29 AM
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Some of the towns that I love that are smaller/less touristy than the 'biggies' include Modena, Ferrera, Mantua - those are in the general region of Emilia Romagne, which you might consider instead of Brisighella. All on train lines. But I wouldn't rule out Bologna itself, which is of course a large busy city, but less so than Florence or Rome, and as a base has great train connections. And there are plenty of quiet areas in Bologna. Photos of those towns are here: https://andiamo.zenfolio.com/f600116703

I think Varenna is a great choice for Lake Como, much quieter than Bellagio. But maybe also consider the northern part of Lake Garda. I loved Malcesine. Trains stop at Desenzano and then there are boats all up the lake. I think Lake Garda is just as nice as Como and less touristy - at least less English speaking tourists (there were lots of Germans). Photos of both Lakes Garda and Como (also Maggiore and Iseo) are here: https://andiamo.zenfolio.com/f405234590

For Liguria I have stayed in both Rapallo and Camogli and absolutely love Rapallo. (Also liked Camogli). Here are my photos of that area: https://andiamo.zenfolio.com/p946045812

I have not been to Alba. I stayed in Turin itself in that area, but that's a large city. Also stayed in Aosta which was very quiet, but further up in the mountains than Alba. We had a car for that stay. For every place else I mentioned I visited without a car. Trains in Italy are wonderful and go most places. But, funny story, the first time I planned to visit Brisighella was on a trip when I did have a car. We got lost and ended up skipping it. Then on another trip we were staying in Bologna and did visit it via train. On the way to Brisighella from Bologna we had to change trains in Faenza and stopped for a couple hours to explore it. Very 'untouristy'.

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Old Mar 9th, 2022, 02:24 AM
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I agree with Isabel about Lago di Garda. It's a beautiful lake, especially in the northern section, in the foothills of the Alps. Malcesine is a very nice town, where you can also take a cable car to the top of Monte Baldo. It's pretty touristy in the summer. A nearby town that's a bit less touristy is Limone sul Garda. The lake is long and narrow, so getting from one end to the other by boat, or even by bus, is very slow. There are also some nice towns on the southern end of the lake, and this end is well served by trains. Both Desenzano del Garda and Peschiera Del Garda are a short distance from Verona by frequent trains, and both towns have a few direct trains to Venice, stopping also at Vincenza and Padova. The castle town of Sirmione is near Desenzano, and Gardaland, and Gardaland, a very nice amusement park, is near Peschiera.

Bologna is one of the best transportation hubs in Italy, something to keep in mind if you won't have a car. I love Bologna, but not everyone does. My husband says it's one of the few larger cities where he would consider living.

Here are a few attractive smaller cities and towns with decent transportation:
  • Buonconvento is on a train line between Siena and Florence, and has bus connections to several Tuscan hill towns, such as Montepulciano.
  • Lucca is a short distance by train from Florence, and by train from there to Rome.
  • Fabriano, a very non-touristy town with a medieval center, is on a direct train line to Rome, and is connected by bus to several very pretty towns in Le Marche, such as Pioracco. It's also a short train ride to the Grotte di Frassasi, a very beautiful cavern, one of the largest in Europe.
  • Spoleto has a nice medieval center, on the same direct train line to Rome, and has bus connections to other smaller towns in Umbria. The train ride from Rome to these last two cities is slow, but scenic.

The Castelli Romani, a region of castles, hills, and lakes, is connected by train and bus to Rome. There are several possible towns there, but I don't know them well. Castel Gandolfo is one possibility.

Lake Bracciano can be reached by train and bus from Rome. The town of Bracciano has a beautiful castle overlooking the lake, but the town itself is nothing special. There are nicer towns on the lake, such as Anguillara, also reachable by train and bus.

Last edited by bvlenci; Mar 9th, 2022 at 02:27 AM.
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Old Mar 9th, 2022, 11:01 AM
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Thank you isabel and bvlenci!

We did consider Como, Garda, Maggiore, and Orta before settling on Varenna on Como. It came down to Malcesine on Garda like you have both recommended and Varenna. I mentioned we have a friend meeting us for that stop - they are flying in from England and meeting us there, so Varenna was much more convenient to MXP for them to get to for the long weekend. We may consider staying in Stresa for our last night before flying home. TBD.

isabel: Your pictures are beautiful. I have perused the majority of your galleries as well as your trip report ("Trip report: 5 weeks in Italy, Croatia, France - Summer 2019"). It seems you have been drawn to destinations and approach traveling similarly to us. Many of the spots that we considered, you have visited! After my harmless stalking ...

You mentioned Ferrara, Modena, and Mantua as particular favorites. Is that specific to Emilia Romagna?
I'm curious if you have a top 3-5 of Italy of all of your travels, which we might consider instead of Brisighella. Varenna especially and Alba are near locks, but I think we could be persuaded to pivot on definitely Brisighella and maybe Chiavari. We are generally open to any region, given we are there in late April and probably not going further south than Rome. Reminder that our top priorities are beautiful scenery, quaintness/charm, great food, and accessibility by public transport. Not to limit to these, but places that I saw you visited that we have considered at one point or another include:
- Amalfi (particularly Cetara)
- Emilia Romagna (Bologna, Brisighella, Ferrara, Modena, Parma, Ravenna)
- Val di Gardena
- Bolzano
- Trento
- Bassano del Grappa
- Tuscany (Arezzo, Lucca, Montepulciano, Pienza, Siena)
- Aosta Valley
- Umbria (Assisi, Orvieto, Perugia, Spello)
- Liguria (Camogli, Portovenere, Rapallo, SML)

Thanks again for your insight!
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Old Mar 10th, 2022, 05:35 AM
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For the Amalfi coast I have always stayed in Sorrento (3 different trips, two in July, one in March). I love Sorrento itself, the size of it, and the transportation connects. I have taken both the bus and the boat down to Positano and Amalfi. Some people don't like Sorrento as it is not quite as quaint as Positano or Amalfi but it's no more touristy, in fact I think less so as it's a bit larger so you can stay in a quieter part of it. Also technically it is on the other side of the peninsula from the "Amalfi Coast" so some people don't like that. Great views from the town though. April might be a wonderful time for that area. Not as busy as summer but by late April everything might be open (a lot of restaurants, shops, etc. were still closed for the season in late March). Not sure when the ferries start though.

For Emilia Romagna, a lot of people choose Parma, mostly for the food tours. I thought the town itself was less interesting than Ferrara or Modena or Bologna. Ravenna has incredible mosaics in the church but the town itself didn't do much for me and it was an easy day trip (by train) from Bologna.

In the Dolomites we based in Bolzano and loved it. Larger than the Val di Gardena villages but I liked that. We did have a car to explore though. We visited Trento by train from Bolzano but I think doing the rest of the area without a car might be challenging. Though there are people on this board who have done that.

I though Bassano del Grappa was a neat little town. We had a car and only spent one night but I could see spending a few days there.

One of my favorite places in Italy is Siena, though that is definitely larger and busier than the small hill towns. However, it certainly is a 'hill' town and there are some great views out into the countryside plus it has both train and bus connections to other places. And the city itself is just beautiful with lots of little streets and hills and neighborhoods to explore, not to mention towers to climb.

We had a car for the Aosta Valley and I really don't think that area lends itself to public transportation.

Orvieto is another of my absolute favorite places in Italy. I also like Assisi (most 'touristy' of the ones you list), and Spello and Perugia is also great, though it is also a bit larger.

And Rapallo is another of my absolute favorite places and probably the least 'touristy' of the towns in that area that you list.

Picking 3-5 favorite places in Italy is hard. I used to think I wanted to look into buying a place in Italy to live there at least part time. But I've since decided I love so many different places it would be hard for me to stay in just one place. In future trips I'd planned longer visits - at least a week or two per place and the one's I'd probably choose are Siena, Orvieto, Rapallo and Sorrento.

I have tons of trip reports if you click on my name and scroll down. Some are pretty old but the basic impressions don't change.
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Old Mar 12th, 2022, 03:00 AM
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Orvieto is another of my absolute favorite places in Italy. I also like Assisi (most 'touristy' of the ones you list), and Spello and Perugia is also great, though it is also a bit larger.
I agree, once again, with Isabel, and will add that Perugia, Spello, and Assisi are connected by train and bus. The trains stop in the valley below Assisi and Spello, and you have to take a bus, which waits at the station, up to the town.

In fact, Perugia is another excellent transportation hub. The train that connects these three towns goes all the way from Rome to Florence, with a number of other interesting stops along the way: Trevi, Terni, Narni, Spoleto (another of my favourite towns), (Spello, Assisi, Perugia), Lake Trasimeno (2 stops), and Arezzo (an attractive and interesting Tuscan city.

This is a slow "regional" train (even though it passes through three regions), on a scenic route through the Apennines. Between Rome and Spoleto, it's the same line I mentioned above, that continues through Le Marche to Fabriano and the Adriatic coast.

There are also direct bus connections from Perugia to Gubbio and Todi, two other iconic Umbrian towns. You could even connect by bus/train to Orvieto, although that takes about three hours, a rather tedious trip.

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Old Mar 13th, 2022, 12:02 PM
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Thank you both for your continued thoughts! After a couple of busy days of work, we have circled back to putting more thought to this.

I looked some more into Rapallo, Sestri Levante, and Portovenere, and I am still feeling confident in sticking with Chiavari. The wife never waivered, though I am certainly the over-analyzer. We also remain confident with Varenna and Alba.

So, it continues to be a deliberation of Brisighella vs. an alternative. The first cut involved logistics - what does it look like to get from Varenna to X then from X to Chiavari. This led to eliminating:
  • Orvieto
  • Assisi
  • Spello
  • Perugia
  • Spoleto
  • Buonconvento
  • Montepulciano
Next was taking a look at pictures, which eliminated:
  • Padua (recommended on a Rick Steves thread titled "Favorite atmospheric town/small city in Italy")
  • Mantua
  • Ferrara
So we are currently left with the following:
  • Lucca - beautiful and frequently mentioned on the web, but mixed reviews of people either loving it or being completely underwhelmed
  • Siena - beautiful and frequently mentioned on the web, but potentially too busy and touristy
  • Arezzo - lower-key Tuscany, but maybe settling for unexceptional yet convenient
  • Modena - FOOD (especially the Albinelli Market), but looks a bit drab / not much for natural scenery though seemingly better than Parma
  • Parma - FOOD, but looks a bit drab / not much for natural scenery
  • Brisighella - looks the most like somewhere we'd want to visit, but the most involved to get to and smallest with least going on
Ahhhhh which to pick?!?!?! We don't intend to use it as just a place to day trips from, so it is a matter of which one will be most enjoyable to spend three nights getting to know.

We will continue to assess, but additional insight is always welcome! One month until our departure date!

Last edited by rassie; Mar 13th, 2022 at 12:08 PM.
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Old Mar 28th, 2022, 05:40 AM
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Just dropping in with an update on our final itinerary. If anyone has recommendations in or near our destinations, please do share! Restaurants, bakeries, gelaterias, wineries/breweries, food markets, walks/hikes, sights, tours, cooking classes, etc. Reminder that we will not have a car. Thanks!
  • 4 nights Varenna
  • 4 nights Alba
  • 4 nights Chiavari
  • 3 nights Parma
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