isibaker

Hi all, I posted a couple of weeks ago with an itinerary idea for my first trip to Europe. Since then, my time and budget have changed a bit, so I am expanding the trip to 8 weeks. The trip will be in May and June of next year. I really love the concept of slow travel, but I guess since I've never travelled in Europe before, it's hard to know if I'm taking it too fast or too slow, so I'd love some advice. A little about me: I'm a female who will be traveling solo, I'll be 20 at the time of this trip, I love culture, food, museums, history, and experiencing different lifestyles. Here's my work-in-progress itinerary:

Fly to Reykjavik (Icelandair stopover) - 2 nights
Stockholm - 5 nights
Athens - 3 nights
Naxos - 4 nights
Santorini - 3 nights
Rome - 6 nights
Venice - 4 nights
Bellagio - 2 nights
Lucerne - 2 nights
Grindelwald - 4 nights
Strasbourg - 2 nights
Paris - 6 nights
Loire Valley - 3 nights
London - 6 nights
Cotswolds - 3 nights
Bath - 2 nights
Fly home

Thoughts? This trip would contain 7 countries in 8 weeks, and I feel like that's a little fast, but I'm not sure. There are 4 countries with over 10 days each: Greece, Italy, France, and England. I'm also somehow managed to pick some of the most expensive countries in Europe, so budgeting will be a bit hard, but I'll plan it out well. Thanks in advance for any advice!

janisj

>> I really love the concept of slow travel, <<

Well -- its isn't 'slow' . . . but not actually bad at all.

My first question (only time for a quick comment right now but will come back late tonight) The Cotswolds bit - how do you plan to get around? If you need to use public transport there night be an easier region to visit.

Dayle

Isi,

I didnt see your first post, but your plan as it stands now at least makes good logistical sense. I assume you are flying between Iceland and Stockholm and Athens, then training plus ferries for the rest.

I have only been to Italy (multiple trips) and France so can only really comment on those destinations. I think the time you plan for Rome, Venice, Paris and the Loire Valley is good for a first sample type of trip.

One suggestion would be to perhaps put Stockholm last or as close to last as makes sense for your return flight home. Might give you better weather.

Question: do you really need 5 days in Stockholm? Do you have a full list of things to do and see there?

I might also cut back by a couple days the time in Switzerland. Very expensive country.......maybe you dont need 4 whole days in Grindlewald unless you plan to do a lot of hiking. I understand its a very small town, but with good day trips near so it depends again on what you have planned.

I think the key to finalizing your itinerary is to check travel times between your destinations and make sure you have enough time to do what you want once there. You also need to consider cost to get to each destination. Travel time, plus cost = is it worth it?

The more you move around the more it costs, so make sure you get what you want for your budget.

Hope that helps!

Dayle

One other important suggestion. For a trip this long and with this much moving, you will get tired even at 20. Make sure you have two or three days built in to just relax. Sleep in, do laundry. A vacation from your vacation. No pressing tours scheduled, or trains to make.....

PalenQ

I think it's perhaps too leisurely in some places for a typical 20-yr-old - 6 nights in anyplace could be - but nice if you want to use big cities as a base and do day trips to smaller let's say more typical towns in that country- I would perhaps drop places like - a place with mainly older folk and say to to Milan or Genoa instead or Bologna - cities that again have lots of exciting things for younger folk.

I would add more time to the U K - go up to Scotland- Edinburgh is a young person's Nirvana - some neat hostels there.

In any case with that much trains a Global Eurail Youthpass is a no-brainer IMO- for lots of good info on trains check www.ricksteves.com; www.budgeteuropetravel.com and www.seat61.com.

You can use overnight trains between some of your places - saving time and money on an accommodation.

traveller1959

Interestingly, you have mostly cities in your itinerary, hardly any countryside. So, after your trip, your impression of Europe will be somewhat one-sided.

Also, your itinerary needs some fine-tuning.

I find 5 nights for Stockholm too much. Better cut one or two nights and add them elsewhere.

Maybe for Athens. For Athens, one or two days will be enough, BUT it is a daytrip from Athens to see the most impressive and mythical archelogical site, Delphi, and also a wonderful Byzantine monastery, Hosios Loukas, on the way. Also, I strongly recommend at least a daytrip to the Peloponnese, which is full of excellent archeology, medieval cities, monasteries, charming fishing villages and some of the world's most beautiful beaches. Instead, I would skip Naxos.

Six nights in Rome may be also one too much. Instead, you may add two or three nights for Tuscany, with beautiful cities like Florence, Siena, Pisa and pretty scenery. Also, because Tuscany is right on the way between Rome and Venice.

Bellagio is a kind of tourist trap and travelwise not very smart. If it must be Lake Como stay in Como or on the western shore (e.g. Tremezzo) and take the boat to Bellagio.

I agree that four nights in Grindelwald is a bit too much while two nights in Strasbourg is not enough. Add one or two nights for touring beautiful Alsace and its picturesque wine villages.

Six nights in Paris is okay, but you may cut one night in favour of another destination.

The same applies for London. On the way to the Cotswolds, stop in Oxford which is quintessentially British. Or do a daytrip to Oxford from London.

PalenQ

Hostels are great for meeting other travelers your age -hotels can be isolating.

Grindelwald and all those places have hostels - and there are youth hotels - a cross between a hostel and a hotel - pubs on premises so a convivial atmosphere.

Again get Let's Go Europe for great run downs on hostels everywhere.

isibaker

Thank you everyone for the responses. I've been thinking about things a lot the past few days, and have come up with quite a few different itinerary ideas. My Mom will actually be joining me for the last 3 weeks of the trip, and I believe we'll be doing Paris, England, and Sweden together (we're full-blooded Swedes, so traveling there is very important to us).

I've decided to cut out Switzerland; I want to go there sometime instead with my dad since we're both huge hiking/mountain fanatics.

I want to start instead in Greece, flying into Athens, visiting the Peloponnese, and then heading out to two of the islands - I'm currently trying to decide between the Cyclades (Santorini and Naxos) and the Sporades (Skiathos and Skopelos). Since it's my first stop, I'll probably be there in the last week of April - will it be too cold/rainy then? I was thinking of cutting Greece out entirely, but I'm so interested in the culture and history there... I guess I'm just worried that everything will be shut down at that time of year. Is this so?

@PalenQ I would love to spend time in Scotland. It was previously at the top of my list for countries to visit, but I'm afraid that I won't be able to see much there without a car. Any suggestions? I haven't researched Scotland too much, so I don't know where I'd like to go, but I'd have to travel by rail. And I'd love to do some hikes up there, but as a solo female, would this be safe?

@traveller1959 You have some really good points about the time in cities vs countryside. I guess I'm just not sure how much time I need in each city to see the things I want to see... since at this point I haven't researched specifics too much. I love the countryside, so I guess I just need to research more about smaller towns that I'd like to visit.

I was thinking of adding the French Riviera and Provence instead of Switzerland. I'd be there in early June, so hopefully before much of the crowds. Thoughts?

Also, hostels are not really my thing - not into the whole lack-of-privacy and partying scene. I'd be up for staying in a private room in a nice hostel, but I'd rather stay at a B&B for cheap accommodation. Any advice for finding cheap, nice places to stay that aren't hostels?

traveller1959

Re: Greek islands.

I never understood why people are so crazy about islands. Any island is limited, while Peloponnese is practically an island too and has anything that any island offers plus a huge number of attractions of any kind.

The only Greek island that is special is Santorini, because of its volcanic orign and its shape. But it is hugely touristy, however not too bad this time of year.

Honestly, I would go only to Santorini and spend more time on Peloponnese. Ancient Messene, Olympia, Epidaurus, Mycenae are among the best archeological sites in Greece, there are breathtaking beaches (Voidokilia near Pylos!), monasteries etc.

Côte d'Azur and Provence are my favourite destinations in Europe. There is a wealth to see - Roman archeology, modern art, medieval towns and villages, scenery...

June is a beautiful time of year to go there. The sea is warm enough for swimming (albeit a little cooler than in Greece), everything is in bloom, bright sunshine...

Envierges

How's this for ruining your carefully thought out plans? I agree with the above post about the Greek Islands. In my opinion, the best Greek ruins are in Sicily. Spring in Sicily is gorgeous. Works too with your Rome and Provence and onto Paris, London and Stockholm with your mom.

isibaker

Wow, you guys have given me lots to think about

@traveller1959 The more I think about it, the more I agree with your points about the islands. I think I'd rather go to the Greek islands when I have lots of time to really island-hop instead of rushing a couple of islands into a week's time (which is also more expensive). I'll definitely have to research more about the Peloponnese! The island of Hydra looks really interesting... How many days would you suggest for Athens and the Peloponnese? Your talk of the south of France is making me want to expand my time there. Would 2 weeks for Cote d'Azur and Provence sound right to you, or would you stay longer?

@Envierges I was actually thinking about replacing Greece with Sicily, the Amalfi coast, and Naples since it probably does work better with my other itinerary. My only worry was that I'd be spending too much time in Italy (I don't know if that's really possible haha, but since it's my first trip to Europe...) when I could instead experience another culture/landscape in Greece. What are some of the highlights of Sicily?

janisj

You can see a LOT of Scotland w/o a car. Trains serve Edinburgh, the Borders, Aberdeen, Oban, Glasgow, Ayrshire, Inverness, etc . And there are really excellent small group tours out of both Glasgow and Edinburgh

https://www.rabbies.com/en/edinburgh-tour-departures

But three weeks is simply not enough time for Paris, the UK (assuming you want more than just London) and Sweden --

Envierges

Glad you replied. I felt I was being a little presumptive. No. It's NOT possible to spend too much time in Italy (or France.)

The highlights of Sicily are in the layers of conquering cultures piled on top of each other. You can see an example of the only Phoenician mosaics in existence. Roman mosaics, Byzantine mosaics. Part of Palermo follows the pattern of old Arab Panormos. Ortigia is still a Greek village. Norman hill towns. There's so much in Sicily that you would profit from all the reading you could manage to fully enjoy what you're seeing. History, culture, museums, and wonderful food!!!!

PalenQ

Yes drop Bellagio and if bent on Lake Como stay in Como, a lovely old city on the lake of the same name.

PalenQ

@PalenQ I would love to spend time in Scotland. It was previously at the top of my list for countries to visit, but I'm afraid that I won't be able to see much there without a car. Any suggestions? I haven't researched Scotland too much, so I don't know where I'd like to go, but I'd have to travel by rail. And I'd love to do some hikes up there, but as a solo female, would this be safe?>

Yes to the last sentence unless Big Foot gets out of Loch Ness!

I've done Scotland by train - here is a good routing:

train London-York-Edinburgh

train Edinburgh to Inverness - use local transportation to see Loch Ness if that interests you but it is just another lovely Scotish lake of many

Inverness to Kyle of Lochlash on one of Europe's top scenic trains

From Kyle take the bus over to the Isle of Skye and bus around one of the famous Scottish isles - then head to the south of Skye by bus and take the ferry to Maillaig to hop an even more scenic trains the West Highlands Line to Ft William and eventually to Glasgow - Harry Potter fans will find places along the line where the film was shot on location:

https://www.google.com/search?q=west...w=1920&bih=950

Use Ft William as a base to do some hiking in the famous Highlands - good local buses take you not far to some neat trails or hop the West Highlands Line train to the Rannoch Moor station and hike thru one of Scortland'smost rugged moors:

https://www.google.com/search?q=rann...w=1920&bih=950

If coming from England - train from York to Berwick-on-Tweed and take the bus to the Borders Abbeys region - Melrose makes a great small town stay - then bus to Galashsiels(sp?) and take the recently reopened railway to Edinburgh.

There is a train trip showing many of the splendors of Scotland with a few bus trips - investigate the Freedom of Scotland railpass (if still around)- check the sites I mentioned way above and also for Scotrail: https://www.scotrail.co.uk/

From Edinburgh you can easily day trip by rail to Stirling (Sterlins?) to see the famous castle and battleground of Braveheart legend (I think)- a sweet regional market town and also another day trip to St Andrews -a lovely old seaside town famous for being the birthplace of Golf- the Old Course -and home to a famous university.

Or take the train to Glasgow with its wonderful collection of old Victorian architecture in its city centre.

There are Caledonian Sleeper trains from London to Edinburgh, Inverness and other Scottish places.

If also traveling in England or Wales enough and Scotland if you have bought a Eurail Youthpass for the Continent you can buy a half-off BritRail Youthpass (if still so offered - check the sites I referred you to in my way above post).

No need for a car or tour to see enough of Scotland that it will awe you.

The Rabbies Tours however get to more remote places without good rail or bus service if that interests you but as a 20-yr old I think you may be in with a lot of much older folks.

Scotland has excellent hostels and things like camping barns along footpaths. Get a copy of Let's Go Europe or Let's Go Britain as it clues you in on them.

traveller1959

How many days would you suggest for Athens and the Peloponnese?

For the main attractions of Athens - Acropolis, Agora, National Museum - one day would be sufficient, however two days are better if you want to see a bit more. From Athens, you can do a loop drive via Corinth/Acrocorinth, Epidauros, Napflio, Mycenae, Mystras, Messene, Koroni, Methoni, Pylos, Olympia, via Patras to Delphi, Hosios Loukas and back to Athens. This loop drive would require 5 to 6 days and it would include the very best of Greece.

Your talk of the south of France is making me want to expand my time there. Would 2 weeks for Cote d'Azur and Provence sound right to you, or would you stay longer?

We have been about 25 times in these areas, last time this September, and we have already booked for next year, also in September. One week for the Côte and one week for Provence, however, would be plenty to see the main attractions and to find some time to relax and enjoy the savoir vivre.

Adney

For your itinerary in France : I think 6 nights in Paris are too much. 4 or 5 nights are enough. You can spend one more night in Strasbourg. It' a very beautiful city, moreover it's different from other cities in France (architecture,foods...). There's so much things to see in this city and in its surroundings. You can consider about Eguishem, Colmar, Riquewhir, etc. They're just about 30-60 minutes from Strasbourg and easily reached by the public transport.
And 3 nights in Loire Valley, it's reasonable.

PalenQ

I agree for the average traveler 6 days in Paris may be too much for a first-timer- consider day trips by train to Reims (great cathedral, Champagne tours) or Chartres (great Gothic cathedral, sweet regional town).

PalenQ

You can also day trip from Paris by train to Mont-Saint-Michel or the Normandy D-day Beaches around Bayeux.

It takes about 3 hrs each way to M-S-M from Paris- spend 4-5 hours and take bus/train Rennes to Paris -maybe have a quick look at lovely Rennes on the way back.

If you had a railpass valid in France it would cover the expensive train or book discounted tickets at www.voyages-sncf.com.

kybourbon

>>> I'd be up for staying in a private room in a nice hostel, but I'd rather stay at a B&B for cheap accommodation. Any advice for finding cheap, nice places to stay that aren't hostels?<<<

In Italy, you can consider convents and monasteries. Select ones with private rooms/bath and late or no curfew.

Also look at apartments for places you stay at least 3 days (many will have a minimum requirement of 3 days). If you come up with a budget per night, people can suggest places once you finalize your itinerary.