First Europe Trip - Itinerary advice please
 

My DH & I are embarking on our first trip to Europe after many dreams of our exciting adventure. Ideally we would have liked much more time for this trip however this is not possible due to work commitments.

I'd really like some advice on whether our itinerary is realistic, best transport options between our destinations & any must do tips for the cities we're planning to visit. We're 28 & 30 y.o's travelling from Australia.

The first week of our trip is a little hectic however this is due to DH driving the Nurburgring on 3&4June (not negotiable) and returning to Nurburgring on 8&9 June for the Rock am Ring Festival (also not negotiable). So far all that has been booked are the international flights, Nurburgring (self drive & ring taxi), Rock am Ring festival & Wimbledon tennis tickets.

Itininerary:
Flight Sydney - Frankfurt
Frankfurt 2 days
drive to
Nurburg (Nurburgring) 2 days
train/drive to
Amsterdam 3 days
train/drive to
Nurburg (Rock am Ring) 2 days
flight to
Munich 4 days (Romantic road self drive from Munich)
flight to
Paris 3 days (day trip to champagne region)
train to
Bordeaux 3 days
flight/train to
Rome - depart on 5 day organised "Emerald Tour" Rome-Naples-pompeii-Sorrento-Capri-Amalfi (return) 1,015euro pp tour inc all day trips meals & accomodation
flight to
Venice (depart Rome) 2 days
flight to
London (Wimbledon x1 day) 3 days
Flight London - Sydney

The entire itinerary sounds hectic and rushed to me. You don't seem to have accounted for the time it will take you to transition from one venue to another.

You're rushing through many of Europe's major cities, most of which deserve a good deal more time. And it's going to be really expensive to do all this.

Only 3 days in Paris, and one of them you're going to Reims? Sorry, doesn't seem reasonable at all to me. You can drink champagne right in Paris.

And why Bordeaux? Not a "normal" first trip to Europe venue, and not that exciting, either. Now, a week in the Dordogne would be sublime.

You're young. You'll go back. Slow down!

I'd take out Bordeaux, add those days to Paris. Then take out Venice, add those days to London.

My reasoning is this: For a first trip to Paris you need more than you've currently allocated, an "A" list city, not Bordeaux as StCirq has mentioned.

Two days isn't giving Venice it's due, do it another time, and you need the days for London.

Then it begins to look like fun rather than a forced march. To improve it further you could leave out Amsterdam for some quality time in the area around Nurburg between commitments. And I'd go from Germany to Rome, then Paris and the Eurostar train to London. Much better now.

Sounds like your doing a 5 day whirlwind organized tour of Southern Italy when you get to Rome, leaving no time to actually see Rome. Rather than sit on a bus for five days, why not just stay in Rome and enjoy the city? Much of experiencing Italy is about enjoying its food and wine, while sitting in a cafe and watching the world go by. You will miss the best part of Italy if you are rushing around too much. Slow down and see all the many wonderful sites Rome has to offer.

I also like StCirq's & MmePerdu'schanges. Much better paced and gets you time to actually see anything in Paris and London.

I personally wouldn't take that 5-day coach tour, but it doesn't sound horrible (as long as the hotels are decent)

I would also omit Amsterdam and substitute a German destination or destinations, just because you'll get better bang for your buck. Possibilities? The Rhine gorge (Koblenz - Mainz), Aachen, Cologne, maybe Luxembourg or Maastricht. Maybe even stay in Koblenz and radiate out from there. Tiny Prüm is not far away either, good for a short stop, if you have time. But you'll have a long drive there and a long drive back if you go all the way to Amsterdam when there is quite a bit to see in the districts around Nürburg.

Lavandula

Drawing all that together, you would have this:

Flight Sydney - Frankfurt
Frankfurt 2 days
drive to
Nurburg (Nurburgring) 2 days
tour Rhine 3 days
train/drive to
Nurburg (Rock am Ring) 2 days
drive to
Munich 4 days (Romantic road self drive from Munich)
flight to flight/train to
Rome -5 days [you could get train to Venice and then train to Rome, if you borrow a couple of days here and there]
flight to
Paris 6 days (day trip to champagne region)
train to
London (Wimbledon x1 day) 5 days

i agree that's much better.
Flight London - Sydney

A vote for the proposed changes from me as well. I note the interest in wine has appeared twice in the OPs list. If that is hobby or career driven and therefore important you could add

1) The Rhine & Mosel have some great wines though you need to go up to the Ahr river (not far) to get reds though even these will be a little light. Riesling is a significant Australian product now-a-days so worth visiting its home and getting to enjoy semi-dry or even sweet versions.
2) If you want to do a day out you could still drop down to Reims from your Mosel/Rhine situation
3) as (2) but visit Alsace for those Gewurtz and Pinot Gris specials
4) While I understand there is drinkable white wine in Italy (seldom tasted but often spoken of) they do make a considerable proportion of the worlds great red wines in the country so I'm sure a day trip is very possible to a winery.

Thanks for your suggestions and advice. After much debate and careful consideration we have ended up going with the following itinerary & can't wait for our adventure to begin!

3 nights Nurburg
3 nights Amsterdam
1 night nurburgring (RockAmRing)
1 night Frankfurt (before an early morning flight -I couldn't take two nights camping at a music festival without shower amenities!)
4 nights Munich
3 nights Paris
4 nights Rome
2 nights Sorrento
2 nights Venice
5 nights London
Transport will be flights, except between rome & Sorrento- we'ver arranged car hire & sorrento to venice we'll be taking the overnight train.

marking

You really didn't take much of the advice offered. Your trip will be very rushed. Why not at least take a day from Munich and add it to Paris? Paris has much more to offer than Munich IMO. And you are already spending a lot of your time in Germany.

I guess you didn't think anyone here had much in the way of valuable suggestions. Enjoy your tour of the airports of Europe.

Two nights in a city equal one full day of sightseeing. So by that reasoning you have alloted two full days to Paris, hopefully without a daytrip anywhere since 2 days in Paris is hardly enough to eat a crossiant.. You have allowed one full day in Venice and Sorrento.

I have no idea what you are doing, but it will be a lovely tour of train stations and airports.

I really don't understand why Paris gets only two full days and places like Munich and London get more, I like London but would split time a bit more evenly myself. I would dump Sorrento and Venice since you are only doing a whistle stop there ( and yes, Venice is beautiful to visit, but you just don't have that much time)

yes, korky, you seem to have come away from the revised itinerary that you posted some time ago, and gone back more towards the old bitty version.

your trip of course, but you're really piling on the miles [or should I say kms?] for relatively little reward.

Just "amening" what others say in the latter posts--you didn't seem to care for what we suggested.
Paris deserves more time. Sorrento? Meh. Even 4 nights in Munich?

sigh :(

This will be an excellent learning experience, if not an excellent traveling one. But maybe, having nothing with which to compare it, it will seem very nice to them. They are, after all, 28 & 30 and can slow down as they get older when they have no choice. And like mine, their best trips may be after they're 50.

Good advice. Thx

KOrky--even if you don't take all the other good advice above ( and I really hope you do take it), please reconsider Amsterdam. When I first read this, I thought that stuck out from the itinerary.

Rhine and Mosel Rivers are both beautiful and easily doable by car from Nurburg. It'll make your first week a lot more relaxing, unless DH is all "driven out." In which case you could probably get a cruise down the Rhine to Amsterdam which would be relaxing and let you see Amsterdam if you must.

If you keep the above places to visit, I'd go from Munich to Venice to Rome and thence to Paris and on to London. Otherwise, you're taking much longer flights than necessary. Munich and Venice are pretty close, as are Paris and London. Any reason for jumping around Europe like that?

Thanks for all of your suggestions and advice. Your travel experience and willingness to provide advice is invaluable to help with planning travel adventures.

We have thought long and hard about the trip and though a few comments have been that we'll be back so no need to rush around, realistically we won't be back to this beautiful land for at least another 10 years.

While I agree with the fact that spare time will be scarce, we have formed the view that while we're there we won't have a huge amount of down time but we do have enough time to visit & experience all of the not negotiable "bucket list" activities. Most of which have also already been pre-purchased given the tight schedule.

I disagree that 2 days is hardly enough time to eat a croissant in France, I seem to have no problems demolishing one in about 2 minutes! ;) We have taken the advice offered and crossed day trips from France off the list.

We have given ourselves roughly double the time in each of the cities that the standard "cookie cutter" under 35's group tours allocate(which many friends have experienced and still came home with amazing life experiences, beautiful photographs and stories to share). We are just trying to make the most of the time we have.

I wish we had more time to enjoy the regions we plan to visit, but I am certain that following this trip we will have a good idea of where we'd like to visit when we do eventually get back to visit again and will most certainly will be stopping to soak it all in.

I think when you begin to get your flights and the times you will find that your amount of time in places is even more cut down than you seem to think.

>>We have given ourselves roughly double the time in each of the cities that the standard "cookie cutter" under 35's group tours allocate<<

You seem to have your minds set so have a great time. However, please don't compare a group tour itinerary w/ being even remotely doable independently. If that is what you want -then take a tour and every thing will be taken care of for you.

On a tour you are on the bus for <i>hours</i> many days (sometimes - on cheaper tours - every single day). There are few 'visits' (go inside) and many "see" - which is tour brochure-speak for drive by w/o stopping.

When my own DH told me of your inquiry, having traveled the length & breadth of the Roman Empire with him (our first trip abroad consisting of 7 big countries in 3 little weeks), I must ask first what exactly, besides attending events requiring tickets purchased in advance, do you like doing together on vacation? Art museums? Wine country? Walking tours of historic sights? The cities you wish to see each have their own distinct charms that take time to enjoy-Roma has occupied tourists for centuries. I recall an American threesome of middle-aged women stopping us on a Roman street to ask: "Is THAT the Colosseum?" They, pointing at the ruins of the Circus Maximus, were walking around on a beautiful Sunday afternoon with no map, no guide book, no sense of direction. If you insist on dashing about this much on a short trip, plus taking in ticketed events in distant ports of call, may I suggest knowing in advance what exactly you wish to see in all these lovely places & allow ample time to get to each site. And remember the old sayings (i) Less is More & (ii) Rome wasn't built (or seen!) in a day! My husband & I thought that our one 3-wk trip of our youth would be more than enough to last a lifetime but all those quick glimpses of fantastic places did was whet our appetite for countless more trips! HAVE FUN.

"We have thought long and hard about the trip..."

While I've already commented that I sympathize with your desire to go everywhere on your list, do keep in mind that thinking about and having any experience with are far from the same thing. We get that you will ignore much of the advice given by the experienced (yes, mostly older) travelers here. But consider the possibility that at some point on this forced march you may decide to slow up just a bit so try to make provision for it. As in stay put an extra day at one location and catch up with the list a day or 2 later. It doesn't hurt to know you can.

<<I'd really like some advice on whether our itinerary is realistic, best transport options between our destinations & any must do tips for the cities we're planning to visit.>>

Well, that certainly was bogus.

The overnight train from Sorrento to Venice is actually from Naples, so you'd need to get to Naples first. Then, you'll change trains at Roma Termini and arrive Venice at 5:20 a.m. What will you do in Venice at that hour? There is luggage storage at the Venice S.L. station, but I doubt it would be open yet so you'll be babysitting your luggage for a few hours. It would be better to fly Paris-Naples and see Rome on your way north to Venice.

Or even better, skip Sorrento altogether and add the time to other places that you've short-changed, like Paris and Venice.

Jean, good (though likely unheeded) point. Rome and Venice have so much to offer it makes no sense to fiddle with getting to and from Sorrento on this epic journey. Sorrento is more a place to chill, not on this agenda. Later (as in another trip) for Sorrento.

And still we soldier on.

First off , ten years seems like a long time to young folks, but its not I too had a Europe travel hiatius , raising young kids etc, but we were able to resume it once kids reached school age, and in meantime still travelled , just a bit easier stuff ( for us, Hawaii, cruises, and rving) ..

Second, do not compare what any bus tour can to, they have the timeline streamlined. When they are switching locations all the passengers do is come down from their hotel rooms,walk out front door of hotel, and get in bus. You will not have that luxury, you will spend another hour doing the mundane, checking out, taking transport to next train station or airport possible wait time, , and then the travel time... meanwhile the bus tour is already been on the road for a hour or two..

Thanks for all the interest, the trip is booked and we're set to go. I think some of you have read between the lines when referencing my comment regarding orgsnised tours. We have travelled before both in Oz and abroad, I travel for work weekly a sales rep so I am fairly experienced at packing, unpacking waiting & factoring in travel delays. We are under no illusion about the actual time being taken to get from a to b. And I wasn't comparing this travel journey to a tour, I was comparing the length of time in each city with the time physically spent there by our mates. Anywho thanks for your feedback it has been taken on board.

K0rky, please let us know how you get on, should be interesting if nothing else :-)

You have offended the masses who believe they know better than you what you like, k0rky. And bilbo even wants you to come back and tell them all how horrible it was so they can gloat!

Well done. And by that I mean your politeness and charm in responding to the admonishments and chidings.

This is why I will always by an Aussie a drink.

If you want any specific advice on making this all work from location to location please do come back and ask. The results you can receive here are decidedly better when you don't offend the responders broad sense of what is appropriate for them.

Dear Korky - Your charming inquiry has been keeping me up nights! I want with all my heart for you lovebirds to have a grand time but - and I'm no math genius - your mention of "2 weeks vacation" I understood to be the total length of time you have for Europe (and which I assume includes those 3 ticketed events in far-flung locales) and which must not, I assume, include the long flights to/from home - then, why is it that your reconfigured list of nights you plan to be in each FAB European city total not 14 nights but a whopping 28?

Also, in reading thru various remarks here, I must add that my husband & I did a couple of group tours (only because we knew everyone in the group) - what the British call "coach tours" - with companies experienced in hauling-feeding-sheltering tourists plus all their luggage to myriad places in short order, but attempting such a jam-packed schedule to widely separated destinations by your twosome quickly and efficiently is, I'm afraid, simply unrealistic. Many carefree young adults tell of their lengthy European travels because they spent entire summers or school years backpacking to a long list of places - not 2 weeks - even if 14 days extends by magic into 28 nights!

One other note if I may: in 2006 we concluded our self-styled one month Mozart's 250th birthday tour with 2.5 days in Munich: in-depth visit to their great art museum, fine dining in a medieval restaurant, festive beer garden, shopped till we dropped @Saturday outdoor mart including a yum Chinese meal & noontime mechanical clock tower show; on Sunday, our last vacation day, we hiked to a shop we had visited on the previous day but all of downtown Munich was closed. What else Munich might have held for us to see/do, with our particular interests, I don't know, but we packed in a lot those 2.5 days and I believe you can too but please carefully examine your timetable. AND HAVE FUN.

Aramus- you are hilarious champ!

Cruzcontrol- please re-read the OP. We have always stated this trip is for the full month of June being 28 nights away.

You will enjoy the Romantic Road trip in Germany--if you love as I do, gorgeous countryside, flowers, villages. Even the cemeteries are beautiful.

I understand your wanting to see it all. Our first trip we traveled by car and tried to do the same. A lot of wonderful memories were made.

PatW47 you have hit the nail on the head. It excites me that there are others who have found the romantic road to be a breathtaking and a worthwhile experience. Thanks for sharing :)

Nah, gloating is not the issue, for me Fodors is a self-help group and if we offer advice and it is rejected that's ok, in fact the OP may be more right than me which is good and better still if he lets me know afterwards.

If the OP has a good time and can give me any advice as to how it went it will mean I can use some of his evidence based experience to make my holidays better. I often carry out holidays by bike and will only stay in a town for one night much of which is spent sleeping and trying to get muscles to work etc and I doubt I make best use of my destinations. So Korky, please let us know the ups and downs.