First & Likely Only Trip to Spain
 

Once every two or three years my wife and I like to explore places in the world. This year, after thinking about a safari-type trip to Africa, or SE Asia, we’ve settled on Spain. We’re just beginning to visualize a 3 or 4 week trip beginning apx. In the second week of Sept.

Following is a crude outline of one of many attempts at a rough itinerary for your freewheeling thoughts about it. In the end, it will probably end up much different. (We’re torn between staying in 2 or 3 places, or travelling around as shown.)

Considerations:

We’re in our mid 70’s but still somewhat adventurous and physically active (ski, bike, hike). We enjoy different cultures, history, sights, architecture, art, and the outdoors. You can get a feel for our travel style in our blog about a trip to Australia a couple of years ago: Lee's Random Ramblings: 30 Days Down Under - Part 1 - Overview & Index

We’re not foodies, food for us is just body fuel. My wife doesn’t do well in heat (yeah, Spain is a bit questionable for that). We’ve been looking at https://weatherspark.com to get a feel for the change in weather during the shoulder season, and we’ve been looking at https://www.rome2rio.com/ to get an idea of travel times.

1: Non-stop flight Seattle or Vancouver to Europe
2: Stay at a transfer point - 1 day, 2 nights
3: travel day: fly to Barcelona
4, 5, 6, 7: Barcelona – 4 days, 5 nights
8: travel day: fly to Granada: 1.5 hrs
9, 10, 11: Granada – 3 days, 4 nights
12: Travel day: train 2.5: hrs
13, 14: Ronda – 2 days, 3 nights
15: Travel day: train, bus, ferry: 5-6 hrs
16: Tangier, Morocco – 1 day, 2 nights
17: Travel day: ferry, bus: 6 hrs
18, 19, 20: Sevilla – 3 days, 4 nights
21: Travel day: train: 1 hr
22, 23: Cordoba – 2 days, 3 nights
24: Travel day, train: 2 hrs
25, 26, 27: Madrid – 3 days, 4 nights
28: fly, transfer, fly to Seattle or Vancouver

Agree about Tangier. Save Morocco for when you have some time to get to know the real country.

So, you are basically doing Barcelona, Madrid, and Andalusia on a 28 day trip (with a side trip to Tangier). I agree with the others about dropping Tangier, but I did enjoy a trip to Gibraltar. You might like that, and/or some of the surrounding coastal towns.

Sevilla, Cordoba, and Granada are likely to be rather warm, unless you catch a break. I would try to put those sites at the end of your trip. Madrid can get quite warm, too, but the odds are slightly better the further north you go. There are lots of great things to see in the north of Spain that might be better from a weather standpoint, but if this is your one and only trip to Spain, and Andalusia is your priority outside Madrid and Barcelona, then I wouldn't let the weather stop me--just push those back as far as you can.

Book long-distaance high-speed train in advance for possible discounts at Renfe - Spanish Railways site which many find hard to use - www.seat61.com has sage tips on doing that yourselves. General info BETS-European Rail Experts and www.ricksteves.com. If take train Barcelona-Granada about 5.5. hrs I think - then look into the Spain Railpass which lets you decide which trains to take once there - above siteshave info on that.

And though they once said 'that the pain in Spain was mainly on the train' that is no longer true and Spain has one of Europe's finest high-speed rail networks.

Regarding Spaincompared to so many other places
 

Hi, Your trip itinerary sounds quite nice, but having been to Spain several times, I'd make a couple of suggestions-

First of all, I definitely would not plan on spending 3 nights in Rhonda. There just isn't that much to see or do there. In truth, having been there, I wouldn't even recommend making a stop there unless you are just dead set on it. It is a very old town and very high in the mountains, but really, other than a cool ancient bridge, nothing special compared to so many other places. Also, Tangiers is another place I wouldn't bother going, unless you just want to say you've been to Africa. It is very much like a Mexican border town with hordes of hustlers (including children) following you about trying to sell you junk or take you to their 'cousin's' special store where you can "buy a Persian Rug very cheap"- lol!

Barcelona is awesome and you'll certainly enjoy your time there- Try to stay near the city center somewhere within walking distance to the Ramblas. I recommend one of the 'NH' hotels in the city center, several of which have a roof top bar and pool that offers incredible views of the City.

Madrid is also a lot of fun, but again better if you are near the center- There are some good hotels at decent prices in the area around 'Sol' which is one of the large plaza's and a subway stop. Lot's of cool stuff within walking distance.

Now, finally- Putting my nose where it doesn't belong, if I were you I would shorten up on most of the rest of your itinerary and consider some other options. Cordoba, Seville & Granada are all good stops, but other than the Alhambra & some flamenco, you might find you're just seeing a lot of the same. At the risk of offending you after you have obviously spent a lot of time & effort in planning, I suggest you consider one of two alternatives:

1) Skip Rhonda and Tangiers and add Marbella, Mijas (a beautiful white-washed village in the mountains above Marbella) and Gibraltar.

2) Skip Rhonda, Cordoba and Tangiers, and add Cadiz after you leave Seville. Cadiz is on a narrow island-like peninsula that extends out into the sea and has many great Tapas Bars and restaurants, as well as some really nice beaches on the leeward side.

One last thing- you might check into taking 'night trains' that have sleepers for some of the longer jaunts between cities. These save you wasting a day traveling, as well as the cost of a hotel- Just a thought.

Again, these are just my suggestions and I'm sure others will disagree, but I offer them humbly simply as an attempt to help.

I would take two nights out of Ronda and add Toledo.

Here is our 2015 trip report link(below with photos.

https://travelswithmaitaitom.com/spain-2015/

We spent five nights in Barcelona
Three Nights in Granada
One Night in a Zahara de la Sierra ... stopped at Ronda for lunch ... not overly impressed
Three nights in Sevilla
One night in Cordoba
Three nights in Toledo (our favorite
Four nights in Madrid.
Don't miss the Spanish GinTonics (:

You've already gotten some great advice!

I enjoyed a night in Ronda, but agree that it's not of the same caliber as most of the other places you are considering.

I haven't been to Morocco yet, but agree that it would make sense for you to wait until you can spend more time there, and instead use the time in Spain.

I like your time allocations. :tu: If you need one more day, I would think you could take it from Granada.

If you can, do add 2 or 3 nights in magnificent Toledo and 3 or 4 nights in stunning Salamanca.

I disagree strongly with the idea that "you might find you're just seeing a lot of the same" with the places you mention. IMO, they are substantively different from one another -- intriguingly so! To each his/her own. ;)

We loved Cordoba so wouldn't want you to miss it. I would agree with some of the others about Ronda. We enjoyed it because it came in the middle of a busy trip and we were ready for some down time but it isn't a "must" like your other destinations. You could likely shorten your original trip and leave a little later if you want to aim for cooler weather Just a thought...

My 2 cents worth
 

This is the trip we took in 2016 with my parents in law:
5 nights Barcelona, Daytrip into Ceret and Collioure in France
Daytrip to Girona
Fly Vueling to Malaga 4 nights: Daytrip Gibralta
: Daytrip Granada
Drive to Seville 5 nights Daytrip Jerez
Daytrip Cordoba
Fly Air Nostrum Valencia : Daytrip Cuenca
Train to Madrid 4 nights : Daytrip Toledo
: Daytrip Segovia
I would give Tangier a miss, make Morocco a trip on its own.
We used trains for most of the daytrips and booked our day at Alhumbra with a tour guide as both Mum and Dad slight hearing loss, and I felt they
would get more out of it going at their own pace. The tour group picked us up from the car park after and took us to a resturante overlooking the site for lunch, and then back to our car.
I booked lunch in one of the "hanging houses' in Cuenca, this was a lovely day out, and the fast train was easy, there and back. We were there over Easter, the weather was good, cooler which suited us all.
It was a trip to remember, lots of great memories.

Can't really speak to the available of night trains today, as it has been almost 3 years since I've ridden one in Spain, but my experience then was just fine. Good accommodations and hot coffee at my door upon being awakened. I do see online where a number of the routes appear to be "temporarily suspended", particularly the Barca to Granada train which might have been a good one for the OP to consider.

Thanks for the many suggestions ... they'll help with our second stage of planning ... we'll likely have more specific questions a lit later.

If we eliminate Tangier it makes the planning easier. The reason we included it is that we thought getting a glimpse of a "Moorish-like" place(?) or north Africa (even though it might be sort of "Tijuana-esque") would be a nice companion to the Moorish history of Andalucia. We'll be giving that lots of thought. It would be great to see Morocco on a dedicated trip, but given our age (75) and the wide variety of interests we have, we don't know if we'll run out of time/energy before getting there.

The reason we picked Ronda for a stop is it seemed like an easy place to get to by train/bus and could possibly be a base for either renting a car and/or bicycles to explore some of the white towns. Or would there be a better place to do that?

Also: we'll probably cycle a bit here and there. Are there any recommendations for nice Via Verdes in Andalucia, especially some that would be easy to access by train or bus and where rental bikes could be found? (Or suggestions about biking or bike tours in some of the cities, too?) A total round trip of 50 km (25 km one way) without hills, less than that with hills, would be about our limit.

Just a thought on driving to and from Rhonda- I don't profess to be an expert on all the roads in that region, but the area around Rhonda is quite rugged. May be better now, but when I was there a few years ago, the roads were kind of like driving CA 101 along the coast, but much more narrow and less well maintained. It was kind of scary, especially when you met an oncoming bus or truck. In fact, I can remember looking down one of the very steep drop offs and seeing a wrecked bus just like the one I was on.

I really think you'd like the Marbella area as a 'home base' to branch out from. It's well located to see a lot of Andalusia being only an hour drive to Rhonda, and Algeciras (the Port if you do decide to do a day trip to Tangiers) and even less than that to Mijas, Torremolinas, Malaga, etc. That area around Torremolinas has some nice casinos that feature variety shows with flamenco & the like. Granada to Marbella is around a 2 hour drive along the Costa Del Sol if that interests you at all.

I wouldn't particularly recommend visiting Malaga, as it's a pretty touristy area/cruise port and I think your time can be better spent elsewhere, but it is the primary regional airport hub for that part of Spain.

Torremolinas - stayed there a week with school kids I was chaperoning and it was all tourists - Malaga has tourists but also a real old town and castle or something on a big hill blah high-rise Torremolinas I would never recommend to anyone except someone wanting a good beach for a longer stay.

I don't know about bicycles, but yes, Ronda is easily reached by train or bus. I think whether to visit or not depends on (a) how important it is to you to stop in one of the white towns and/or have a bit of a respite mid-trip and (b) what you are willing to cut or shortchange so you have time for it. No right or wrong answers, just a difficult decision.

https://www.cyclingcountry.com/bike-...ada-andalucia/

https://www.cyclingcountry.com/bike-...l=4open-to-all

I agree with one night in Ronda, it's only a small town and the part of any real interest is the gorge, the old bridges and the old town all of which can be 'done' in a slow pace in a day. I've been there a couple of times on day trips because it's been close to where we stay and I enjoy the bum clenching drive up the mountains from the coast.

Also forget about Tangier. We went last year solely because we'd been visiting the same part of Spain for a number of years and wanted to see what the fuss was all about. I can honestly say you'll be wasting your time. You won't gain an understanding of Moorish culture, the place is very run down, dirty and little of interest coupled with the constant hassle of people trying to sell you tat at inflated prices. It's an entire day that could be better spent elswhere.

Check out Estepona, Benahavis for the food, Marbella for the old town and Malaga for a whole variety of excellent museums, history, food and coastal atmosphere. Avoid Torremolinos like the plague, along with Feungirola. You might also consider adding Gibraltar into the mix, as a Brit I compare it to Swindon in the 1980's (which is complimentary) but I know that a lot of people like it. That would comprise a good and logical route to start from and include, Ronda, Estepona, Benahavis, Marbella and Malaga.

We did the same trip in May 2018
 

May weather was nice most of the time.I think only one day was hot.

We did a day trip to Morocco from Marbella. It was my least favorite part of the trip. Marbella was very nice and had an upscale resort feel. If you like that sort of thing. My favorite stops were Seville and Toledo. I agree with many who suggested Toledo as an addition.

We landed in Barcelona and after 3 nights few to Grenada and rented a car at the Grenada airport. Driving is Spain was fine and allowed us to see things at our leisure. We returned the car at Seville and took the train the rest of the way.

Have fun.

All: Thanks for your thoughts.
We're adjusting the itinerary ... still similar, but eliminating Tangier and trying to find a relatively untouristed small town in the mountains to spend a few days. Ideally it would have a bike rental place and be nearby a via verde ... that's one way of biking in the mountains without encountering steep hills. I've always found biking a nice way of meeting people and getting a bit more "up close" feel of an area. *Does anyone have suggestions for a small town near a via verde in the mountains?* (We'll also be trying to cycle or do a cycle tour in a number of the major stops if its not too hot. *Anyone have suggestions for that, too?*)

We want to cover quite an area, but don't want to be on the move too much, so are honing things so we stay a minimum of 3 days, 4 nights in any one spot, and 4 days, 5 nights, or more, as such as we can. This will, we hope, give us options to randomly take "down days" spontaneously depending on how we feel and the weather and laundry needs. Plus, by having a travel day between days when we're staying somewhere, often gives us a chance to work in a little unplanned activities in the morning or afternoon.

We're also looking at how many places on our itinerary we could do as day trips from other places.

Barcelona is kind of an outlier from an otherwise Andalucia-focused, but because of my interest in city planning and architecture, I want to see Barcelona's attempt at new "superblocks" and how they are working, and to see Gaudie's work.

I agree with danon that people travel with different styles and preferences, and with all due respect to danon, I disagree with the statement that "one loses at least half a day when changing locations." I change locations a LOT when I travel, and except when packing for a flight (when I need to pay attention to what can and can not be taken on board), I haven't spent as much as one hour taking care of all of the tasks required for relocating (packing, unpacking, checking in, checking out, etc.) in at least my last 18 trips. That means that for me, any potential day trip that's an hour a way is actually MORE costly in terms of time than simply relocating, at least if that location is more or less en route to the place I'm going after that. I love being able to see places in varying lights; I enjoy having the memory of different rooms to go with different places, and I abhor losing time when I travel, as it is for me an extraordinarily precious commodity. So while I completely understand that not everyone can or would do what I do, I wouldn't assume that relocating is necessarily a time consuming hassle for everyone.

So while I completely understand that not everyone can or would do what I do, I wouldn't assume that relocating is necessarily a time consuming hassle for everyone.>

I agree - when I traveled I knew how to get to hotel and always tried to arrange one near the train station and was out of train and dumping bags in room within 30 minutes - and out and about. I can see some slow packers, etc taking longer and having hotels far from stations if not taking car.

This is a bit of a diversion from the OP's post, but I find that as we often book B&Bs or apartments, the time in moving on to the next place is not necessarily in the packing up and travelling but in the fact that we typically have to vacate place#1 by mid morning and can't access place#2 until mid-afternoon, and cannot always rely upon finding somewhere to stash our luggage in the mean time. Not a problem if staying in hotels or if you have so little luggage that you can easily carry it around with you. Or if you have a car, I guess. Not having to deal with luggage is one reason why I tend to favour day trips, rather than short hops (and I travel relatively lightly).

You got some good advice already. I'd second on the idea to skip Ronda and Morocco. I'd rather add a destination like San Sebastian to give you some more variety in your trip. Spain's northern coast is quite different to the Mediterranean. You'll also have enough time to do day trips from your major destinations, e.g. Toledo from Madrid. Otherwise, I think you have a good itinerary. Try to get into the famous "Mediterranean diet" a bit - the Spanish cuisine. It's really worth it, and part of the experience.

Toledo at night is so mystical, IMHO one of the not to be missed places in Spain. Segovia is also lovely. I would skip Tangiers, cut a day from Granada and two from Ronda. That gives you five days for other places. An extra move, yes, but stay one night in Toledo or stay as late as possible and have dinner there. Perhaps you could do your biking around Salamanca

>> trying to find a relatively untouristed small town in the mountains to spend a few days <<

We spent 3 nights in Cazorla which fits that description perfectly. Turned out to be a very enjoyable stop on our month-long trip to Spain a few years ago. We chose that town because my ancestors are from there. A bit hard to get to, we rented a car in Cordoba. It's about 3 hours drive, but we made two stops along the way: the parador in Jaen, and a couple nights in the Renaissance towns of Ubeda and Baena. We comfortably fit that into a relatively slow paced trip. We returned the car in Granada.

Cazorla may not be right for you but you can have a look. There are a couple Via Verdes in Jaen province,

Also add my .$0.02 to shortening Ronda and adding Toledo.

And now for something completely different. We spent 5 weeks driving northern Spain from from West to East a few years ago. We started in Galicia and ended in Barcelona, flying in and out of Madrid. We did it in Sept.-Oct. (and are going back to northern Spain for 3 weeks this Sept.: San Sebastian and Barcelona). We had been to Andalusia many years ago. What we loved about this trip was experiencing many different cultures along the way, including Galicia, Asturias, Basque, Catalan. If you feel the need to experience southern Spain, fly to Seville for a clouple days. It is a beautiful city and a true southern experience. I also recommend reading the Maribel guides online, as her advice is great.

elbegewa, we will be visiting Spain later this year and offer part of our itinerary in case it's of interest to you to do something similar. We plan to base ourselves in Jerez de la Frontera for a few days and, from there, visit places like Cadiz, Arcos and Medina Sidonia, hopefully all by public transport. I also love the idea of cycling but hills on a bike are not my thing and many of the white towns are on hills. Perhaps you could look into cycling around some of the vineyard areas of Jerez? If looking for other white towns, I've found the guidebooks I've borrowed from the library to list many of them. One we would have liked to have included was Grazalema but transport there seems to be even more limited than normal. I have been interested to read other's comments on Ronda and the general lack of wild enthusiasm.

Of course, my suggestions are based on our own planning so please do follow up with your own research as we're yet to visit so can't speak from experience.

@Dreamon:
On another site a person told me about biking near Ronda. They had me look at this website: Mountain Bike Rides and Day Trips | Ronda | Hike + Bike. In doing research, I found some vids about the Vie Verde de la Sierra near Ronda and The person who recommended it has a blog about their trip https://leoneandmiketravel.com/2016/...unnels-galore/

So we are *considering* spending a couple of days in Ronda ... we'll decide by mid to late May. We're looking at other places too, incl. Arcos, places near Jaen, places near Cadiz, and a few other places. It looks like Spain might be a great country for both mountain biking and road cycling, but at our age (75) will need to keep it less strenuous, so likely will just do some city cycling (in Seville, and/or Madrid, and/or Barcelona) , maybe with local tour groups, maybe just renting on our own -- we'll decide on that when there. And we will plan a few days of leisure cycling at a scenic spot like Ronda somewhere, likely along one of the many Via Verdes. Most of the trip will not include cycling, but we want to include at least a few partial days.

Usually when we travel we rent a car for part of it, but this time are thinking about using only public transportation ... incl. infrequent local buses if need be. Am looking forward to that.

looks like you've received some excellent advice so far, and I absolutely agree about dropping Morocco which if you are going to go at all deserves a proper long visit.

I started at the beginning and wondered about whether you could fly non stop to Spain but it looks as if that's a no-no [which means I can trust someone here to prove me wrong!] From Vancouver [or Portland Or] you can only fly into LHR in Europe, but from Seattle you have quite a lot of choice so I would choose somewhere that has an easy transfer to the centre, like Amsterdam rather than Paris or London. Plenty of flights from there to BCN.

So going back to your itinerary that would give you this: [day by day]

1: Non-stop flight Seattle - Amsterdam
2: Arrive Amsterdam- 2 nights
3: Amsterdam
4. fly to Barcelona stay 5 nights
5, Barcelona
6, Barcelona
7: Barcelona
8: Barcelona
9. fly to Granada: 3 days, 4 nights
10, Granada
11: Granada
12: Granada
13, Train to Ronda 2 days, 3 nights
14: Ronda
15: Ronda
16. train to Seviila 3 days, 4 nights
17: Sevilla
18, Sevilla
19 . Sevilla
20. train to cordoba 2 days, 3 nights
21: Cordoba
22, Cordoba
23 train to Madrid 4 days, 5 nights
24: Madrid
25, Madrid
26, Madrid
27: Madrid
28: fly, transfer, fly to Seattle or Vancouver

Without altering the other destinations at all, you have ended up with an extra night in Madrid, which arguably you could use for elsewhere e.g. Toledo or Segovia. I spent only one night in Toledo and that was only just enough and others suggested that Segovia would have been even better. You can do either as a day trip from Madrid but I as I had to pass through Atocha anyway on my way to Madrid from Valencia, I thought it would be just as easy to carry onto Toledo and spend a night there which proved a very good idea.

Hope this helps.

Thank you very much for the information about cycling in the area. It sounds pretty good!