family of 4 trip to Italy/Paris
 

We are currently researching a trip starting with us leaving Canada June 23 and arriving June 24 for about 21 days for our first trip ever to Europe. We are open to considering a 7 day tour and then do some stuff on our own. I used routeperfect to help and thru internet sites and blogs. Nothing is set in stone yet. My itinerary I was thinking of goes something like this:
Paris for 5 nights
Venice for 3 nights
Rome for 5 nights
San Gimignano area of Tuscany at a agriturismo called Guardastelle 4 nights
Sorrento 4 nights
My kids will be 15 (boy) and 12 (girl). I thought to start the trip in Paris so we would end with more relaxing time.
-Paris is a must as our son is in French Immersion since kindergarden and we would like to expose him to that. No idea where to stay or what to do there yet so suggestions would be great to receive.
-Venice I was thinking of booking rowvenice for a lesson with the kids, possibly checking out the regatta if it is on and doing a mask decorating at Ca'Macana. The touristy stuff. We are looking for a place to stay that might include breakfast and be fairly easy to figure out how to get to. We read about AD Place boutique hotel and in a blog one family recommended Locanda Ai Santi Apostoli. We are looking for suggestions for places to stay. For places to eat places people rec on other sites were la maison de la crepe, ristorante santo stefano, le cafe, osteria la zucca, al merca, cantina do mori/spade, al muro
-Rome we are wanting to stay in the heart of it with lots of things in walking distance. We read about Hotel Trevi, Navona gallery and garden suites, hotel albergo del senato and piazza rondanini......other suggestions? To eat we read of cul de sac, cantina @cucina, figidarium. we will do the touristy stuff.
-Tuscany spot we chose so we could feel connected to the locals and experience relaxing time at the pool, do a cooking class there and horseback riding. It seems good for day trips to Florence, Volterra, Siena. What would be good to do here as a family for day trips and things to do? We will need a car too.
-Sorrento we chose as was reviewed as a good base to explore the Amalfi Coast. Car again with day trip to Pompei, island of capri, positano. We need ideas of places to stay here.
Some other cool places we liked we Puglia area and renting a trulli bought thought it is on the other side. I know I have not factored in travel time between. Not sure if this is too many places to stay? I would love some feedback and suggestions. Thank you for your time:)

Your layout is much better than many first drafts!

For the places you mention and with kids, you for sure do not need a tour!

Each time you change bases, travel from hotel to train or airport, then flight or train trip, then getting to new hotel will eat up a half day or, in the case of your stops like getting to Sorrento, it will eat up more time.

Three nights in a place give you only 2 full days, 4 nights give 3 full days, etc. You will/ may have parts of other days, but they are harder to plan and you should not count them as sightseeing days or days in a place.

Plan in such a way that you can fly into one city and out of another. It may cost more, but saves a day of backtracking and gives more time for doing and seeing things.

You have many options for the order of things, and cost could be a factor. I don't think the order matters a lot enjoyment-wise, but it does matter logistically. You must be in the departure city the night before departure, so save that city for last. Don't split it up into two visits.

If you do Paris, Venice, put Tuscany after that, then Rome, then Sorrento and fly home from Naples.

If you must fly home from Rome, then do Paris, Venice, Tuscany, Sorrento and Rome.

A car in Tuscany will be good. If you are going to.Rome after Tuscany, you could keep the car and drop it in Orvieto or Rome.

If, however, you end up going to Sorrento after Tuscany, you could keep the car and drop it off in Sorrento. For the places you want to see, you absolutely do not need a car in Sorrento.

From Sorrento, you will take the local Circumvesuvianna train to Pompeii. You will take a ferry to Capri. A ferry down the coast to Positano and/or Amalfi is also easy and has fantastic views of the coast, plus you won't be in a crowded, slow bus.

Even though your trip is well planned if you just consider time in each place, IMHO, on a short trip, you can keep on moving. On a longer trip, you need more down time. The time in Tuscany could be that, but you have a lot planned for that time. With Paris being a must, I hate to say this, but I would consider cutting one place in Italy. Sorrento is always a bit of a slog and you have so much planned there also, that you will be on the go with no down time. I love the AC, but logistically, Sorrento would be best to cut, especially if you could not fly out from Naples.

It sounds like you have put a lot of thought in already to what you want to do. A few areas I'm curious about:

Is everyone in the family more interested in Italy than France? It seems a shame that you are not visiting one other site than Paris, just for a little contrast. But I love Italy, so I am not trying to discourage you from Italy.

What are your kids most interested in seeing? I had a hard time getting mine to commit, but try. Rick Steves videos (many of them on Youtube or at your library), or a guide book with decent photos can get the conversation going.

I love your rowing idea in Venice. Do something active when you can.

How would you prefer to get from Paris to Venice? Trains are part of European way of life--I would encourage you to take a train at least once during your trip. Maybe Paris-Venice, or maybe Venice-Tuscany (either Sienna or Florence to pick up the car).

There are restrictions in Paris on vacation rentals that are complicated.
I would book a hotel with air-conditioning, because the weather may be hot. Residential apartments do not have air-conditioning.

If you could include your budget for Paris, that would be helpful.

If you do want a kitchen, you should look for Citadines or Adagio apart'hotels, which are legal.
There is an air-conditioned Citadines on Richard Lenoir which is about a block away from the Bastille open-air food market, which the kids might enjoy.

My brother takes part in the regatta every year, with his ship's pilots' gig rowing team: it's wild on the water, so if "taking a rowing lesson" means that you don't have much experience on the water: beware. It's very, very crowded.

People who offer rowing lessons in Venice do not take newbies & children onto the Grand Canaal or any of the busy canals. It's a good idea to do some rowing lessons with the kids, so you should contact the providers directly.

You should play it by ear as to whether or not you want to take on seeing Florence at the height of summer, and driving yourselves there. The city is notoriously difficult for slapping huge traffic tickets on tourists who mistakenly drive down streets reserved for residents. Just in general the city is packed & heavy with religious art sites & museums, which might be of limited interest to teens. They will see plenty of Renaissance art in Rome, including the work of Michaelangelo. If you do the research and are up for it, don't let me stop you from going. But lots of people imagine they MUST see Florence if they haven' & are nearby, and it turns into an unpleasant experience.

Pisa is more manageable as a day trip San Gimignano, but just as touristy & you do need to read up on traffic laws & how to get the parking lots without breaking them. Renting bicycles is a popular activity in San Gimignano, if that appeals to you. In general, you've got a heavy sightseeing trip, and a breather at Guardastelle (love the name!) for swimming, shopping, visiting small towns on a whim, might be the ticket.

Lots of nice apartment rentals in Rome with air con, wi-fi, etc. I like the agency Rome Loft. It has an easy-to-use website.

I found this helpful guide to eating in Venice that goes by neighborhood (or "sestiere"). In general, you might want to favor places with simpler informal meals rather than sit-down 3-course meals.

http://www.lifelovefood.co/a-guide-t...ing-in-venice/

No car in Sorrento. You don't need one.

Meant to add that sorry that food guide for Venice has so many pictures to get past before you get to the eatery recommendations. Also, many of the full-on restaurants named are what I consider pricey.

Here's a list of budget friendly restaurants in Venice

https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2...s-venice-italy

For something different for kids especially consider taking the overnight Thello night train Paris-Venice - get a private compartment and bring food and drink aboard and relax - saves cost of a hotel and ultimate time saver even over flying. www.thello.com. That said overnight trains ain't for everyone -especially those with sleep/noise problems - most I know sleep fine though- anyway could be an 'adventure' -for lots on night trains check these sites loaded with info on European trains: www.budgeteuropetravel.com; www.ricksteves.com and www.seat61.com - check latter for help on booking your own online tickets-often at a discount - for all trains you may take - especially in Italy.

Thank you so much for all your replies. I definitely have a lot more research to do! Your thoughts and tips are appreciated. Thank you for taking the time to comment. Hearing what you have to say I may need to rethink some of it and how busy it is. I need to check out the flights from here and see where is the best place to fly to and from for the best price. We are hoping to use points to fly return. I will look into travel between places and love the idea of experiencing the train. France vs. Italy we love both. My kids have been watching youtube to see sights and get ideas of what they want out of the trip. For us Paris, Rome and Venice were the must sees. I just tried to throw in some other spots that others recommended and for sure some that had time for us to just relax. I know we can't do it all in one trip but was trying to organize it so we were on the go but had time in some places to relax. For your points about driving THANK YOU. I would rather not drive at all and will look into your suggestions more. We would like to stay in places and eat where it is not too expensive to have more money to do things.

You put a lot of thoughts into your itinerary! I am impressed.

I support PalenQ's suggestion to take the overnight Paris-Venice train. I think your children will love it.

The only place I think you need a car is in Tuscany. Train the rest.

The Amalfi coast is your only seaside destination and is full of sun and spectacular views. I would not cut it out of the itinerary. But I would not stay in Sorrento, as it is not as scenic as other locations. I would choose Positano, Capri/Anacapri, Ravello, Amalfi town... and enjoy where you are. If Pompei is a must, see it on your travel day down to the Amalfi coast. Someone once mentioned about storing luggage and seeing Pompei and then proceeding to their hotel/apartment to Positano. I thought that was very smart.

If you are using points to fly, check fly in Paris and out of Rome/Naples. The fast train from Naples to Rome is one hour.

I just checked the overnight train Paris to Venice on www.othello.com. It looks fun! Is this the best train to take to get there?

Sorrento may be more touristy, but it is easier as a base (especially with only 3 days to sightsee) to get to other places, has many restaurants and is prettier than most people seem to think. It has magnificent views of the Bay of Naples and is an easy train trip to Pompeii, a nice ferry ride to Capri, etc. Seeing Pompeii from Capri or Positano is not easy.
If you go from Rome, then fine, stop in Pompeii. If you go from Tuscany, it is way too long of a trip for kids to enjoy the stop. Visit Pompeii one day, in the morning, when you are rested.

It's the only overnight train - day trains take probably 7-8 hours or more and none direct - changing in Milan. I'd either fly or take the overnight train.

Make that about 10 hours! (check www.bahn.de/en for all European train schedules).

If you don't want to drive in Tuscany you can still have a lovely experience staying in the bike-friendly town of Lucca & visiting Pisa and small Tuscan towns without tourists by train, as well as Florence if you like. Or you can reach Siena by public transportation, stay right at the edge of town where you can find a pool, but also arrange for some horseback rides or bike rides as well as explore the imposing castle hill town & visit Florence if you like.

However, if you are looking to cut something to make it a less busy summer trip, Tuscany is not always a big hit with teens. It can be quite hot, and of course they are not interested in wineries, and many don't like to be stuck in the back seat for scenic driving. Spending extra time in breezier Sorrento to allow for swimming or boat excursions is often more popular, plus the local food (pizza, pasta, pastries) is also generally a hit with teens. If you go hiking in the hills right about Sorrento, amid the lemon trees, you will scarcely see any tourists and you will see a way of Italian life that hasn't much changed for a very long time.

If we used a driver in Sorrento how do you find one? Is it expensive? For island of capri what is there to do beside the chairlift and blue grotto?

Drivers in Sorrento can be quite expensive (35-50 euros per hour) and there is no real advantage to using them. You can take the cheap commuter train to Pompei or Naples, a ferry to the Amalfi coast towns (quicker), and of course you can only take ferries to the islands. The taxis must use the same one road that the buses uses, so you might as well take the bus -- although the buses can indeed be crowded.

People go hiking on Capri. It's quite crowded during the day and not everybody thinks it is a "must-see". There are other islands you can visit that are less crowded. The point of visiting that area is to have fun, not necessarily race around sightseeing, although most people make the effort to see Pompeii (which is quite hot in summer, so go very early if you do go, and bring water, hats, sunscreen and have a plan).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Villa_Jovis

Capri has one Tiberius' Villas - remains of palatial palace on a cliff over which he allegedly threw off his enemies! It was alleged in Roman times that this remote heavily guarded place was a great place of great debaucheries.

Anyway impressive area and views - I walked there from the port area.

https://www.google.com/search?q=tibe...w=1745&bih=863

We stayed six nights in Capri at the end of May and found a lot of outdoors activities to do. You can click on my name and read my trip report if you would like.

I have been searching for hotels in Rome and it is frustrating because it will say sleeps 4 but then you look at the room choices and there is only 3 beds?? I have looked at VRBO as well. Is there a benefit to renting a hotel vs a private rental of an apartment? Since we will be there for 5 nights I was thinking it would be more comfortable to have an apartment. Plus we could have some food on hand there so we don't have to eat out for every single meal. I have been watching a lot of youtube:)) I have been doing endless research it seems but still feel a bit confused about where to go and stay and how to connect the places etc........I can see why some people just book a tour. Maybe I just need a glass of wine to keep going.......teehee

I suggest looking at the rental agency Rome Loft, they have a website. Also look at AirBnb, although I find the site harder to use than Rome Loft.

There are some people who think there are lots of negatives to renting an apartment, above all the absence of a hotel desk, but also they just feel insecure doing it or prefer the "perks" of hotel service. For me the positives hugely outweigh the negatives -- more space, cheaper price, breakfast when I want it & what I want, having a kitchen, etc.

You also need to look carefully at apartment rental listings that say "Sleeps 4" to make sure you get 4 beds of the kind you want.

A great many people find it overwhelming to plan a trip to Italy because it is so hard to choose what to include and what to eliminate. This is especially true if you are traveling as a family with kids. For me, some basic questions to answer are:

Are you comfortable with renting a car for some of the time?

How much does heat bother you?

Do you dislike cities?

Do you dislike crowds?

How much outdoor activity do your kids need? How much goof-off time?

Does your family enjoy museum-going at home? What kinds of museums?

Does anyone have any strong food dislikes/intolerances?

What is the memory of Italy your family would most hope to take home with them?

When we were in Rome we stayed at Modigliani Hotel (http://www.hotelmodigliani.com/en/appartamenti.html). I know they offer quadruple rooms but I think you might be more comfortable in one of their apartments. The hotel is on a small quiet street not far from the Spanish Steps and the Trevi Fountain. They have a very good breakfast. Another option would be Hotel Abruzzi (http://www.hotelabruzzi.it/index.php), which is located very close to the Pantheon. The Abruzzi does offer quadruple rooms. I think their quad rooms are a queen bed and 2 twin beds. When you are searching for accommodations do your search for 4 adults instead of 2 adults and 2 children. I found some places offer rooms with sofa beds that are adequate only for small children. Of course you could always check out Airbnb. When I go back to Rome I am going to explore using Airbnb to stay in the Trastevere neighborhood of Rome because there are several places there I would like to dine at.

When in Rome consider doing the Eco City Tour offered by Angel Tours (http://angeltours.eu/rome/eco-city-tour). We really enjoyed it. By the way angel Tours offers a free tour of the Pantheon. Another fun thing to do is a food tour. We took the Twilight Trastevere Food Tour (https://www.eatingitalyfoodtours.com/rome). You learn lots about the food of Rome and get to enjoy some really great food. If planning on visiting the Vatican do an early entrance tour. It will cost more but it's worth it. Walks of Italy has their "Pristine Sistine" (https://www.walksofitaly.com/) and there is The Roman Guy (https://theromanguy.com/) plus there are others who offer early entrance tours.

If you want to do some unique experiences while in Tuscany contact KM Zero Tours (http://www.kmzerotours.com/). We did 2 separate day trips with them. Those 2 days were definitely the highlight of our 17 days in Italy.

I hope you have a memorable trip!

I would like to comment on something you mentioned: trying to use points to fly return.

When searching for flights, be certain you are selecting "multi city", which means "open jaw" flights and fares. Meaning you want to fly into one city and out of another. Don't make the mistake of booking two, one way fares, using $ or points!

Sometimes the airlines limit how you can use your points. On my last trip I couldn't do an open jaw flight using my FF miles on Delta. I had to go round trip in and out of the same major city.

Anyway, check to see if it would make more sense to use your points for some of your family round trip vs. on the return only for all of you if you don't have enough for round trip for all. I have no experience with using points for a group so I'm not familiar personally.

Don't use a tour. You will get more for your money and more of the type of trip you want if you do the research and get help here.

Personally, for a 3 week trip, I would do one less destination.
Overall, I think your plan is very good if it accomplishes what your family wants.

Do a more detailed plan that shows transportation time between destination as well as what you want to do and see in each location and when those sights, etc. are open! That will help a lot in deciding if you have the right amount of time in each place, or if you don't - and need to cut back- for this trip.

I have done 6 trips with the help of Fodorites and all went very well. You can too!

Happy planning - it's half the fun!

Glad you liked my suggestion to take the train. Not everyone is willing to try it. Also not having a car means you don't need to find parking at your lodgings.

In your follow-up post you mentioned some of your frustrations with planning a trip like this. You've already come a long way. You have already brainstormed the key destinations you want to see and you gave us approximate number of days.

For me, the next step is the critical one. I print out some blank copies of a monthly calendar--if possible, I enlarge the boxes. I use that to take notes on at my desk and then I put my ideas onto the computer version. I like the computer version because I often end up emailing it back and forth to the other adults who are helping plan the trip. Even my husband--he may have time to look at it during lunch when I'm not there.

I like to highlight in yellow the days that I am moving from one destination to another.

Next, I decide where we want to sleep and I start hunting for lodgings. If I am up in the air about whether to stay in Sorrento or Positano, sometimes I find a great lodging and that will make my decision easier.

Regarding those highlighted transit days: There's a tendency to overschedule how much you will accomplish in a day and especially on the transit days. Also you can compare the number of nights you are on the move versus the days you are staying put.

Trains yes for large cities but in that Agrotourismo place for 4 days maybe rent a car and tool around Tuscany - drive over to Pisa to see the Leaning Tower - to other hill towns, etc.

Then return car and hop back on trains.

Parisien apartments are not large - the average is about 35 square meters all told. Someone will be sleeping on a fold-out couch and you'll have to re-arrange the furniture - maybe both teens will have to sleep on the couch.
You will not have 2 or 3 bedrooms if your budget is not a healthy one.
A kitchen in Paris may be an afterthought, because so many people just have a dorm-sized refrigerator (a tiny freezer) and a maybe a sort of electric hot plate. Many people eat out or go to friends' houses.

For just 5 nights' stay, the owner may prefer to have someone who will stay at least a week. You may risk a last-minute cancellation.

Citadines is the best option, if you want a kitchen.

Citadines has rooms that sleep 4 people in real beds, too.

thanks for the replies. I love the calendar idea. I am working on it right now:) Once I finish I think that will help a lot to decide how to make adjustments. Thanks again for the great replies.

For paris we would like to stay somewhere that is a safe area and has lots to do or at least is close to transit. Any suggestions? We stayed in New York on holiday last year and the subway system was a dream and gave more options of places to stay that were more economical. I have heard the transit system in Paris is good. On one hand I like the idea of staying in walking distance to a lot of touristy things but not sure if we can afford it. I am hoping to keep the hotels to under $300 Canadian/night which is about $200 euro.

Metro in Paris serves everywhere -they say no place more than 400 metres from a metro station. But Paris is also very walkable with most famous sights in a compact area. So if farther out a simple short metro ride in then on foot.

Some arrondissement of Paris are better than others for Metro access and being able to walk to most sights found in guidebooks. I prefer to stay in the arr. 1 through 5, others would add 6, but I find both 7th & 8th inconvenient. Never stayed in 9-13, and while I like 14, don't think it is what you are looking for. The 18 is popular but I find it quite inconvenient. Can't speak to the other arr. as places to stay and be a tourist.

Yes the 1st arr is centrally located but practically devoid of real local neighborhoods - I'd rather stay farther out and have quintessentially French boulangeries and cafes and street markets - some of those are close enough to be walkable for folks who like to walk (such as Bastille area).

The 11th or the 12th arrondissements might be good for you, but if you require a quad room, you might have to up your budget, or get two rooms.
Otherwise, I'd go with the chain hotels, such as Ibis, Accor, or Mercure, which are family-friendly.

<i> I have been searching for hotels in Rome and it is frustrating because it will say sleeps 4 but then you look at the room choices and there is only 3 beds?? </i>

How are you searching?

Anyway, if a hotel claims to sleep four, but has only 3 beds, it may mean that one bed is a double bed. This can often be changed, because in Italy a double bed is often two single beds pushed together, so they can be separated easily.

I use www.booking.com to find hotels in Rome (where I go often). If you enter in the options box "1 room" and "4 people" you will be shown only lodgings that actually sleep four people and they will show you which kinds of beds there are. Some will be hotels, and some will be apartments. There is also a category called "suites", which usually have a separate sleeping space and living space, usually with rudimentary kitchen facilities. I would suggest entering your destination as "Rome center city" instead of just "Rome", to avoid lodgings that are far from the center. If you want to be in a specific area or near a specific place, you can enter your destination as, for example, "Rome Trevi Fountain", or "Rome Trastevere".

I can recommend the Citadines at Richard Lenoir - near the Bastille open-air market. A friend stayed there and liked it very much.
Also has individually-controlled air-conditioning, a kitchen and 4 real beds.
Very good transportation options - including 5 Metro stations and a few bus lines.

There are plenty of high quality boulangeries in the 1st arr., as well as the Rue Montorgueil market. And no end of historic or trendy cafes, bars, bistros. One might prefer to be less in the absolute center of the tourist zone, or in a more budget friendly or quieter spot, but the 1st arr. doesn't lack bakeries, cafes or markets, and it is so easy to get to the 2d and other arr. from there, on foot or by metro.

https://parisbymouth.com/paris-bakeries/

http://www.atasteoftravelblog.com/ru...rgueil-market/

http://www.foodandwine.com/blogs/par...rrondissements

Sounds like a great trip. You may be interested in my travel blog at https://wordpress.com/view/travelfam.wordpress.com Good information and travel advice from our trips to Paris, Nice, Florence, Venice, Rome, the Amalfi Coast, Austria, Prague and other places.