Facing the pain and trauma of history
Jun 10th, 2017, 10:18 AM
#21
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Just to be clear, I wasn't trying to start a "who is more persecuted than who" or "who is more to blame than who" discussion. I suspect that all nations and all peoples at some time have done horrific things to others. The important thing to me is that when the realization finally comes that what happened was not right - that the trauma, whatever it was, not be disappeared but be discussed and understood so that we can all learn from it. The US for sure has a long way to go in this regard.
I was equally distressed in Portugal that amongst the many museums we went to that celebrated (rightfully) their glorious seafaring and exploration history, we saw no discussion of the impact on the indiginous peoples of the Americas as the result of all this exploration. There is much to be proud of, also much to take responsibility for - what I call a "both and".
anyway, kudos to Cordoba for coming to terms with their past, and I am curious as to what I will encounter elsewhere in Spain
I was equally distressed in Portugal that amongst the many museums we went to that celebrated (rightfully) their glorious seafaring and exploration history, we saw no discussion of the impact on the indiginous peoples of the Americas as the result of all this exploration. There is much to be proud of, also much to take responsibility for - what I call a "both and".
anyway, kudos to Cordoba for coming to terms with their past, and I am curious as to what I will encounter elsewhere in Spain
Jun 10th, 2017, 04:54 PM
#23
I vowed never to return to Germany due to a lack of acceptance for their crimes in WWII. I had only traveled in Bavaria, It was difficult to find WWII sites.
Then I visited Berlin after some persuation. . Memorials to victims of the Holocaust were seen around the city. The guilt of their ancestors' crimes was visible. I did a complete turn around about Germany.
Then I visited Berlin after some persuation. . Memorials to victims of the Holocaust were seen around the city. The guilt of their ancestors' crimes was visible. I did a complete turn around about Germany.
Jun 10th, 2017, 05:07 PM
#24
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Just to be clear myself, I wasn't posting about "who has been more persecuted". Clearly the perscution has been equal and equally painful to the human beings involved.'
I was posting about situations that are ongoing one can actually do something about -- stop the persecution, stop the driving people from their homes, stop the pain -- and ones where all one can do is put up a plaque.
True, I'm assuming that the motive for puttng up a plaque is to prevent presecution from happening NOW, not just to remember. Hope I'm not wrong about that.
I was also not singling out the US. Actually, I was sngling out Israel, which many people are frightened to criticize, but Israel policies would not be what they are without the complicity of the US and the UK. Since this is an English-speaking website mainly, I wanted to draw attention to the fact that if you want to end persecution of people, there is something to be done about that in one's own voting, a voice that coule be raised.
Germany and Japan have done remarkable work in facing up honestly to persecution that their societies fomented and afflicted on other human beings. It shows it can be done. Hope Israelis will take a hard look at themselves.
I was posting about situations that are ongoing one can actually do something about -- stop the persecution, stop the driving people from their homes, stop the pain -- and ones where all one can do is put up a plaque.
True, I'm assuming that the motive for puttng up a plaque is to prevent presecution from happening NOW, not just to remember. Hope I'm not wrong about that.
I was also not singling out the US. Actually, I was sngling out Israel, which many people are frightened to criticize, but Israel policies would not be what they are without the complicity of the US and the UK. Since this is an English-speaking website mainly, I wanted to draw attention to the fact that if you want to end persecution of people, there is something to be done about that in one's own voting, a voice that coule be raised.
Germany and Japan have done remarkable work in facing up honestly to persecution that their societies fomented and afflicted on other human beings. It shows it can be done. Hope Israelis will take a hard look at themselves.
Jun 10th, 2017, 05:57 PM
#25
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To be even more clear:
If you start a thread by writing "I am Jewish, and Spain is a country that was both one of the most celebrated centers of Jewish culture and learning, and also the site of much trauma and death"
then doesn't it bother you that trauma and death are being inflicted on actual living people and families in the name of creating a "Jewish homeland" -- ? That the intolerance in Israel against Palestinian people and anyone who speaks up on their behalf is just as lethal and cruel today as anything that happened in Cordoba hundreds of years ago?
This is being done in the name of Jewish people. Why don't Jewish people who grieve about the pain and trauma of history make it their priority to devote their energy to defeating this present-day cruelty?
You seem to be asking people to face a painful set of long-ago events. If you really care about the horrors bigotry can wreak on victims, if you really understand that pain, woudn't your voice and your energy be better spent engaging those who try to silence critics of the rotten treatment of Palestinians with accusations of "anti-Semitism"--?
I can't begin a sentence or a post "I am Jewish", and therefore a lot of Israelis and their supporters who victimize Palenstinians will never listen to me. But maybe they would listen to you if you said that you are Jewish and that made you understand the pain of those crushed by bigotry. Maybe you could change something I can't.
It's not acceptable to face a future where all we do is put up plaques and posts remembering the victims of injustice, bigotry, crueltly, hatred. It's not enough. If we have a chance to save today's families, today's victims, today's despised, then that's where we should be applying energy & words & assigning importance.
I want the next generation to never feel they ought to be putting up a plaque for the people whose lives they ruined.
If you start a thread by writing "I am Jewish, and Spain is a country that was both one of the most celebrated centers of Jewish culture and learning, and also the site of much trauma and death"
then doesn't it bother you that trauma and death are being inflicted on actual living people and families in the name of creating a "Jewish homeland" -- ? That the intolerance in Israel against Palestinian people and anyone who speaks up on their behalf is just as lethal and cruel today as anything that happened in Cordoba hundreds of years ago?
This is being done in the name of Jewish people. Why don't Jewish people who grieve about the pain and trauma of history make it their priority to devote their energy to defeating this present-day cruelty?
You seem to be asking people to face a painful set of long-ago events. If you really care about the horrors bigotry can wreak on victims, if you really understand that pain, woudn't your voice and your energy be better spent engaging those who try to silence critics of the rotten treatment of Palestinians with accusations of "anti-Semitism"--?
I can't begin a sentence or a post "I am Jewish", and therefore a lot of Israelis and their supporters who victimize Palenstinians will never listen to me. But maybe they would listen to you if you said that you are Jewish and that made you understand the pain of those crushed by bigotry. Maybe you could change something I can't.
It's not acceptable to face a future where all we do is put up plaques and posts remembering the victims of injustice, bigotry, crueltly, hatred. It's not enough. If we have a chance to save today's families, today's victims, today's despised, then that's where we should be applying energy & words & assigning importance.
I want the next generation to never feel they ought to be putting up a plaque for the people whose lives they ruined.
Jun 10th, 2017, 11:40 PM
#26
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frencharmoire, perhaps your thoughts would be more appropriate on the Palestine and Israel forums - these are just my musings, not an invitation for political debate (note this is a trip report and a travel forum)
Jun 11th, 2017, 12:06 AM
#27
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"coming to terms with their past" is in general a major and very heated subject in Spain. The transition to democracy
after Franco occured under a so called "pact of forgetting" where one "forgot" about the more than 2000 mass graves all across the country with more than 100 000 Franco regime victims from the Civil War and the dictatorship. https://www.theguardian.com/commenti.../comment.spain
Now the "Ghosts of Spain" are coming back. Recommend this book for anyone interested in Spain and how history haunts the present: https://www.theguardian.com/books/20...uardianreview9
after Franco occured under a so called "pact of forgetting" where one "forgot" about the more than 2000 mass graves all across the country with more than 100 000 Franco regime victims from the Civil War and the dictatorship. https://www.theguardian.com/commenti.../comment.spain
Now the "Ghosts of Spain" are coming back. Recommend this book for anyone interested in Spain and how history haunts the present: https://www.theguardian.com/books/20...uardianreview9
Jun 11th, 2017, 12:54 AM
#28
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First, I am glad that lauramsgarden wrote about the matter.
Travel means different things to different people, but most do not go beyond the superficial aspects. Most people like to think of their vacations as happy and do not want reality to permeate those two weeks.
And while you do not want to contentious political discussions to occur, current and past politics are as relevant to knowing about the soul of a country as their buildings and paintings. Something that is rarely discussed unless it about the traveler's personal safety.
It is the rare European country which did not exile, torture, kill, or persecute the Jews at some time or other. The word ghetto is from when the Jews were segregated in Venice, for example.
Some recognize their ugly past (and that includes matters beyond Antisemitism), others not.
The Spanish have left a wake of destruction around the world as a residue from their colonial days that still have effects today. Los Reyes Católicos, Isabella and Ferdinand, planted the seeds for the demise of the Spanish Empire due to their myopic prejudice.
But as Kimhe pointed out, the Spanish are yet haunted by their own civil war, which ended almost 80 years ago and few participants are still alive. Some on these boards, do not want to discuss whether it is morally correct to visit the The Valle de los Caídos, The Valley of the Fallen, which was built primarily with slave labor. As a honest discussion will dampen their vacation.
As someone who has debated Israel with Spanish intellectuals, it is a most uncomfortable situation and goes beyond the facts. Emotion destroys the nuance. And the way
frencharmoire speaks about the Israeli situation with self-righteous indignation is common and bubbles with hypocrisy. And one I have more problems with Israel with other progressives than other issue. And while I do not like the policies of the present day Israeli regime, people like frencharmoire, always fail to mention the treatment of women, gays, the lack of universal education, the willingness of being part of a larger Middle Eastern proxy war, and the cuddling of Hamas and Hezbollah, etc. by their neighbors and speak of Israel as it exists in a vacuum.
I am hopeful that this discussion will lead others to learn more about the history (and the literature and culture) of which they are about to visit beyond the guide books,the guides, and the etiquette for dining. And it is greatly appreciated by the people of every nation when a visitor takes the time to learn about that country.
Travel means different things to different people, but most do not go beyond the superficial aspects. Most people like to think of their vacations as happy and do not want reality to permeate those two weeks.
And while you do not want to contentious political discussions to occur, current and past politics are as relevant to knowing about the soul of a country as their buildings and paintings. Something that is rarely discussed unless it about the traveler's personal safety.
It is the rare European country which did not exile, torture, kill, or persecute the Jews at some time or other. The word ghetto is from when the Jews were segregated in Venice, for example.
Some recognize their ugly past (and that includes matters beyond Antisemitism), others not.
The Spanish have left a wake of destruction around the world as a residue from their colonial days that still have effects today. Los Reyes Católicos, Isabella and Ferdinand, planted the seeds for the demise of the Spanish Empire due to their myopic prejudice.
But as Kimhe pointed out, the Spanish are yet haunted by their own civil war, which ended almost 80 years ago and few participants are still alive. Some on these boards, do not want to discuss whether it is morally correct to visit the The Valle de los Caídos, The Valley of the Fallen, which was built primarily with slave labor. As a honest discussion will dampen their vacation.
As someone who has debated Israel with Spanish intellectuals, it is a most uncomfortable situation and goes beyond the facts. Emotion destroys the nuance. And the way
frencharmoire speaks about the Israeli situation with self-righteous indignation is common and bubbles with hypocrisy. And one I have more problems with Israel with other progressives than other issue. And while I do not like the policies of the present day Israeli regime, people like frencharmoire, always fail to mention the treatment of women, gays, the lack of universal education, the willingness of being part of a larger Middle Eastern proxy war, and the cuddling of Hamas and Hezbollah, etc. by their neighbors and speak of Israel as it exists in a vacuum.
I am hopeful that this discussion will lead others to learn more about the history (and the literature and culture) of which they are about to visit beyond the guide books,the guides, and the etiquette for dining. And it is greatly appreciated by the people of every nation when a visitor takes the time to learn about that country.
Jun 11th, 2017, 01:41 AM
#29
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lauramsgarden.
My comments are perfectly appropriate to this or any discussion of people telling an incomplete history, one that makes whole groups of people disappear. You make NO mention of the millions of Muslims in Spain who were driven out. They don't exist in your story. Why? Why are you trying to get rid of people in your thread who push back at an attempt to impose a false narrative on Spanish and European history that makes one group visible but makes others who suffered equally disappear?
Iamdonehere,
Your remarks distort what I wrote. Furthermore, to try to paint Israel as some lovely society that supports human rights and honest education furthers a tremendous lie for which there is no excuse. None. Is there no end to this fingerpointing outward and no self-examination? There is a lot of blather in this thread pretending that people are giving some improved and truthful reading of history. It's BS. They want to tell their partial truths and wholesale lies, and show off an attitude of superiority. The idea that Americans of all people would undertake this project really deserves laughter as much as anything. Here's hoping you and lauramsgarden read more history before you go on your next trips abroad and get over yourselves.
My comments are perfectly appropriate to this or any discussion of people telling an incomplete history, one that makes whole groups of people disappear. You make NO mention of the millions of Muslims in Spain who were driven out. They don't exist in your story. Why? Why are you trying to get rid of people in your thread who push back at an attempt to impose a false narrative on Spanish and European history that makes one group visible but makes others who suffered equally disappear?
Iamdonehere,
Your remarks distort what I wrote. Furthermore, to try to paint Israel as some lovely society that supports human rights and honest education furthers a tremendous lie for which there is no excuse. None. Is there no end to this fingerpointing outward and no self-examination? There is a lot of blather in this thread pretending that people are giving some improved and truthful reading of history. It's BS. They want to tell their partial truths and wholesale lies, and show off an attitude of superiority. The idea that Americans of all people would undertake this project really deserves laughter as much as anything. Here's hoping you and lauramsgarden read more history before you go on your next trips abroad and get over yourselves.
Jun 11th, 2017, 02:25 AM
#30
nicely put, IMDonehere. The Israeli-Palestinian situation is far too nuanced to be discussed on a travel forum.
Frencharmoire - last time I looked there was plenty of evidence of the presence of the Muslims in Spain and it is rightly celebrated. It is after all a Muslim monument that the vast majority of visitors to Spain want to see, and no secret is made of its origins nor of the fate of the civilisation that built it.
To suggest that Laura is somehow trying to airbrush that out because she understandably wanted to focus on the fate of her own ancestors, which is far less acknowledged or remembered is a gross distortion of what she was saying.
Frencharmoire - last time I looked there was plenty of evidence of the presence of the Muslims in Spain and it is rightly celebrated. It is after all a Muslim monument that the vast majority of visitors to Spain want to see, and no secret is made of its origins nor of the fate of the civilisation that built it.
To suggest that Laura is somehow trying to airbrush that out because she understandably wanted to focus on the fate of her own ancestors, which is far less acknowledged or remembered is a gross distortion of what she was saying.
Jun 11th, 2017, 02:36 AM
#31
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frencharmoire,
It has of course sadly been proven much to often that selective forgetting and remembering is very effective, not least in Spanish history both when it comes to Jews, Muslims, Gitanos, African slaves in the South and now the Franco victims in the mass graves. History is a powerful weapon againts all this selective forgetting and remebering.
Then no wonder that the Law on Historical Memory, which the socialist government introduced in 2007, has been highly politicized from day one and is now more or less put under the carpet by the conservative government. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...ra-394552.html
It has of course sadly been proven much to often that selective forgetting and remembering is very effective, not least in Spanish history both when it comes to Jews, Muslims, Gitanos, African slaves in the South and now the Franco victims in the mass graves. History is a powerful weapon againts all this selective forgetting and remebering.
Then no wonder that the Law on Historical Memory, which the socialist government introduced in 2007, has been highly politicized from day one and is now more or less put under the carpet by the conservative government. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...ra-394552.html
Jun 11th, 2017, 06:11 AM
#32
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frechie
The idea that Americans of all people would undertake this project really deserves laughter as much as anything. Here's hoping you and lauramsgarden read more history before you go on your next trips abroad and get over yourselves.
___________________________
Your prejudice and self-righteousness indignation knows no bounds.
I do not know whether you are French or a Francophile, but it is that attitude which has led French Jews to leave the country at the highest rate since WWII.
The idea that Americans of all people would undertake this project really deserves laughter as much as anything. Here's hoping you and lauramsgarden read more history before you go on your next trips abroad and get over yourselves.
___________________________
Your prejudice and self-righteousness indignation knows no bounds.
I do not know whether you are French or a Francophile, but it is that attitude which has led French Jews to leave the country at the highest rate since WWII.
Jun 12th, 2017, 06:51 AM
#33
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appreciate the support Kimhe, IMDonehere and Annhig. We are both very interested in history and read as much as we could prior to arriving. We will be taking a Spanish Civil War tour from Barcelona and visiting some of the sites of the battles and atrocities. As I said before, all people have suffered and all peoples have perpetrated suffering. My musings were more honoring the attempts that we saw to confront the past in Spain in contrast to what seemed a total obliviousness in Portugal three years ago. Today in the Cathedral in Sevilla the guide spoke of the expulsion and the persecution of both Jews and Muslims by the Catholic monarchs - her take was that it was financially motivated to fund Columbus's journeys!
Jun 12th, 2017, 02:39 PM
#34
Today in the Cathedral in Sevilla the guide spoke of the expulsion and the persecution of both Jews and Muslims by the Catholic monarchs - her take was that it was financially motivated to fund Columbus's journeys!>>
Laura - that might well have been one of the motives, but I seem to remember from my A level history many years ago that Isabella in particular was extremely "religious" that is to say highly intolerant of non-Christians so she was a driving force in the persecution of Jews and Muslims. Of course she was a product of her time but it is difficult to understand how you can be praying to a merciful God one minute and organising the wholesale torture of your fellow human beings the next.
[I hope that doesn't spark more controversy!]
Laura - that might well have been one of the motives, but I seem to remember from my A level history many years ago that Isabella in particular was extremely "religious" that is to say highly intolerant of non-Christians so she was a driving force in the persecution of Jews and Muslims. Of course she was a product of her time but it is difficult to understand how you can be praying to a merciful God one minute and organising the wholesale torture of your fellow human beings the next.
[I hope that doesn't spark more controversy!]
Jun 13th, 2017, 04:40 AM
#35
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@annhig <<Of course she was a product of her time but it is difficult to understand how you can be praying to a merciful God one minute and organising the wholesale torture of your fellow human beings the next>>
she was also a woman wanting power and I think a lot of the decision was greed and maintaining control of a society they had only recently overrun. I say it was political power first, and religious second....though at that time, the Church controlled a lot of the politics as well. If it wasn't power, then why did they also build churches over mosques, or inside mosques? It hits the common man where they felt the most emotionally protected. Dissolving places of worship underminds the masses.....IMHO.
she was also a woman wanting power and I think a lot of the decision was greed and maintaining control of a society they had only recently overrun. I say it was political power first, and religious second....though at that time, the Church controlled a lot of the politics as well. If it wasn't power, then why did they also build churches over mosques, or inside mosques? It hits the common man where they felt the most emotionally protected. Dissolving places of worship underminds the masses.....IMHO.
Jun 13th, 2017, 07:45 AM
#36
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Annhig and quiltingmamma, I think you both have wisdom. I have to admit that after this trip and the reading I've been doing I'm having a hard time seeing Isabella as the romantic figure she is portrayed in American history books. and she was a product of her time, and there were an awful lot of folk who agreed with her. Today visiting a beautiful convent I was struck by the dialectic/contrast between how healing and beautiful faith can be, and how destructive and cruel it can be as well.
Jun 13th, 2017, 08:10 AM
#37
After my first trip to Spain, Isabella was no longer a romantic figure, but rather a diabolical one. I actually remember having a nightmare while in Spain that Isabella La Catolica was coming after me because I am Protestant!
Religions often are filled with so much intolerance. Look at the Catholic and Protestant violence in N.Ireland and all the horrors in the Middle East, Sunni vs Shiite, the Crusades, etc.
Religions often are filled with so much intolerance. Look at the Catholic and Protestant violence in N.Ireland and all the horrors in the Middle East, Sunni vs Shiite, the Crusades, etc.
