I think it is often true that luxury can "remove" one from the cultural experience. For me, the draw of luxury is that even though it is many more times the price, one is usually guaranteed to have a comfortable, pleasant stay with lots of amenities. A wonderful experience is also possible for much less money, but I think it takes a lot more research and planning. That is where places like this forum are so helpful. I think that type of "find" is much more satisfying and memorable, so my thanks go out to all the contributors to this site.

"It has been my experience that cheap is often more authentic. Not as good, but more authentic."

I always laugh at condescending, arrogant statements like this. I once went to a Columbian reaturantin Chicago that came highly recommended as "authentic." It was. Dinner was a piece of bone with some gristle on it.

I don't care a farthing about authentic. Poverty, crime, lousy food, hotels without good plumbing etc are often authentic. Who died and made this poster god to decide that authentic is the ultimate criterion for everything. I want good. Authentic food, hotels, etc are often appalling. If you don't believe me, just try some of Rick Steves recommendations.

Like most people, I travel to have a good time. And like most people, I have my own idea of what consitututes a good time. Rick Steves doesn't, so no one needs any snob like him (or many of the posters here) pontificating that I am a shallow and worthless person if I don't judge every experience by the golden authenticity criterion and that enjoying a nice hotel is a sign moral corruption.

Too many people are y bullied by the culture Nazis. They spend many tedious hours and boring museums, eat swill, etc. that they would never consider doing at home because the culture Nazis tell them that it's authentic. The best adice on travel is, if you wouldn't do it at home, don't do it in Rome. If you don't normally go to museums or operas, climb through broken down ruins, eat cheap food or stay in crummy hotels when you can afford better, there is no reason to start when you travel abroad. Do what you like and the Rick Steves be darned.

Platzer, I can tolerate your intolerant post, but I must say that your use of the word "Nazi" is extremely offensive. What happened during that regime is an intolerable human tragedy, and the use of that word minimizes it. Find another offensive description please.

Think you're over reacting a little there platzer? There have been some very good arguments made for both sides of this issue. But in defense of the Rick Steves/Arthur Frommer philosophy - many people who have not traveled much are afraid that if they don't spend a lot of money on a hotel they will get truely discusting accomodataions. That obviously is not true and Rick/Arthur etc are just trying to point that out to people who don't know that. Also, since not everyone has unlimited money to spend on travel, spending less each night on a hotel, can not only be enjoyable and comfortable but can mean the difference between a one week vacation and a two week one, or between one trip a year or two, etc. I know a lot of people who once they discovered the joys of staying in nice but less expensive accomodations said if they had know that earlier they would have made a lot more trips.

The rest of platzer comments are ridiculous. Of course most of Americans don't spend a lot of time "climbing around broken down ruins" at home. We haven't got any! And many people live in rural areas that are not blessed with great museums. THAT's why we do those things when we go to Europe, not because we are afraid we'll be considered shallow if we don't. Perhaps this thread has touched a nerve with some people.

Marcy:

God love you!

I got a headache whenever I USED to TRY and watch the terribly dressed "Rick" on very expensive commercial TV, try and tell me about "his" thrifty and sometimes senseless way of travel...

Good lord!

I am so not in college trying to haul a tiny backpack around Europe...I am so not into finding meals for $1.00 and drinking the water vs. ordering a vacation cocktail!

I am so not into sharing a toilet, sink or grimy shower, at cheap lodging, with goodness knows who so that I can be EXPOSED to lord knows what and I will tell you it is not the same "culture" that you are posting about...

I was reduced to tears and depression when I bought my first and last Frommers Budget Travel Magazine...how low can you go?

Marcy:

Cheaper is simply cheaper. Nothing more and nothing less.

Expensive is simply expensive.
Nothing more and nothing less.

When my hubby and I travel or when I travel period, I am like you in some ways. I also like a good bargin for the things that I want to do.

Rick needs to see how far he would get without the "wall" that he has built within this multi-billion dollar travel industry.

Gotta give him "credit" for his niche marketing but, ole Rick wouldn't know nothing about MONEY right???

BLAST AWAY!!!!

A "Rick" free...OAKTOWN TRAVELER

A slightly different twist on this, one that has nothing to do with cheap vs. expensive:

I live in a city that is moderately popular with tourists. When I lived in the tourist district, I found them very annoying. I'd be trying rushing home from the dry cleaners with an armful of clothes and a full bladder and they'd stop me for directions to the Liberty Bell (Maybe that was a facade, though. Maybe they were looking for an opportunity to interact with a "colorful local&quot.

We have since moved to a neighborhood that's a little off the beaten track, but still gets those faux-trolleys full of tourists. It is so strange to be sitting outside at a neighborhood cafe as one of those things goes by and have all the people on it snapping pictures and taking videos. I feel a bit like an anthropological study (the middle-class Philadelphian at brunch) and start to worry about my hair.

I'm curious, when Rick Steves and his minions travel to a second or third world country, like India or parts of Africa, can they only experience the culture by living in the same level of abject poverty that many locals experience?

Well - a lot of interesting replies. Interesting to me in that some people really think the choice is between a large "luxury" hotel and some squalid squat with one bathroom for 50 people. I have personally never used one of Rick Steves guidebooks but the sentiment expressed in the original post certainly tallies with my experiences and feelings. The most expensive place I ever stayed at was the dirtiest and unfriendliest. The cheapest place I ever stayed at was bizarre but friendly. Mostly I stay at places that are nice, small and family run. The most incredible place I ever stayed was a 16th century farmhouse B&B near the Welsh border. The bathtub was practically big enough to do lengths in. Tons of fluffy towels were available and there was a heated towel rack. We were in our own wing of the house with windows on 3 sides and glorious views. Our hosts were friendly and helpful, willing to arrange anything from horseback riding to hiking tours. Breakfast was delicious. Oh and it cost half as much as "dirty and unfriendly" and was only slightly more expensive than "bizarre". I think everyone should travel in the manner they are most comfortable with but really the choice is NOT between incredible luxury and incredible squalidness. For me personally, smaller and cheaper has generally been a good choice. However, I have never sacrificed comfort to save a couple of dollars. By the same token, I have never wasted money on "luxuries" that were not important to me.

First, praise be that topics this provocative have a place here.

Second, regarding Rick Steves, it's important to track his messages over the years. He's come some way from the early "back door" mentality that was, IMO, remarkably condescending - not just to the Europeans who tended to fall into a value system that included a bit of the old "poverty is picturesque" mentality, but also to his readers, who were supposed to balk at American-style lodging, food, etc. because it was somehow "inauthentic" in Europe. As if take-out fish and chips were invented in Edmonds. Here in the Seattle area we get to see him 24/7 everytime the local PBS station does a fundraiser (which is more or less continuously.) He's matured quite a lot and doesn't seen as insistent on looking for places that are faves over on the Thorn Tree.

But the big sin in my book is the sin of oversimplification. Cheaper is more authentic? Okay, does that mean you should run to the McDonalds in Paris? Small towns vs. big cities for "authenticity?" Exhibit A: Cinque Terre. 290,000 pages on Google, Lord knows how many postings on this forum. About as "back door" as Orlando.

If you feel you want to get in touch with the local culture, which part? Hooligans at football matches? Turkish guest workers? Portuguese traffic cops? (Oh wait - they're all having naps.) No, the fact is that Europe is way, way too big, diverse, changing, to allow any broad-brush "strategies" to get in touch with more than anything that that which is in front of you.

Ya pick and ya choose, and that's the beauty of it. There's plenty left to see the next time, and, except for the odd painting or statue or church, much will have changed in the meantime.

I do agree with a couple of things mentioned earlier. First, learn something of the language if you can. That will open many more doors than simply staying in one-star places or eating at truckstops.

Second, do a little homework before you go, and not just the story of the Renaissance or the Napoleonic wars. What are the political or social issues of the day in (name your country)? What does it say in the morning papers? Who's fighting for a place in the Cup finals? Now <i>those</i> are the things that will get the talking going, even if the vocabulary is limited.

Poverty is more authentic than luxury?

Countries usually have both.

I think I would rather experience luxury. Reading all the posts here over the years about your very, very expensive hand bags and shoes, luxury suites, etc. I know that alot of you are in agreement.

And maybe some of you just don't feel as comfortable in luxurious places, which can be understandable.

Ah, the &quot;upper crust&quot; reminded me of the origins of that phrase:

In the old days, they'd toss the dough in the dirty oven. The bottom of the bread when baked would be covered with oven soot, so the bread had to be cut. The upper non-sooty part went to the &quot;upper crust&quot;, while the help had to be satisfied with the lower, sooty part and be content with having gritty soot with their bread.

Moi? Oh, I use EVERYTHING, from Rick Steves to Lonely Planet to Fodors to Karen Brown to Cadogan's. Mostly, tho, I like to be in friendly B&amp;Bs in Europe. It's has always been a wonderful experience in B&amp;Bs, whereas big European hotels are pretty indifferent places for me, knowing that I wouldn't be there in several days.

In Asia, I like to be in the luxury hotels. I like the service in the expensive Asian hotels better than anywhere else in the world that I've been.

And I'll talk to anyone who'll talk with me. gualalalisa, when in Mendocino, I'll look you up in your market/bar!

I'm probably most in agreement with what St Cirq, crazymina (who's not as crazy as her name implies), and JMM have posted here. Platzer's post I didn't understand at all; the difference between &quot;good&quot; and &quot;authentic&quot; seemed to be nothing more than semantic quibbling.

Yes, I agree with learning a bit of the local language. I have a basic vocabulary for every foreign language I need to learn: &quot;Hello&quot; &quot;Goodbye&quot; &quot;Thank You&quot; &quot;Please&quot; &quot;Excuse me&quot; &quot;Where is...&quot; and one really good local swear word (&quot;batarde!!!&quot with appropriate hand gesture. Haven't had to use the last at all, but you never know...

Funny, every time I think about Rick Steve's saying that I wonder if he still feels that way. It was a great hook at the beginning of his career to encourage people to buy his books. Now that it's worked so very well, I'm sure he wouldn't mind slipping into a nice 4 or 5 star hotel now and again. So the question now is; does he go incognito if he's going out to celebrate something like his next million at a fine restaurant? Or does he just have it delivered to his room?

Followed Rick Steves philosphy on a two week trip to England and Scotland, staying totally at B&amp;Bs and loved it. At our first B&amp;B we told the owners the basic things we wanted to see and asked them to fill in the blanks and suggest a route (we rented a car.) It was the biggest adventure of my life. When we got tired of the car (in York) we turned it in and got on the train to London. Personally, I like to mix a little expensive with a little &quot;cheap&quot; as well as touristy with local culture. But I still spend a lot of money!!!

I think that Steves provides a real service for those who want to travel and somehow think they can't do it by themselves or don't have enough money. His books explain how to get things done easily and cheaply and brings Europe so much closer to them than they would ever expect, and that's a good thing.

However.

I hate his condescending tone, to both his readers and Europeans in general, and his implication that his way is the best and most authentic way to travel, and that anyone who stays at he Marriott is a rube and missing the whole point of a trip to Europe.

I, for one, try to immerse myself in the culture as much as possible, by speaking the language, doing as locals do, etc. And at the end of the day, I want a nice place to relax...where I know what I'm getting, and that means full air conditioning, a large double bed, and a standard of service with which I am familiar. Hence the Marriott. It's a different theory of travel, maybe it's not his way, but it wiorks out fine for me and many others, who only have 2 weeks of vacation a a year and want to have a good time.

I do agree that can B&amp;B's provide a unique experience that other lodgings would be hard pressed to match, and we do occassionally book them, but other than that I don't find his views on accomodations worthwhile...sharing a toilet down the hall is not a cultural event I want to take part in.

I re-read Marcy's post. Her question was: &quot;Does anybody have any ideas for having the maximum cultural exchange without giving up too many comforts?&quot;
I asked several people about this and everyone said pretty much the same thing -- that the individual has to first decide what they are willing, or not willing to give up. Also, if you stay in local luxury hotels, you still experience the culture, just the wealthier part of it. Chances are that by talking to hotel employees (surely locals) you can learn a lot about your locale and get some good tips on where to go and what to see, etc.
If the security of the &quot;known&quot; in lodging is important, better to acknowledge that and find other ways, such as restaurants, to branch out and explore. I always ask the locals for restaurant advice and have rarely regretted it. I guess it really boils down to talking to the people, and you can do that no matter where you stay or how much you pay. You might even find out about some local lodging worth trying when you are feeling adventurous.

One point that hasn't been addressed. When I stay in one of those charming 3 star hotels, I usually find that all the other guests are also American, or at least from other countries. But when I &quot;splurge&quot; and stay in one of the big chain hotels in a major European city, I find that most of the other guests are European businessmen, often from that country. So I guess in terms of &quot;rubbing elbows&quot; with the locals, I'd have to say that I usually will have more contact with locals at the big, expensive chains.

Rick Steves is no more condescending than some of the posts on this thread. If you can write a more financially successful series of guidebooks than Steves, go right ahead. I have said it before and will say it again: Much of the disdain expressed on travel boards concerning Steves is a result of jealousy.

Now mind you, I am not a fan of his guidebooks, but why all the hullabaloo--unless it is jealousy. Who wouldn't want his life?

I never stay at expensive hotels because I do not spend much time in the hotel on a European trip. All I require is a bed with clean linen and a shower with hot water and pressure. I could care less if the hotel room was furnished with antiques.

I am a veteran of 10 European home exchanges: 2 England, 2 Scotland, 3 Germany and 3 France. By the way, cigalechanta, you can exchange an apartment. You are not required to have a house, just a home. I don't know about your location though.

Home exchange is really the best way I have found to travel in Europe. Your exchange home simply becomes the center for daily day trips to sites in the area. It does, however, require a commitment to stay put (or you will return to spending money in hotels).

People often discuss the upscale restaurants on travel boards (sometimes bragging about the ones they have &quot;checked off&quot. For the record, the only Parisian ones in that category I have eaten in are Pre Catalan (2000) and Jules Verne (1993). By the way, my meal at Jules Verne was before it became the &quot;must eat&quot; it has become on the boards; it was not as good in 1993.

I have friends in Europe who never set foot in restaurants like Taillevant. They regard them as a rip off. Instead they will wax ecstatic about this little place wherever that they &quot;discovered&quot; where you can have a fabulous meal for a reasonable price. Some of my friends are quite well heeled, others not.

If you frequent the deluxe places, you will rub elbows with others with money. For meeting Europeans, there is nothing better than one of those student trips where you stay in hostels and meet kids from all over. Being too old for that sort of trip, my favorite way of traveling is home exchange. Since 9/11/01, however, deals have been difficult to come by. Even though the euro is up and the dollar is down, the reluctance to travel affects people on both sides of the Atlantic.

This year, I gave up on a European home exchange (I did get one in Colorado and have my usual gig in Long Beach, CA, during Christmas). Instead I booked an elderhostel trip to Russia, where it would be difficult to get a home exchange--and where I might not feel entirely comfortable traveling solo the first time. I will be going to Moscow and St. Petersburg during the summer. I cannot tell you where I will be staying, but all the elderhostel trips get good reviews on the elderhostel board (admittedly a new board with few posts).

Elderhostel generally puts you in clean acceptable places but, no, I will not be at the most expensive hotel in Moscow. Since I doubt I will spend much time in the room, who cares?

The trip is focused on the arts and theater. I cannot wait!

And now back to my Pimsler Russian 1 CD's. I doubt I will be discussing Puskin with the locals but I should be able at least to negotiate prices in the shops. Learning even a teeny bit of the language will help you make some contact with the locals--even on a group trip. In any event it does make you feel less dependant.

What an intelligent response, Lauren.

I have read lsk for the past 6-7 years on various boards and she truly has insight!

Now for my thoughts: It is a mistake to speak of seeking the culture of a country. Every country has many cultures. Visit a Wall Street trader in Manhattan and you will get one view of American culture. Visit an Idaho rancher and you will get another view of American culture. Visit me in the Carolina low country and you will get another view. Let's quit searching for the &quot;real&quot; truth. It doesn't exist. Go where you want to go, do what you want to do, spend what you want. Just remember that your experience fits only those who go where you went, did what you did, and spent what you spent.

I am getting ready for my 3rd trip to Europe in the last 5 months. I will also be going later this year. Part of the reason I can go frequently is that I am fortunate to earn 7 paid weeks of vacation a year. The main reason I can do this is I don't waste money staying at 5* hotels.

I prefer quiet B&amp;B's that feel more like your home than an impersonal hotel. The money I have saved in my last 2 visits to London covered the cost of one flight and most of the other. Frequent flier miles are great as well. Two of my eight trips to Europe have been free. And I will be going to New Zealand for free next year.

I don't travel to hang out in hotel rooms. I could care less what picture is hanging on the wall. As long as I have a comfortable clean bed to sleep in I am fine. Whether you pay $500 or $50 a night for a room, they look exactly the same when you turn the light off - dark.

I have got some great tips from Frommer's Budget Travel magazine. OaktownTraveler, I have seen you all over Europe. You are the person standing at the carousel waiting for a half dozen giant suitcases while I walk by with my one carryon and am off exploring Europe.