Eurostar Update: German Trains Picked for New Chunnel Trains...
Oct 8th, 2010, 07:54 AM
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Eurostar Update: German Trains Picked for New Chunnel Trains...
and sacrilege says the French Government, which ironically is the majority stakeholder in the Eurostar company (which runs trains London to Paris/Brussels thru the Chunnel). And adding insult to injury the new trains were designed by an Italian company.
Anyway some interesting details in today's article in the NYTimes:
---10 of siemens sleek new Velaro e320 trains, which beat out a bid by French firm Alstom's A.G.V. trains - the newest generation TGVs.
--- Eurostar thinks they have to prepare to compete against other rail companies who after the current Eurostar monopoly ends in 2012 who will want to compete for Chunnel passengers - such as Germany's Deutsche Bahn, which the article says wants to run thru services London into Germany - and actually this Oct 19 a high-speed German ICE is expected to go thru the Chunnel on a test run and into London
DB plans to carry one million passengers a year via the Channel Rail Tunnel into London from Cologne and Frankfurt.
The Eurostar e320 carries more than 900 passengers at about 200mph vs the current rolling stock of 750 at about 185 mph
Anyway some interesting details in today's article in the NYTimes:
---10 of siemens sleek new Velaro e320 trains, which beat out a bid by French firm Alstom's A.G.V. trains - the newest generation TGVs.
--- Eurostar thinks they have to prepare to compete against other rail companies who after the current Eurostar monopoly ends in 2012 who will want to compete for Chunnel passengers - such as Germany's Deutsche Bahn, which the article says wants to run thru services London into Germany - and actually this Oct 19 a high-speed German ICE is expected to go thru the Chunnel on a test run and into London
DB plans to carry one million passengers a year via the Channel Rail Tunnel into London from Cologne and Frankfurt.
The Eurostar e320 carries more than 900 passengers at about 200mph vs the current rolling stock of 750 at about 185 mph
Oct 8th, 2010, 07:59 AM
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Siemens Wins Battle of Fast Trains - NYTimes.com
Oct 7, 2010 ... They pointed to the fact that the Siemens' trains employ “distributed ... The Channel Tunnel Safety Authority, which advises the French and ...
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/08/bu..../08train.html -
France reacts by claiming the Siemens trains selected by Eurostar do not meet safety standards - a big arguing point in light of recent fires in the Chunnel that stranded some passengers for many hours.
France claims new Eurostar trains are not safe for Channel Tunnel ...
Oct 8, 2010 ... Siemens will carry out a test journey through the Channel Tunnel on October 19 to prove that its trains are safe. ...
http://www.connexionfrance.com/euros...w-article.html
Oct 7, 2010 ... They pointed to the fact that the Siemens' trains employ “distributed ... The Channel Tunnel Safety Authority, which advises the French and ...
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/08/bu..../08train.html -
France reacts by claiming the Siemens trains selected by Eurostar do not meet safety standards - a big arguing point in light of recent fires in the Chunnel that stranded some passengers for many hours.
France claims new Eurostar trains are not safe for Channel Tunnel ...
Oct 8, 2010 ... Siemens will carry out a test journey through the Channel Tunnel on October 19 to prove that its trains are safe. ...
http://www.connexionfrance.com/euros...w-article.html
Oct 8th, 2010, 02:01 PM
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I honestly don't know the full facts about how Eurostar assigned this contract to Siemens.
But the Germans - especially the loudmouths running DB (Europe's most unsafe, and most corruptly supervised, railway company) - really aren't getting themselves any credibility in all this.
The simple truth is that the worst railway accident in Europe in the past 15 years was the result of incompetent maintenance by DB staff on a German high speed train. Whereas in countries that hold public servants accouhtable for their actions there would have been a proper investigation, there's never been a proper investigation of the more than 100 deaths DB caused in 1998. No-one's been fired: no-one's been successfully prosecuted.
Yet in spite of that, DB have the Teutonic arrogance to dismiss UK and French safety standards in the Channel Tunnel as "excessive".
Quite simply: just as Air France and Aeroports de Paris have never been properly investigated for the inept aircraft maintenance that caused the 2000 Concorde crash (ENTIRELY the fault of government-owned operations), the German government hides the crimes of its employees.
And then turns round and complains it's being expected to run operations in Britain to British safety standards.
When DB shows evidence it can run a railway in its own country safely, it might be welcome here.
But it's shown not a scintilla of accepting that its sloppy systems killed 110 people. And its spineless government isn't remotely interested in forcing it to behave responsibly: it's only interested in creating new jobs for Siemens (who are building this deathtrap). And in insisting, as you'd expect from the world centre of racism, that every single Siemens job created is in the Fatherland.
Which is why Siemens is closing profitable UK subsidiaries. In Britain, those businesses would be open to public scrutiny. In Germany, they get away with murder
But the Germans - especially the loudmouths running DB (Europe's most unsafe, and most corruptly supervised, railway company) - really aren't getting themselves any credibility in all this.
The simple truth is that the worst railway accident in Europe in the past 15 years was the result of incompetent maintenance by DB staff on a German high speed train. Whereas in countries that hold public servants accouhtable for their actions there would have been a proper investigation, there's never been a proper investigation of the more than 100 deaths DB caused in 1998. No-one's been fired: no-one's been successfully prosecuted.
Yet in spite of that, DB have the Teutonic arrogance to dismiss UK and French safety standards in the Channel Tunnel as "excessive".
Quite simply: just as Air France and Aeroports de Paris have never been properly investigated for the inept aircraft maintenance that caused the 2000 Concorde crash (ENTIRELY the fault of government-owned operations), the German government hides the crimes of its employees.
And then turns round and complains it's being expected to run operations in Britain to British safety standards.
When DB shows evidence it can run a railway in its own country safely, it might be welcome here.
But it's shown not a scintilla of accepting that its sloppy systems killed 110 people. And its spineless government isn't remotely interested in forcing it to behave responsibly: it's only interested in creating new jobs for Siemens (who are building this deathtrap). And in insisting, as you'd expect from the world centre of racism, that every single Siemens job created is in the Fatherland.
Which is why Siemens is closing profitable UK subsidiaries. In Britain, those businesses would be open to public scrutiny. In Germany, they get away with murder
Oct 8th, 2010, 02:18 PM
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"just as Air France and Aeroports de Paris have never been properly investigated for the inept aircraft maintenance that caused the 2000 Concorde crash (ENTIRELY the fault of government-owned operations)".
You seem to know a lot more than the Courts. Final judgment is expected before the end of the year after 8 years of investigation and a 4-month trial in 2010.
You seem to know a lot more than the Courts. Final judgment is expected before the end of the year after 8 years of investigation and a 4-month trial in 2010.
Oct 8th, 2010, 04:47 PM
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flanneruk: The US loses about 100 people a day to car accidents, can we blaim the car companies or the designers of the roads for these or maybe even the US cause they built them? Not saying any death is acceptable but trains as a whole are incredibly safe.
We trained around on the DB trains and had an enjoyable and safe time. And to my knowledge Siemens is testing the trains in the chunnel to prove they meet current safety standards for the chunnel. If you dislike Germany and their trains you can personally decide not to take them, I however love their train system and love Germany.
We trained around on the DB trains and had an enjoyable and safe time. And to my knowledge Siemens is testing the trains in the chunnel to prove they meet current safety standards for the chunnel. If you dislike Germany and their trains you can personally decide not to take them, I however love their train system and love Germany.
Oct 11th, 2010, 07:19 AM
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<Siemens will carry out a test journey through the Channel Tunnel on October 19 to prove that its trains are safe.
Eurostar director-general Nicolas Petrovic said the Channel Tunnel Safety Authority had agreed six months ago to the technical specifications for the tender, and the new trains met those requirements.>
Well if Eurostar boss says the new Siemens trains meet safety requirements and Siemens test Oct 19 confirms that they do - then they do, do they not? Or else incompetence is the head of Eurostar?
<As well as the new train order, Eurostar will overhaul its existing fleet of 27 trains from next year.>
About time on that as old trains were getting shabby.
Eurostar director-general Nicolas Petrovic said the Channel Tunnel Safety Authority had agreed six months ago to the technical specifications for the tender, and the new trains met those requirements.>
Well if Eurostar boss says the new Siemens trains meet safety requirements and Siemens test Oct 19 confirms that they do - then they do, do they not? Or else incompetence is the head of Eurostar?
<As well as the new train order, Eurostar will overhaul its existing fleet of 27 trains from next year.>
About time on that as old trains were getting shabby.
Oct 12th, 2010, 02:40 AM
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"I honestly don't know the full facts about how Eurostar assigned this contract to Siemens."
It cannot be ruled out that at least some knowledge of facts helps in assessing a situation correctly.
While I do not necessarily disagree that the cessation of the trial against a number of Deutsche Bahn's engineers potentially responsible for the Eschede accident on grounds of keeping the trial economical was sursprising to say the least, I fail to understand its relevance in the context of Eurostar buying trains from Siemens.
Siemens admittedly was the maker of the train that derailed in the Eschede accident, but it was an ICE Mk I model. The Mk I model had two engines, one each at the front and at the back of the train. It was thus configured in the same way the current Eurostar trains made by Alstom are run.
Current safety requirements in the Channel Tunnel apparently require this configuration.
The Siemens trains entered into the tender for the new trains do not comply with this as the Velaro model entered has decentralised engines under each of the waggons.
So far so good - and a confusion over the win of the tender by Siemens appears understandable.
However, incidentally models entered by Alstom into the
tender also are driven by decentralised traction, i.e. not with 1 engine each at the front and the back of the train.
So apparently the tender was between two very similar products, which makes it quite plausible to assume that the winning party was awarded the order on the basis of offering the more economical solution.
Which makes the French government look actually about as nationalistic in its criticism of the outcome of the tender as Siemens would be "racist" as accused by flanneruk (in his instance, BTW, "nationalistic" appears to be the correct term and not "racist" as there should not be a racial difference between Anglo Saxons and Germans - at least to my knowledge. Whereas I would not consider myself an expert on this subject, some might argue that just by ancestry I should have an edge on the particular subject as in the Fatherland that I left surely everybody these days is still very concerned about the racial provenance of people - so much that even a multi-national conglomerate like Siemens allegedly can get away with uneconomical decisions supported by a supposedly racist international shareholder base particpating in a conspiracy against the British and other people).
What Deutsche Bahn's allegedly sloppy seafety standards (mind you, there may well be some truth to this allegation) have to do with the outcome of the Eurostar tender for new trains (Eurostar is controlled by French National Railway SNCF and has minority shareholders from the U.K. and Belgium) remains unclear in the quite verbose, but unfortunately surprisingly confused post by flanner, which clearly is beneath the otherwise high standards of his contributions here on Fodors.
Also see:
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/4fde4870-d...44feabdc0.html
It cannot be ruled out that at least some knowledge of facts helps in assessing a situation correctly.
While I do not necessarily disagree that the cessation of the trial against a number of Deutsche Bahn's engineers potentially responsible for the Eschede accident on grounds of keeping the trial economical was sursprising to say the least, I fail to understand its relevance in the context of Eurostar buying trains from Siemens.
Siemens admittedly was the maker of the train that derailed in the Eschede accident, but it was an ICE Mk I model. The Mk I model had two engines, one each at the front and at the back of the train. It was thus configured in the same way the current Eurostar trains made by Alstom are run.
Current safety requirements in the Channel Tunnel apparently require this configuration.
The Siemens trains entered into the tender for the new trains do not comply with this as the Velaro model entered has decentralised engines under each of the waggons.
So far so good - and a confusion over the win of the tender by Siemens appears understandable.
However, incidentally models entered by Alstom into the
tender also are driven by decentralised traction, i.e. not with 1 engine each at the front and the back of the train.
So apparently the tender was between two very similar products, which makes it quite plausible to assume that the winning party was awarded the order on the basis of offering the more economical solution.
Which makes the French government look actually about as nationalistic in its criticism of the outcome of the tender as Siemens would be "racist" as accused by flanneruk (in his instance, BTW, "nationalistic" appears to be the correct term and not "racist" as there should not be a racial difference between Anglo Saxons and Germans - at least to my knowledge. Whereas I would not consider myself an expert on this subject, some might argue that just by ancestry I should have an edge on the particular subject as in the Fatherland that I left surely everybody these days is still very concerned about the racial provenance of people - so much that even a multi-national conglomerate like Siemens allegedly can get away with uneconomical decisions supported by a supposedly racist international shareholder base particpating in a conspiracy against the British and other people).
What Deutsche Bahn's allegedly sloppy seafety standards (mind you, there may well be some truth to this allegation) have to do with the outcome of the Eurostar tender for new trains (Eurostar is controlled by French National Railway SNCF and has minority shareholders from the U.K. and Belgium) remains unclear in the quite verbose, but unfortunately surprisingly confused post by flanner, which clearly is beneath the otherwise high standards of his contributions here on Fodors.
Also see:
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/4fde4870-d...44feabdc0.html
Oct 12th, 2010, 04:24 AM
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At least the Siemens Velaro trains don't get stopped by the most vicious force of nature known to mankind: "fluffy snow"!! LOL
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/to...cle6963830.ece
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/to...cle6963830.ece
Oct 12th, 2010, 07:30 AM
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Let's see we have French and German train companies competing for the Eurostar bid
Q - Where are the British? why no Brit bid?
A - Back in the dark ages as trains and railways go
Q - Where are the British? why no Brit bid?
A - Back in the dark ages as trains and railways go
Oct 12th, 2010, 11:22 AM
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"...<i>the loudmouths running DB (Europe's most unsafe, and most corruptly supervised, railway company)</i>
"...<i>When DB shows evidence it can run a railway in its own country safely, it might be welcome here</i>..."
"...<i>as you'd expect from the world centre of racism, that every single Siemens job created is in the Fatherland</i>..."
A body in good health needs, among other ingredients, <i>a constant supply of bile</i> to function properly. So the consistently obnoxious posts from flanneruk (he who never lets facts stand in the way of his fiction) are a sign that Fodors is in good health.
"...<i>When DB shows evidence it can run a railway in its own country safely, it might be welcome here</i>..."
"...<i>as you'd expect from the world centre of racism, that every single Siemens job created is in the Fatherland</i>..."
A body in good health needs, among other ingredients, <i>a constant supply of bile</i> to function properly. So the consistently obnoxious posts from flanneruk (he who never lets facts stand in the way of his fiction) are a sign that Fodors is in good health.
Oct 12th, 2010, 11:40 AM
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and any comparison to DB and Britain's hodgepodge of 'privatized railway franchises' shows DB, warts and all, to be far far superior to any of the UK's franchises - singularly or collectively IME - riding British trains takes me back to European trains about 30 years ago - dirty, crowded and endemically not on time.
I do wonder if flimflanneur.co.uk has even set foot on a German train - I would bet a lot of money that he/she/it has not.
To judge the whole nationalized rail system in Germany by some highly publicized goofs is like throwing the baby out with the bathwater IMO.
When will Britain get their own real high-speed rail line (Eurostar Chunnel trains don't count)? Heck there are some being batted about but have been batted about for decades now - whilst Germany and France and practically every other European country - heck EVEN Spain and Italy - have bonafide high-speed rail lines - yet in the UK trains trundle along at about a third of the speed and yet can then often not keep schedule.
I do wonder if flimflanneur.co.uk has even set foot on a German train - I would bet a lot of money that he/she/it has not.
To judge the whole nationalized rail system in Germany by some highly publicized goofs is like throwing the baby out with the bathwater IMO.
When will Britain get their own real high-speed rail line (Eurostar Chunnel trains don't count)? Heck there are some being batted about but have been batted about for decades now - whilst Germany and France and practically every other European country - heck EVEN Spain and Italy - have bonafide high-speed rail lines - yet in the UK trains trundle along at about a third of the speed and yet can then often not keep schedule.
Oct 15th, 2010, 05:45 PM
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PalenQ: Britain's "trundling" trains by and large whip the pants off of the trains we have in the good ol' USA. The few trains.
Maybe France could pass their old TGVs to Britain, and Britain could ship their old trains to the US. Then we'd all be ahead of our current positions.
Except for the (possible) fact that much of their rolling stock was left behind by the British when India gained its independence, I'd even take India's rail system as an upgrade for the USA!
Maybe France could pass their old TGVs to Britain, and Britain could ship their old trains to the US. Then we'd all be ahead of our current positions.
Except for the (possible) fact that much of their rolling stock was left behind by the British when India gained its independence, I'd even take India's rail system as an upgrade for the USA!
