frank

Tax : for years now the polls in the UK have shown that most people actually want their taxes increased, provided the money goes to health & education. <BR>Everybody needs these services, which are arguably not best done for profit. <BR>We have different views & expectations of tax & of the role of government, not only across the Atlantic but across Europe. <BR>The Dutch welfare system Sjoerd talks about can't work in the UK because not enough of us want taxes raised to that level.It really depends on how much you can trust your gov as a service provider. <BR>If you want universal healthcare in the US, private cover will cost a fortune, you will find it hard unless you are willing to increase taxes. <BR>There seems to be a view among some Americans that taxes are intrinsically evil.The fact is, taxes are a sign of civilisation & cooperation.

John

It's also important when discussing taxation and comparing different European countries' tax policies to North American policies, and to each others', to pay attention to how many taxing jurisdictions may be setting levies, anf how they're inter-related. <BR> <BR>In federal systems like the US, the central government's percentage may only represent 50% or 60% of the total taxes collected, maybe less, depending on how State or local governments tax their citizens, through property, use, consumption, or excise levies. In other countries, a value-added tax system (VAT or GST) is either a central or provincial government tax, in other places central government raises high taxes, but then distributes significant funds to provincial or local governments on a per capita or some other basis, with locally-raised taxes (or "rates") at a low level... there many cats and many ways to skin them. <BR> <BR>It seems to me that quality of life indicators are more meaningful than percentages, but there's no getting around a strong sense in N. America (especially the US) that individuals resent having choice (like how to pay for health services, for example,) removed from them by government, even if the result is a grossly uneven pattern of access to basic services.

Steve Mueller

Sjoerd, I appreciate your comments, but I am sceptical of your statement that the UK is one of the poorer EU member nations. Because definitions of "rich" and "poor" tend to be political in nature, I would have to know more details to be convinced. Meanwhile, consider a few simple facts- the GDP per capita in the UK is similar to other leading EU nations, and both UK tax rates and unemployment are among the lowest in Europe. <BR> <BR>There seems to be a pattern emerging among responses to this thread. While Europeans are divided about the benefits and the likelihood of success of unification, American responses tend to be more sceptical. This seems to reflect our different attitudes toward taxes. Americans are traditionally distrustful of "tax and spend" governments, whereas continental Europeans have a tendency to passively accept high taxation as evidence that the government "cares" and is doing something. The British appear to be somewhere in the middle, and this may be part of the reason for their ambivalence concerning unification. <BR> <BR>Liberal attitudes toward taxation may explain why many continental Europeans believe that Thatcher accomplished nothing signficant. After 18 years of conservative rule, the UK had the lowest tax rate of any major European nation. Americans call that "progress." <BR> <BR>Hans' statement that "free flow" of trade already exists in the EU, neglects the important fact that Britain currently controls its own taxation rate, as well as its own interest rates. Obviously, both of these affect production costs. <BR> <BR>The Dutch citizen doesn't object to 60% taxation because of a conviction that "a lot" is received in return. The American response, as John pointed out, is that you are sacrificing choice. If the product received is inferior (e.g., waiting in line for hours for health care), the Dutch have no recourse. Americans want a safety net for those that can't affort health care, but prefer that the rest have the freedom to choose their own plan with their own money. Americans trust their own judgement more than that of the state. <BR> <BR>Americans shake our heads in disbelief that the French remain so oblivious to the obvious connection between high unemployment and over-reaching social safety nets that overtax productivity and entangle the economy. This goes beyond generous health and unemployment benefits. The "state will provide for us" mindset ultimately results in zealous government agencies that inhibit new economic development. The personal computer could not have been developed in France, because the government would have been too protective of the jobs of typewriter manufacturers and repairmen.

frank

The "choice" to be screwed by a variety of different people is one we in the UK got used to in the Thatcher years - the word has a bad image here now! <BR>Also if you are poor & sick in the US you have a choice - steal or die.Isn't choice wonderful.You probably even get a choice of coffin colour! <BR>Sorry if I seem a bit cynical, but that word gets used by some very cynical people. <BR>Social benefits are excellent in Holland - there is no doubt that they get the value of the extra taxes as compared to the UK. <BR>Even if you receive no direct benefit yourself, you benefit by living in a better society, not a dog-eat-dog one.(you get to choose which dog you eat!) <BR>France developed its minitel network long before the rest of us were on the net.I agree that they are over - protective, but the result is that nearly everyone there has a SGS Thomson PC! <BR>Isn't the US still trying to tell us where we must buy our bananas?

Steve Mueller

Actually, Frank, poor people don't get to chose their coffin color. They all get a standard issue pine box. I don't think that it is painted or anything, which would make it kind of a neutral wood color. <BR> <BR>OK, sorry about the sarcasm, but it seems that a surprising number of Europeans have a view of American life that reflects cheap television drama more than reality. I don't know about Europe, but in the US a person is far more likely to steal to make money to buy drugs for "recreational" purposes than for medical purposes. American safety nets are not as generous as Dutch safety nets, but they do exist (e.g., Medicaid, Medicare, pre-natal programs for low-income mothers, etc.). <BR> <BR>Many Europeans are so accustomed to class conflict rhetoric and starving characters from Hugo and Dickens novels that they are incapable of an objective comparison of American and European economic systems. America is not Bangladesh, LA is not Calcutta. There are no starving people in the streets. No dead bodies to step over. I see more street people in Amsterdam than I do in Denver. <BR> <BR>Even your choice of words, "there is no doubt," suggests that you have been completely indoctrinated into the socialist ideology. When it comes to government, there is always doubt, and there should always be doubt. When your government has you believing that there is no doubt, you have become completely dependent upon the state. Do you really trust your government (or anyone else's for that matter) so much that it is beyond doubt or question? Most Americans would answer with a resounding "NO."

Sjoerd

Steve, last time I checked the UK was *just* below average on the list of EU countries sorted by GDP per capita. So it is indeed not one of the poorer EU countries. (Greece and Portugal are much poorer) <BR>Your point about "different attitudes toward taxes" between Europeans and Americans is a good one. Americans often consider taxes to be a penalty or fine, Europeans treat taxes as a normal payment for services (to be) received. As Frank noted, when given the choice, many Europeans prefer more government spending on health care, education, etc. to lower taxes. The Dutch government has a big budget surplus this year, and opinion polls show that about three-quarters of the Dutch population prefer more government spending to lower tax rates! <BR>Another point: government services are not necessarily bureaucratic and badly run. An example in the Netherlands is the tax office itself: since 1997 I can do my tax report online on the Internet via a very user-friendly application. Much better in quality than all private Internet applications that I have ever seen. Government is run as a company here in many ways, and democratically controlled, so again we are trying to combine the best of both worlds. <BR>No, I haven't seen people dying in the streets in the USA, but in all major US cities that I have visited (New York, Washington DC, Orlando, New Orleans, Denver, San Francisco, Atlanta and Los Angeles), locals have warned me about not going to some parts of town. When I went in spite of their warnings I was amazed by the poverty, number of street people, and 3rd World looks of those neighbourhoods. <BR> <BR>

Al

Americans have a long-standing love-hate relationship with taxes, going back to the days of the founding of the nation. "Taxation without representation is tyranny," still rings true in our ears. Only we have forgotten at times that escape from taxation leads to even worse. But, alas, we digress. The subject was European Union -- comments and predictions. Count me among the skeptics.

Steve Mueller

Sjoerd, <BR> <BR>One of your favorite publications, The Economist, recently reported that it is primarily the smaller and/or poorer EU member nations that most strongly favor unification. About 1/3 of French and Austrians, 1/2 of Germans and Finns, and more than 1/2 of Brits and Swedes have a negative view of membership. <BR> <BR>Taxes are about more than money. Attitudes toward taxation mirror preferences in style of government. This is why fundamental disagreements on tax policy represent a serious threat to unification.

Graziella5b

I always wonder how about the European citizen..... he has to pay taxes to keep alive not one but two governments bureaucracies....
And also has to follow so many laws in the name of this superpower.....at the end of the day, are they happier?
Just a thought.

chartley

Europeans do not pay taxes direct to the E.U. it is the national governments who pay. Some countries are net contributors, some are net receivers, and some just about balance.

Nobody enjoys paying taxes, but I think there is less angst about them in Europe. Our whole political system is generally to the left of yours. European taxes are higher than U.S. ones, but we get more back in the way of social support, and all countries have some form of national health provision. We don't have the burden of a big military.

The fifty or so years of European intergration and cooperation has seen democracy and freedom flourish.The fascist dictatorships of Spain, Portugal and Greece, and the communist regimes of eastern and central Europe have all changed into democracies with free market economies, and all this has been achieved without violence. The prosperity of peripheral areas like Ireland, Portugal and southern Italy has increased considerably.

Ingo

You cannot speak about income tax only. The whole tax system is different in each country. Also, did someone mention real estate taxes? For an average house in Germany, value about 250,000 Euro the tax is about 250 Euro per year. How much would that be in the US? It certainly differs from state to state, from town to town, though.

Back to the original question. I personally am in favour of the EU. So far we don't have a 'government' of the EU. The members' governments must agree with a qualified majority on the issues, in some cases even unanimity is required.

I have no fear that languages and cultural traditions will disappear. And, btw, I disagree on the 'MTV' generation thesis. My own generation grew up under the influence of MTV (mid 30s) and the now mid 20s did even more. I do notice that they are well aware where they are coming from, stick to their local culture and traditions, are proud of them. MTV (as a synonym) might have an influence, but it cannot wipe out the local/regional culture. I am speaking for regions with a strong tradition that goes back centuries, understand me correctly, please. It might be different in some regions in Europe.

I.

Aduchamp1

DeGaulle said how can you unite a country with 256 cheeses. Now multiply that by 27 countries.

As an American looking in, it is a more sterile view. The weight of the bureaucracy, the balancing of national and regional issues, and petty poliitcs are always near. My British colleague always denies that the EU was created to counter American economic interests. He insists it was created to counter British economic interests. But what does he know, he went to Oxford.

Someone noted that that as long as it successful, it will have a future but success destroys relationships as well.

I think it is extraorinary that it has come this far. But as a life long cynic and skeptic I am always looking at signs of fissures. And right now there doesn't seem to be any fatal flaws.

I also disagree with the economist who spoke of the MTV generation. (My nephew was an economics major and I chided him by saying that economics was the art of predicting and reacting to the past.) If anything I see countries holding onto their cultures as a way of separating their lives and the movement of a united economic and political entity.

And money and time will always be wasted by things like the renaming of the EU constitution to a treaty and then voting again. But what are layers of governemnt for, it not to waste time and money.

hetismij

I suppose you could blame the whole thing on the Benelux union, which is 60 years old this year.

ira

&gt;I always wonder how about the European citizen..... he has to pay taxes to keep alive not one but two governments bureaucracies.

I pay taxes to:

City of Madison
Morgan County
Morgan County Board of Ed
State of GA
US of A

That's 5 bureaucracies

Cowboy1968

Interesting that this debate can go on seamlessly after only 8 years between the posts

But seriously, many EU citizens forget the upsides of the Union. Most export/import is done between Member States, thus any liberalization of duties, procedures, regulations, etc. is good for commerce.

MTV is actually a good example - for the opposite. Today's MTV generation can choose between a multitude of MTV channels. MTV USA is not what you will see in Germany or Turkey. They watch their local &quot;ethnic&quot; spinoffs.

Brand or community building does not adhere to political boundaries but is more related to peer groups. Any urban 25yo in Spain or Germany or Austria will know what you can buy in a &quot;Zara&quot; store, while not many 60yo Germans or Austrians will know that.

Taxes.. you don't need a system of political subsidiary to come up with a huge tax bill. Some countries like Sweden successfully accomplished that task even before joining the Union.

When you travel 90% of your time within the Euro zone, and then for the first time have to pay to get one sort of bills exchanged into another sort of bills to buy the exact same products, you start to wonder what that fuss is all about. If some countries need that for ego-boosting, fine. I like the common currency a lot, simply because it makes things easier.

After all, nothing remains forever the same.

kenderina

The common currency is also useful to know how the prices levels are in the different countries when you travel. I like it a lot , really.
Since the euro change, prices have risen everywhere though and many older people find difficult to adapt, they still are doing mentally the change with our old currency (pesetas).

markrosy

The EU is great - you can buy lots of acres with no intention of farming and then claim lots of cash in subsidies for .... not farming. Great commercial sense. Most local councils (as landowners) claim the farming subsidies in the UK when they are actually prevented from farming due to their constitutions.

Worst thing about being outside the Euro is buying a pad in Spain then spending every other day watching its value in pounds bound all over the place due to forex dealers in the city. Oh and remembering to have some euro coins in your pocket to get the car out of the car park in Mallorca - yep just for that reason - Gordon could we join the Euro please?

travel_buzzing

&gt;&gt;animal-loving nations like France

Foie Gras?

lauralamb

I think the EU was created essentially to stop the wars between the various European countries by basically making them economically and perhaps even politically interdependant. It seems to be working OK so far!