European religious faith
 

Europe has hundreds of the most beautiful churches ever built yet religious faith has collapsed in much of Europe. Why? And, from a tourist point-of-view, who will take physical care of these architectural marvels when there are so few parishioners attending them? I'm told that, in the UK, Tony Blair wants to spend much less on tending these churches and many of the less famous will be allowed to decay as they stand.

Why ? because separation between church and state and religious diversity is a reality here. <BR> <BR>As for the buildings, they are considered an important cultural asset to everyone, regardless of personal faith, and not only as a way of getting money from tourists; therefore they'll be taken care of, except in countries that value money over everything.

And whilst your basic premise may be correct, whatever else one thinks of Blair, he himself is very religious indeed "churchy" I have certainly never heard such an opinion expressed by him.

Well...faith has nothing to with the beaty of cult buildings. Why faith collapsed so much in Europe...Well, I think I could ask this question the other way around : how, in a modern world so full of new ideas, faith managed to stay so living in the States? <BR> <BR>Concerning the churches : I don't know for other countries, but in France, the cathedrals are owned by the state, and the other churches by the towns or municipalities. <BR> So, it's the civil authorities who take care of the buildings, and the Church contribution tends to be very limited (let alone the local community of believers). As they're usually the most important local monument (or the only one), there's usually no problem, even though most of the people don't care about religion and never attend a religious service. <BR> However, it can happen that the renovation of a church become a local issue, due to its cost. I saw that in the little village where I've been brought up, where people were close to a civil war. <BR> <BR> I'm not sure of the status of the most recent buildings ( Church properties have been seized during the revolution), but I think that the newly built Evry cathedral (near Paris), for instance, is owned by the catholic Church. In the same way, the main Paris mosque (*) if, AFAIK, owned by an association grouping several islamic states. <BR> <BR> Concerning the upkeep of monuments, there's much more problems here with the numerous castles (I'm not speaking of the famous ones, like the Loire Valley castles,of course)than with the churches, which are usually maintained in a very good shape, even in the more secluded places. <BR> <BR>* : by the way, the mosque (traditionnal style) is really a fine and beautiful place to drink a minted tea, taste some oriental pastries or even go to the hamman, but halas more and more people, including foreign tourists, have heard of it...perhaps I should have stay quiet, but anyway it's too late..it's situated in the 5th arrondissement, close to the "jardin des plantes" . <BR> This part of Paris, though not heavily touristed, could be an interesting spot to spend an afternoon. One could choose to visit a museum : "museum d'histoire naturelle", "institut du monde arabe", a mineralogy gallery, (there's one in the "jardin des plantes" and another very close but more difficult to find in the modern Jussieu university),etc...pay a quick visit to the (not that interesting) arenas, walk in the jardin des plantes garden, drink a tea at the mosque, follow the quite famous rue Mouffetard (warning : most of the restaurants there aren't really good, but they're quite cheap)and end visiting the Pantheon church (well..in fact an afternoon could be not enough)

I'm not convinced that religious faith has collapsed in Europe. I believe faith is alive and kicking. What has deterioriated in the past few decades is church attendance. Church attendance and religious faith are not necessarily synonyms. <BR> <BR>A city tour guide told us in Copenhagen <BR>"Scandinavians go to church three times in their life -- when they're hatched, matched, and dispatched." Marie

There's no separation of church and state in Bavaria (all of Germany?)! The government will levy a religion tax of 10% if you choose a religion on your tax form. <BR>As for the rest of Europe, I don't see where religious faith has collapsed. Southern Europe seems especially religous.

The grand churches and cathedrals were built at a time in our history when religion was very much synonymous with the power of the state. Religion was used as a tool to keep the workers in quiet fear and to glorify the rulers. Whether you have faith or not, you have to understand that many of these buildings have more to do with corruption and fear than the glory of god. So the fact that attendance has dropped dramatically is hardly surprising. Perhaps it's because we don't get chucked into prison anymore if we don't go. Well thank God for that.

As the level of education increases, the level of faith decreases - this is universal. <BR> Religious faith is deepest in areas of the world with least education and is collapsing where educational standards are high.Fact. <BR> I offer no explanation for these facts, except that it makes more obvious the conflict between religion and rationalism. <BR> As for the buildings, we use many as bars, discos, casinos etc.They will stand or fall (literally) on their architectural merit.

Paige: Yes, the church tax is levied in all of Germany. If everybody paying the tax would attend church, they would be full, so the financial situation of the German religious organizations is good. This doesn't mean that the state and the church aren't seperated, they are just in other ways seperated than for example in the USA. The state supports the religious organizations (doesn't depend upon the faith) in financial ways which would be unthinkable in the USA. On the other hand, shows of faith by politicians commonly displayed in the USA, aren't acceptable political behaviour in Germany. Many people would feel uneasy about the influence of religion upon a politician and I guess that the equivalent of "God bless America" spoken by the German chnacellor, would result in a major political debate. Religious organizations have a lot of members and thus they get financial support by the state and have influence upon decisions. But this is also true for other organizations with a lot of members and if it is possible to financially support a soccer stadion, why shouldn't one support a church building? God or religious considerations don't enter the discussion and belong in the private life. <BR> <BR>kate: For example the Cathedral of Cologne was started by the citizens and not by the archbishop, who was also a worldly ruler. He was later thrown out of Cologne and resided in Bonn. Up to now, the Cathedral is owned by a private organization and not by the catholic church. Theoretically, the archbishop of Cologne has to ask for a permission if he wants to use the cathedral. Building the cathedral was a show of faith but also of pride in the own city and in the position the citizens had against the nobility. A city like Cologne was a free imperial city, subject only to the Emperor. As such, the city was as independend as any noble ruler of one of the German states. The citizens were proud of their rights and they liked to show this pride to the rest of the world. You can often find the situation that a city built its "own" church, sometime confronting the church of the local bishop and you can bet that they made sure that theirs was bigger.

We finally saw through the biggest con of all time.

Hans, that's interesting. Thanks. One thing I really like about living in Germany is that people seem to look on religion as a private matter. In the 2 1/2 years that I've lived here, not one person has preached to me, tried to convert me or even discussed their religious views with me. I agree that the U.S. doesn't always do such a good job of keeping church and state separate. The laws do, of course, but individual politicians seem to think they and their religion are above that.

1. Odd to see cathedrals referred to as "cult buildings." <BR> <BR>2. I know a lot of educated people who are believers. <BR> <BR>3. The first amendment of the U.S. Constitution guarantees freedom of religion, not freedom from it.

Carolyn, your third statement is a little off, in that it is a blanket statement regarding something that is and has been debated since the time the first ten amendments were adopted. The US Supreme Court, which is the arbiter of constitutional interpretation, has neither set nor adhered to any overriding precedent that settles the "freedom of" vs. "freedom from" question.

Sometimes countries turn their backs on religion and do shameful things like what the Germans, Russians and Chinese have done this century. Currently, post-Christian nations of the world conduct their own holocaust called abortion. Millions killed each year. We live in a time of affluent barbarism. <BR> <BR>And for the barb about rationalism and intelligence, I'd say that rationalism spawned the French Revolution, the nationalism which caused World War One, Marxist-communism and Nazism. As Chesterton once wrote, the atheist doesn't believe in nothing, he believes in everything. He was painting with too broad a brush, but he has a point. <BR>And, as for intelligence, one of the smartest blokes of the century was CS Lewis. Some of the dumbest are the non-religious who post naked pictures of themselves and their women on the plethora of Internet sites.

<BR>Carolyn : <BR> <BR>1) I used "cult building" since I didn't know of any english word synonymous with "church", or which would encompass synagogues, mosques, etc..So I used a litteral translation from french, hoping that readers would understand what I meant. <BR> <BR>2) No doubt that there's educated believers. But it's fairly obvious too that in the western world the progress in knowledge have provoked a decrease of the religious faith. <BR> <BR>3) I've no opinion about your constitution, but I would be frightened by a major world power which would not allow the freedom *from* religion. I think nobody needs a 280 millions people <BR>Afghanistan armed with nuclear missiles.

Agreed. It scares the hell out of me that US politicians bang on about good christian values all the time. How does that make Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddists, atheists etc feel? Surely America is a vastly multicultural society, or do only the white middle class have the moral prerogative. It's practically medieval! <BR> <BR>And of course Frank, no mortal crimes have ever been committed or wars raged in the name of religion, have they?????????????! <BR> <BR>Actually I live in a converted church which makes a fantastic home, so perhaps these "cult" buildings aren't pointless after all.

But we made the bleeding country, didn't we Kate.

Oh no, does that mean I'm related to Dubya?!! <BR> <BR>And if it's our fault (as everything always is), then why isn't it the same here?

Advanced education has less to do with the decline of religion than one might think. <BR> <BR>Corruption of morality has more to do with the decline. <BR> <BR>As for religious buildings, the big old beautiful ones we like to tour are just too expensive to keep going in alot of cases.

Lily, <BR> <BR>So all we European who don't have a religious faith have no morality ?

1. Faith isn't the same thing as religion, and neither is identical to morality. Sometimes you find them altogether which is, so to speak, a blessing. But religion to me is like placing a brand-name on faith and thereby can carry all kinds of extraneous limitations, accessories and requirements that get adherents in trouble. Big example: the idea that subscribing to any particular religion or sect means bashing every other one. <BR> <BR>2. In the US, religion (not faith) seems to be all tied up in our economic and political self-definition. We've justified all kinds of nonsense by referring to that oft-misquoted Amendment ('Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...') and piously assuming that having money and power is proof of morality -- specifically of the Christian sort. By defining the US in terms of having been founded by oppressed religious zealots, we continue to kid ourselves that internal problems have nothing to do with age-old racial and ethno-cultural divisions. So we get self-congratulatory and pious about dominant religions. Europe has had experience of diversity for much longer -- not necessarily doing well with the issue, mind you -- but those who have either faith or religion or both are much less likely to make it center-stage in the political arena (with the glaring exceptions at the far east and west of the region). <BR> <BR>3. Re:maintenance of architectural shrines. In Europe tourists are already beginning to take on the cost in a number of places! Ever pay many pesetas, lire, or francs to ascend to the top of a church tower? In the US we put our money into other architectural monuments -- sports arenas, malls, and theme parks come to mind. Yes, we are definitely a nation of cultists. <BR> <BR>

Florence I am terribly sorry that you misunderstood my statements. <BR> <BR>1. I would NEVER put people of Europe into a separate category from the rest of the world. <BR> <BR>2. My statement "Corruption of morality <BR>has more to do with the decline (of religion than advanced education)" has Nothing to do with YOUR religious faith vs. YOUR morality. <BR> <BR>3. It is impossible to have religious faith without morality.

I should add that although education drives out religion, being educated doesn't mean being right!!! <BR> A good education leads one not to accept facts without evidence and to consider alternative explanations. <BR> Religious doctrine, in the main, says "We are right & the rest of you are going to Hell." or worse. <BR>I'm afraid that's what I was taught in school, which meant that half my family, including my mother, were evil etc. etc. <BR>No wonder I packed it in. <BR>I'm afraid multicultural values don't sit well with with most religions.Thats another reason for the death of doctrine - the world is getting too small for all these guys to co-exist - they can't all be right you know! <BR>Most Europeans look on religious fanatics with deep suspicion, due to the well known intolerance of pious people.We have a lot of people trying to get along in a shrinking continent, these are not the attitudes we need.The US does not seem to have developed this view yet, or am I wrong? <BR> The churches will be looked after if they are good buildings. <BR>NB: anyone disagreeing will have their hands cut off...

Frank, you summed things up beautifully. <BR> <BR>Lily, the Taliban in Afghanistan, Buddhist and Hindus in Sri-Lanka, paedophile priests and the bishops that have done nothing although knowing what they were up to, to name just a few, all hold deep religious faith, but I would not rate their morality very highly.

The atheistic faiths of Revolutionary France, Nazi Germany and communist Russia, China, Vietnam, Bulgaria, North Korea, East Germany, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Lithuania, Hungary, Albania, Serbia, Croatia, Romania, Moldavia, Latvia, Estonia, Ukraine, Macedonia, Laos, Cambodia, Slovenia, Massachusetts (just kidding!)etc., etc. etc. have killed millions and millions more than any "irrational and senseless" religion. When a country turns its back on religion, anything goes, as Chesterton once said. Today all Western nations but Ireland practice fetal infanticide.

Fodors <BR> <BR>Clairobscur is of course right about France, but in Britain and I think Germany the state carries no duties towards the cathedrals and churches. In Germany the state collects taxes from those who declare they want to pay them, but not from others. In Britain the people who keep these fine buildings standing are in part the churchgoers, but more so the people who live nearby, whether they go to church or not, because they like having the building among them. These days there are funds, too, from the lottery board. This is useful, because church attendance is in steady decline in Britain -- and I think in Ireland and Scandinavia. <BR> <BR>All over Europe, you tourists are valuable supporters of such buildings. The more so, in that such places at St Paul's Cathedral in London and Canterbury Cathedral now charge a fairly high admission fee. They did it to cut the crowding, but a pleasant side effect is a steady income. <BR> <BR>Ben Haines, London <BR> <BR>

Separation of church and state is an American invention, and a great one. Just look at what went on in Ireland for hundreds of years if you want evidence for keeping the two apart. Remember: no priest went hungry during the Famine.