Bitter:

If the Basques interest you, you might want to read The Basque History of the World, by Mark Kurlansky, a fascinating and lucid account of a very complex culture and history.

Vincent, all Scandinavian countries belong to the Schengen area, even Norway and Iceland even though they are not even in EU. Finland uses euro.

Thank you all. I'm seriously humbled as I realize the depth of my ignorance! But one must start somewhere and your contributions are definitely helpful.
I am intriqued by the parties and terms used in Europe, such as "social democrat", because in the US everyone is basically characerized as being a degree of "left" or "right" and we (myself sometimes included) tend to label people as extremists (liberal, neo-con (whatever that is), conservative, right or left winger, etc.) if they do not aree with us. I wonder if we really understand what constitutes a truly extremist viewpoint. Perhaps we could learn from Europe to better define points along the left-right spectrum. By the way, it may be impossible for a 2 diminensional spectrum to remain static, because I suspect some views or issues that were once considered "liberal" or "conservative" are now moderate.
Your arguments regarding what we sometimes call "federalism", i.e. the degree of control a union (such as the United States of Europe, the EU, etc.) would have over the individual "states" or countries, are all arguably valid in that after 200 years the US is still shifting power back and forth b/t the states back to the Federal government to some extent. Unification may help with some issues, but will create new ones (but you know that). Anyway, I cannot feign to contribute much to this thread, but will continue to watch and learn.

Elina, point taken about Scandinavia and Schengen. That said, do Finns consider themselves "Scandinavian" or just "Nordic" ? (totally candid question, I'd like to have the opinion of our Finnish friends).

Bitter, don't feel humbled, you are showing curiosity, which is great. What you say about the flexibility of the political spectrum also applies to Europe: Tony Blair's government is formally left wing, being Labour, but its "social" policies have officially broadened the gap between rich and poor in Britain. Actually, it takes so much of the right-wing political space in the UK that the official opposition, the Conservatives, have no breathing space any more: Labour basically approves all of the COnservatives' agenda, and vice-versa, but with the advantage of having more charismatic and talented people at prominent posts, hence the demise of the Conservatives. In France, the former socialist government was considered too luke-warm by parts of its electorate and generated a 15 % strong extreme-left opposition (but seriously extreme: we are talking about self-confessed Trotskyites ! ), who contributed to Jospin's defeat in last year's presidential election. Even if "objectvely", Jospin's policies were the most left wing of all EU governments. Yes, it's gonna be hard to unify this continent of ours !

This is a very serious discussion, so I must ask, do you think Ahnald will change the California state motto to "The best activities for your health are pumping and humping"?!?

To Vincent: I consider Finland as Scandinavian when it comes to the society, way of life and values. But as a person I am not Scandinavian.

Me, too! Like Bitter, I feel humbled by my lack of knowledge of contemporary Europe and am in a total learning mode here.

Thanks all who have so thoughtfully posted, especially Vincent, with your long and detailed discussions.

Personally, I believe that threads like these are just as important to our travels in Europe as threads that discuss what kind of shoes to wear, which train to take, and so forth. Hope there will be more threads like this one!

Thanks again!
Jason

As for Bitter's question, I would suggest Luigi Barzini's The Europeans as a helpful book. Barzini is better noted for The Italians, which is more dated as it came out in 1960 (dated in that he, for instance, scoffed at the idea that Italy would ever have divorce laws- how wrong he was!). However, The Europeans is one of his last books and is a pretty good overview of how each of the major Europeans powers view themselves and the future federation of Europe.

Just a note about the different attitudes that prevail on the two sides of the Atlantic pond. About a year ago, an English butcher was brought to court because he violated the EU mandated metric system when he weighed meat. He was convicted. Not only would that not happen in the USA due to our Constitutional Rights, it is also to be noted how much a failure the government effort to force the metric system down our throats was in the 1970s. The American people didn'twant itand convincingly told the political class to stuff it. One of the things I like best about my fellow countrymen is that we enjoy disobeying the government and we revel in questioning authority. I think this attitude is not as strong in Europe.

Steve,
On this side of the Atlantic we like to to think the same about Americans... too docile and easily lead and nearly bolshie enough. However before this remarkable thread degenerates into a US/Europe thing I'll try to bring it back on course.
You mentioned the greengrocer who was tried for continuing to sell his bananas in pounds and not kilos. This was a cause celebre in the UK and illustrated a fundamentally different way in which the British approach EU regulations than do all our neighbours. The British Government ensures that all such laws are enforced regardless of what the British people as a whole or individually may think of them. Thus we uphold the rule of law and keep anarchy at bay.
And yet as a nation we both admire and decry the French people and governments (together with the Italians and Puruguese and everyone else) who routinely ignore all such laws that they deem ludicrous and un-french or un-whatever!

Dr D.

Doc, give me stone, yards, feet and pounds any time. Both pounds.

Steve, not to undermine your essential thesis, but how is breaking statute law allowed in the US? Where is the constitutional right to sell in pounds and ounces? I'm not being a smartass. I really want to know.

I think George Dubya is more fascist then any current European leader I can think of.

roterbaron, do you call anybody you don't like a fascist? Please back up your opinion of GWB with some solid facts. We need some laughs so please reply ASAP.

ATTN: TULIP: You remarked that people get the gov't they deserve. For a long time, I've been trying to find out what that quotation really was and who said it - I'm thinking Franklin and "In a democracy people get the gov't they deserve." Anyone have info?

Great thread. I know that Fodors has the political taboo going, but it's nice to see that the majority of posters here are covering the subject AS a subject, and not as an agenda.

In this context, I think it's a valuable subject. My guide books are full of historical references to location, which is great and appreciated in terms of understanding static sites. But half the enjoyment of traveling, for me, is not just the places, but the people. I know I've read enough posts about mingling in the local culture to know I'm not alone. But how many things are more informative in understanding your destination than in understanding it's current state, including the directions of it's current government?

Excellent question posed, Bitter. I know you were taken to task for it elsewhere, but I for one appreciate the chance to learn about the underlying social structure of a place and it's people tick, and vice versa.

umm,

and <i>what makes</i> it's people tick

Shanna:

I did a search on Ask Jeeves and came up with the following:

&quot;...in a democracy, people usually get the kind of government they deserve.&quot; Adlai Stevenson

&quot;People get the government they deserve.&quot; Jean Paul Richter

Hope this helps!
Jason

Somebody please tell me why politics is so two dimensional, so black and white, so right-wing and left-wing (and who decided on these things anyway - a journalist??).
Why can't we approach the structure of societies and politics and trade and political alliances in the same way that we live, in three dimensions, in full color, and changing as we travel through time??

A.B.

Dr DoGood, after having lived four years in London, I can tell you that anarchy is not at bay on the measure front. My local grocer, or the market where I used to shop, used to advertise their prices, it seems randomly, either in kilos or in pounds. To my knowledge (and probably to the Daily Mail's despair), no police constabulary ever came to fine them! And think about the confusion facing the poor foreign motorist: petrol is sold in liters, but distances are in miles (BTW, SteveJudd, if it were sold in gallons, the contenance would be different from &quot;your&quot; gallons) ! Temperatures are usually shown in Celsius, but sometimes in Farenheit. So all of this makes for some harmless and charming anarchy.

More seriously, Dr, I agree with you in being ashamed that my country, France, big lecturer in European unity, is the least compliant when it comes to obeying EU regulations. Latest example: France's (and Germany's) outrageous refusal to comply with the 3 % rule that they themselves initiated and voted (for our American friends: when the Euro was decided in the early 90s, the future countries part of Euroland committed themselves not to let their budget deficit slip beyond 3 % of their GDP). That said, if I may add, it is easy for Britain to comply... when there isn't much to comply with, ie when you have opted out of such essential European projects such as the Euro or Schengen, and that, on top of that, you only pay two thirds of your contribution (for our American friends: an old agreement negotiated under Thatcher, but that still holds).

But to end this post on an Entente Cordiale (100 years next year ! ) mood, I will agree with the Dr when he seems quite surprised at SteveJudd's declaration of how today's American people are rebellious and don't take what the government tells them for granted. Yeah... WMDs in Iraq? Iraq at the source of 9/11 (65 % of Americans still think that there were Iraqis among the 9/11 hijackers)? Uranium bought in Niger? GW Bush disguised as a fighter pilot on a ship &quot;at sea&quot;? Saving private Lynch? It seems that the more obvious the propaganda, the better it goes down with the American public, not really in a questioning mood nowadays it seems...